Last Night - Attempted Home Invasion at My House

Skeptic · Aug 8, 2009

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Too bad you couldn't hear him well enough to hear if he threatened you with bodily harm either, just the threat could be assault in most jurisdictions.

The after action talking is something I am really familiar with - and a lot of what comes out at those times is not necessarily what I was trying to convey, sometimes even hard to understand. Which is why if I ever actually shoot someone defending my family or myself, I know I need to fight not to talk and ask for my lawyer, even if it is a by the numbers kind of thing.

Dutch Uncle · Aug 8, 2009

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Others have commented that other charges should have been bee filed against the perp. Since you say he put cracks in your door frame, that means destruction of property, which will cost you to have fixed, I guess! He should have been charged with that! He may just be some common drunk, and may not even have two nickles to rub together, but its the principle of the thing!

nobucks · Aug 8, 2009

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I thought that as well, when the officer asked me if I could hear anything else he said other than the profanities. Those came through loud and clear and I told my wife as it was happening, which she relayed to 911. Unfortunately, everything else he said was muffled.

We'll be going to see the police chief on Monday. I'll let you know how it turns out. If the situation were reversed and it was me who was beating on the door and almost got shot and still might get jammed by the cops, I'd have headed back to IL the next day.

When I say that I think I could have legitimately fired through the door, I still believe that it would fall into the Michigan Castle Doctrine, which states:

(a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business premises or committing home invasion or has broken and entered a dwelling or business premises or committed home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business premises, or is unlawfully attempting to remove another individual from a dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle against his or her will.

http://law.onecle.com/michigan/780-criminal-procedure/mcl-780-951.html

I obviously felt the guy was a threat to me and my family or I would have gone down and opened the door to find out what he wanted. :shock:

Had I shot him through the door (or inside for that matter) I'm sure that his family would have been on TV saying, "He was such a nice boy! He was just out having a good time, had a little too much to drink, and got confused! He probably just wanted directions back to his friend's house!"

I was not in a hurry to shoot anyone for a variety of reasons.

jadedone4 · Aug 8, 2009

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nobucks wrote:

I thought that as well, when the officer asked me if I could hear anything else he said other than the profanities. Those came through loud and clear and I told my wife as it was happening, which she relayed to 911. Unfortunately, everything else he said was muffled.

We'll be going to see the police chief on Monday. I'll let you know how it turns out. If the situation were reversed and it was me who was beating on the door and almost got shot and still might get jammed by the cops, I'd have headed back to IL the next day.

When I say that I think I could have legitimately fired through the door, I still believe that it would fall into the Michigan Castle Doctrine, which states:

(a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business premises or committing home invasion or has broken and entered a dwelling or business premises or committed home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business premises, or is unlawfully attempting to remove another individual from a dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle against his or her will.

http://law.onecle.com/michigan/780-criminal-procedure/mcl-780-951.html

I obviously felt the guy was a threat to me and my family or I would have gone down and opened the door to find out what he wanted. :shock:

Had I shot him through the door (or inside for that matter) I'm sure that his family would have been on TV saying, "He was such a nice boy! He was just out having a good time, had a little too much to drink, and got confused! He probably just wanted directions back to his friend's house!"

I was not in a hurry to shoot anyone for a variety of reasons.

... and those variety of reasons are part of the "cool-head" approach that you took to a tactical situation - good decision-making in a stress-induced situation.

The cops actions suck - and do NOT instill confidence in the general public (not to mention your young ones who now have a "real-time" image of what cops do). Not saying ALL cops react the same; but when a situation such as this occurs, you/citizens expect protections.

nobucks · Aug 8, 2009

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The officer that I talked to, a young guy, obviously the lowest ranking guy on site, plus, he's on the night shift, was not happy with the fact that they were letting this guy go. He was apologizing up one side and down the other. He even said, "If it were up to me..." I think the officer in charge made the call. I'm going to ask the police chief on Monday if this is SOP for violent drunks. If he blows us off, I may talk to the local newspaper about this.

That said, I do appreciate the fast reaction time that they had, getting here as quickly as they did. Lights were on, no sirens. Plus, it was fun to watch the show in the yard out my daughter's window.

Re: the CCW question, a cop acquaintance of mine suggested that asking about CCW saved the responding officers a whole lot of time by not having to run my name through the system to find out if I could legally have a gun.

Asked in the context it was, i.e., after I asked him if I should unload the gun, I think he just wanted to gauge my level of training and whether I had secured the gun safely.

Nutczak · Aug 8, 2009

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Good choices all around by the OP, I would pursue this further to have the perp be made to pay for damages. I bet the door frame is considerably weakened from his attempts to enter.

