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Thread: Required to present ID while OC?

  1. #1
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    If an LEO is giving you a difficult time while you are leagally OC'n, are you in Michigan required to present identification? Or can you continue to wash, rinse, repeat?

    Can a link be given to this law?

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    There is no stop and ID law in Michigan. If you are concealed carrying or carrying in a car under the authority of a CPL, you are required to show ID ad CPL if stopped. Aside from that, there is NO law that says you must show ID for no other reason than carrying. Open carrying is completely not mentioned in the disclosure section of the law.

    As I told the oakland county sheriff's department, this isn't nazi germany, and you don't need walking papers. Actually, we were eating when they harassed us, so my stupid joke has always been that they should have asked "vere are your mastication papers?"
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Here is the text of the disclosure section of the law. Notice how it specifies concealed.





    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 372 of 1927


    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to police officer; violation; penalty; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.
    Sec. 5f.
    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.
    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:
    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.
    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.
    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.
    (4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.
    (5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:
    (a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.
    (b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.
    (6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.
    (7) A pistol carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.
    (b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.
    (8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.

    History: Add. 2000, Act 381, Eff. July 1, 2001 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 719, Eff. July 1, 2003 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 194, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    If you are just out for a walk, or in a park you are not required to show ID, in fact many people here suggest what is called "sterile carry" which means not carrying any ID at all.

    Read this newsletter that was sent to LEO agencies, it has a lot of good info and may explain better. just open the link and click on the pdf file.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25744.html

  5. #5
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    You dont need to. Although you dont know the situation so make sure the LEO isnt responding to something that you may fit the description. It doesnt hurt to find out what he wants before you give the cold shoulder. No need to be rude.


    Freedom isn't free, but this is America! We will find a way to outsource it and save some money - Jeremy

  6. #6
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    jeremy05 wrote:
    You dont need to. Although you dont know the situation so make sure the LEO isnt responding to something that you may fit the description. It doesnt hurt to find out what he wants before you give the cold shoulder. No need to be rude.
    Even if they got a call, remember, it means nothing. The SCOTUS has ruled that mere possession of a firearm, if possibly legal, is not reasonable suspicion for a Terry stop.

    I consider it a complete mistake for ANY OCer in Michigan to treat police as though they may have friendly intentions if they stop you and take any steps to assert their authority. The wash rinse repeat method are useful, as is offering to talk to them in writing at a later date, but refusing to discuss anything verbally or on the spot. I mean no offense to police by saying that, but it's a fact that some have been and still are out to get us. We all have to cover our ass, just like they do.

    I have high hopes that Michigan police will be at a wide spread higher level in coming years just like Arizona is now, but there is a lot of ground to be covered to get there.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  7. #7
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    jeremy05 wrote:
    You dont need to. Although you dont know the situation so make sure the LEO isnt responding to something that you may fit the description. It doesnt hurt to find out what he wants before you give the cold shoulder. No need to be rude.

    I was stopped in my car for OCing. I was in a store and security called the cops, they stopped me after I was driving, and they knew who to pull over because the security guard followed me and gave a complete decription of me, the vehicle make/model, and the plate number.

    I did not have a CPL at the time, so when I was pulled over I wasn't CCing since the gun was in the trunk seperated from the ammo. I still had to provide ID since I was driving. If I was on foot, then I wouldn't have had to .

    It was my first LEO encounter (for OCing), so I was nervous (which is what they want), and figured I wasn't breaking any laws so I will be nice and cooperate. In my honest opinion, I don't suggest cooperating. Police play games with citizens (remember "Good Cop, Bad Cop"?) but all many of them are doing is investigating YOU! Anything you say, can and will be used against you in a court of law, of course you aren't reminded this until they slap the handcuffs on you and stick you in the back of the squad car, but before they say that your ENTIRE encounter has been recorded on video and audio. That too can be used in a court of law against YOU!

    It's up to each individual how they want to handle the situation, but I suggest covering your a$$ and saying a little as possible.

    Here is a link to a story about my police encounter. Read it and see what some police officers try to do to law abiding citizens.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/28859-1.html

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    Here's something I just thought of for those of you who decide to provide ID to an LEO when asked for it. Just give them your MOC member card! :what:

  9. #9
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    When asked if you have ID, just say "Yes, I have my teeth".

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I tend never to actually answer a question. I just say that "I am busy; I need to go now". I have used this about 10x, for various reasons, and works well. The moment that you seem "evasive", you are starting to build a case for RAS (yes, there are 2 court cases that I know of that state you can refuse to answer, but an evasive answer does raise the suspicion level and were subsequently upheld as a part of RAS).

    My advice: Don't answer the question. Either state: "I'm busy and need to go" or, even better, "Am I free to go?". Some OCer's in California ask "Is this voluntary or mandatory" when asked for ID...kind of gets right down to the important point. If they say that you must, then state that you "do not consent" but still do as the officer demands. You do not need a charge coming out of this "stop".
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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