I just had my GF read your story, And here is what she had tosay.

"I would have opened the door just so he didn't bust up the frame, then if there was anything left of him after the dog got donechewing onhim, I still would have shotthe stupid drunk SOBjust for being so stupid and trying to break my damn door!" and then she wandered off into the family room mumbling "damn drunks"

I have one of those GF's that it is in my best interest to be afraid of her.

Sonora Rebel · Aug 8, 2009

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Attempted B&E

Drunk and disorderly

Criminal trespass

Destruction of private property

... Yet these humps charged him with nothing? Whatinhell kind'a police you got up there?

John Wolver · Aug 8, 2009

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not good ones.

propertymanager · Aug 9, 2009

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If he blows us off, I may talk to the local newspaper about this.

Writing a letter to the editor or allowing thenewspaper to do a story on this will probablydo wonders!

I had a seasoned criminal (more than 200 arrests, including violent felonies) arrested for criminal trespass at one of my apartment buildings. He would hang around, claiming that he had a gun, and was simply dangerous. The prosecutor let him out after only 15 days on a plea bargain. I wrote a scathing letter to the editor challenging the competency of the prosecutor. I also called city council members and generally made a big deal about how poorly the laws were being enforced.

The DAY AFTER he got out, he was back trespassing and violated a restraining order I got against him. This time, he spent 48 days in jail and went to trial. Subsequent to that, he spent nearly 6 months in jail and then wastaken to a mental institution. That letter to the editor is whatmade all that happen. IfI hadn'twritten that letter,he would be out on the street today.

Milbars · Aug 9, 2009

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Here I was reading this story, thinking to myself along the way "BG does this, that's breaking and entering, BG does that, trespassing, BG does this, destruction of private property/vandalism, case closed...he's lucky to be alive to regret his actions" and lo and behold he gets NOTHING??? I sat up in my chair and actually yelled WTF?? This is definitely negligence/laziness of the officers who responded. Thank god you had a cool head; I would've hated to see how this would've turned out had you been forced to pull the trigger. Always a sad day when I hear news like that from my home state (which is about everyday unfortunately).

nobucks · Aug 9, 2009

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I talked to a Wisconsin sheriff's deputy buddy of mine this evening and he told me that before I went to the chief, I should get a copy of the police report and find out if they at least cited him with public drunkenness. If they let him go scott free, then I should talk to the chief.

I'll let you know what I find out. I may also post a copy of the report and the 911 call if I can get it.

Joel

pyite · Aug 10, 2009

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In for updates.

nobucks · Aug 10, 2009

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Here's what I know so far:

Our guy was cited for Minor In Possession of Alcohol. He's 20 years old.

The report they gave me was just a summary, as, apparently, and here comes the big surprise (not), he's a suspect in several break ins on Thursday night, so they're not finished with the paperwork on the report because of the possible tie to the others.

They told me to check back a few days from now for the report.

The door frame is cracked running up the middle of both the deadbolt hole and the door latch hole. I don't know how much monetary damage was done. I'll talk to my insurance agent tomorrow.

rpyne · Aug 10, 2009

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nobucks wrote:

The door frame is cracked running up the middle of both the deadbolt hole and the door latch hole. I don't know how much monetary damage was done. I'll talk to my insurance agent tomorrow.

It is likely to run at least a few hundred dollars to restore the strength and integrity of the door frame. If they do anything less than completely replace that side of the frame along with reinforcing or replacing the underlying framework, it will leave the door frame weakened and unable to withstand another similar attach. It would also be wise to replace the lock bolts as they have now been stressed and weakened.

zack991 · Aug 10, 2009

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nobucks wrote:

Here's what I know so far:

Our guy was cited for Minor In Possession of Alcohol. He's 20 years old.

The report they gave me was just a summary, as, apparently, and here comes the big surprise (not), he's a suspect in several break ins on Thursday night, so they're not finished with the paperwork on the report because of the possible tie to the others.

They told me to check back a few days from now for the report.

The door frame is cracked running up the middle of both the deadbolt hole and the door latch hole. I don't know how much monetary damage was done. I'll talk to my insurance agent tomorrow.

I am glad you and your family is ok, the bad guy is extremely lucky that door held him back. This guy is rolling the dice and one of these times he is going to roll snake eyes. Now I sure your going to be on your toes for the next couple weeks, most failed break in, the would be robber trys again. So keep your eyes peeled.

MSC 45ACP · Aug 15, 2009

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Good job keeping your cool, nobucks. Good situational awareness and decision making process. You did the right thing not shooting through the door. If you have JP's in your pistol they wouldn't go much farther than the door, anyway. Probably a good thing you didn't have a rifle. If you had a shotgun, would the BG have been able to hear you chamber a round? Maybe, maybe not. You can Monday-morning quarterback yourself to death over this, but you did the right thing.

I had a "Large Angry Mexican" try to carjack me in the middle of the day when I lived in Houston. Long story short, I didn't shoot him when I legally could have. I'm glad I didn't... Too much paperwork. Turned out he was a convicted felon and went back to the pokey for a LONG time under Texas' 3-strike rule. Pulling the trigger may solvean immediate problem, but leads to MANY more problems down the road. Don't do it unless its the ONLY option remaining.

You did the right thing!

Semper Paratus!

HankT · Aug 16, 2009

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nobucks wrote:

Anyway, I was glad I had the gun, or we would have been sitting up with the phone, hoping the police could get here before he got in and hurt us. Instead, I was hoping they'd get here before he ran away.

The weirdest part about it was that when I went to bed at 2 AM I had the oddest, uncomfortable feeling that something bad was going to happen tonight.

Many prayers of thanks that it turned out with no deaths.

I'm glad you and your family are safe. I think you and your wife did very well in handling the situation.

Especially positive was your adherence toHankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense (HPCSD):

It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.

Your incident confirms, once again, the wisdom, validity and accuracy of HPCSD.

If you had shot the drunken dolt, you would have regretted it very much. Your family, too.

Remember, HPCSD ALWAYS applies.You followed HPCSD perfectly. Good on you.

nobucks wrote:

As far as shooting him through the door, I feel that I would have been justified. I did have an internal discussion with myself though. Two or three times I suggested to myself that I should pull the trigger, and my inner voice said, "No, don't shoot through the door. You can't see a clear target."

Nah. Given the circumstances you described, it would have been very foolish to shoot through the door. It would have been unethical, too.

You did the right thing by not succumbing to the temptation to take advantage of an impromptu execution opportunity (IEO).

nobucks wrote:

As far as a round in the chamber or not, I'm reevaluating everything right now.

This part has me stumped. You'd presumably thought all this through before at your leisure. Then, made your decision to go C3.

Your incident's detailssupporttotally the notion that having a handgun in C3 is a fine choice since you predict you will have sufficient time and opportunityto rack the slide.

The facts show that you already made the right decision--given your own unique circumstances and needs.

No need to reevaluate.

BTW, don't you have a 12 guage?Ifthere is anything to learn about hardware in your incident, it's that you could havehad a better weapon at hand.

Glad you and yours are OK. And bad luck about the cops not locking the drunk guyupfor something. He clearly violated the law in some manner. That's poor police work,IMO.

32HR MAG · Aug 16, 2009

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I am so glad that you and yours are OK after this incident.If they don't throw the book at him and put him away ,he will do worse.

I for one am glad you did not shoot.It could have been a real mess.

Maybe the media would be interested in the story.

nobucks · Aug 16, 2009

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32HR MAG wrote:

Maybe the media would be interested in the story.

I don't want to defecate where I live. These cops are protecting the community I live in, and they did cite the guy, as it turned out, and he may, or may not be a suspect in other crimes, so he may still get what's coming to him.

Do I wish the LEO's had done more? Definitely, esp. considering the potentially deadly outcome this almost had. Could they have done better? Sure. But I'm not interested in jeopardizing their jobs over this. What's done is done.

HankT, I wasn't thinking What Would Hank Do? :lol: I had a number of different odd thoughts about the door at the time, that was just one of them. Another was, "If I shoot through the door, we're going to need a new one." Biggest probably was if I shoot I want to have absolute justification for doing so, which was also being established via the 911 call. Had he come in, I wouldn't have waited to see what he wanted. I'll just say that I am glad I didn't have to shoot, and I'll let it at that.

The 12 ga. Mossberg was in the garage at the time, and I went with what I had at hand. Had he known what he was doing (and not been drunk) he could have been in the house before I had gotten out of my room. I'm glad he gave us so much warning and that the police arrived when they did.

TriCityOC · Aug 21, 2009

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John Wolver wrote:

snip...

On the plus side, very well handled sir, very well handled. Too bad the cops didnt do their jobs and hit him with trespassing, disorderely conduct, intoxicated in public. I would contact the chief of police, mayors office, someone and ask why not.

+1 The cops should have easily been able to charge him with Criminal Trespassing. I would definitely complain. Also, if the cop got a positive ID of the subject before turning him loose then there will be written reports of the incident. A complaint to the Prosecuting attorney's office would probably still result in charges being filed. So it isn't too late to see this guy spend some time in jail.

Last Night - Attempted Home Invasion at My House

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