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Detained for CC

SANDRAT

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Glocked and Loaded wrote:
I have a $5 holster from walmart that I find more comfortable then my $60 Serpa..

Kinda pisses me off that something so cheap is more comfortable... :?
Have you ever tried the stock Glock holster?They look cheap,but work really well,under $20,I think.
 

Kildars

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Just to let you know unpublished opinions hold no precedent. They can not be used to justify anything, or outlaw anything.

Also, disarming for officer safety would occur AFTER there was reasonable suspicion for a stop then finds a firearm. The officer who stopped you had no reasonable suspicion that you were committing a crime. This was an illegal detainment, illegal seizure and an illegal search (running your name & guns serial is a 'search'). Had you had a stolen weapon, or something, it would have been tossed.


I'm not an attorney, just taken a few Search & Seizure classes.
 

antispam540

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Kildars wrote:
Just to let you know unpublished opinions hold no precedent. They can not be used to justify anything, or outlaw anything.

Also, disarming for officer safety would occur AFTER there was reasonable suspicion for a stop then finds a firearm. The officer who stopped you had no reasonable suspicion that you were committing a crime. This was an illegal detainment, illegal seizure and an illegal search (running your name & guns serial is a 'search'). Had you had a stolen weapon, or something, it would have been tossed.


I'm not an attorney, just taken a few Search & Seizure classes.
See, we get this, and then we get people saying it's legal to stop, search, and seize because he was CCing. I don't know who to believe :banghead:
 

Kildars

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antispam540 wrote:
Kildars wrote:
Just to let you know unpublished opinions hold no precedent. They can not be used to justify anything, or outlaw anything.

Also, disarming for officer safety would occur AFTER there was reasonable suspicion for a stop then finds a firearm. The officer who stopped you had no reasonable suspicion that you were committing a crime. This was an illegal detainment, illegal seizure and an illegal search (running your name & guns serial is a 'search'). Had you had a stolen weapon, or something, it would have been tossed.


I'm not an attorney, just taken a few Search & Seizure classes.
See, we get this, and then we get people saying it's legal to stop, search, and seize because he was CCing. I don't know who to believe :banghead:
If you want I will cite case law that supports what I post. An officer can not just walk up to you, handcuff you, and disarm you because you're carrying. It's illegal.
 

1245A Defender

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i copied this out of another topic and its old. this makes sense! we need to learn our rights, and we need to learn how to stand up for them!

I've been meaning to say this for some time:

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!!!

Not under your breath... OUT LOUD!
I don't care if someone sees you rambling to yourself.. PRACTICE.

Practice not only the text, but also the tone, and yes even facial expression.

It's amazing how much of a tongue twister 'Reasonable articulable suspicion" can be when you're flustered. Muscle memory works not just for Martial Arts and Music, but also for speech.

I remember back at the Picnic at long lake park this past summer I was going over my 'script' with some folks and telling them that my theory was that opening with "Am I under arrest?" would catch them off guard and probbably result with a response to the negative. but at that point it was just THEORY.

My theory was proven correct on Nov 21. When asked to produce ID, I countered with "Am I under arrest?" The brief flash of uncertainty (fear?) on the Officers face before he (almost) stammered "Uhh.. no" was priceless and bolstered my confidence more than any thing else I can think of would be able to. I knew right then I had 'em by the short 'n curlies!

I followed up with "Am I being detained?" At this point I think he detected my increased confidence and decided to push back. by responding "At this point, YES!"

I countered with with an all business, yet polite demand (not to be confused with a request) to "Articulate your reasonable suspicion that I am enganged in an unlawful activity!"

His response of "You're wearing a gun!" solidified my conclusion that they HAD no RAS, and that I was on the legal high ground at that point. I dug in and fortified my position from there on out. They never did manage to find out who I was (that night) and they were forced to let me go (but not before committing several [highlight= #ffff88]state and federal crimes....some of them felonies)

PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!!! It's AMAZING how easily the words tumble out when You have them practiced.
 

joeroket

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Kildars wrote:
antispam540 wrote:
Kildars wrote:
Just to let you know unpublished opinions hold no precedent. They can not be used to justify anything, or outlaw anything.

Also, disarming for officer safety would occur AFTER there was reasonable suspicion for a stop then finds a firearm. The officer who stopped you had no reasonable suspicion that you were committing a crime. This was an illegal detainment, illegal seizure and an illegal search (running your name & guns serial is a 'search'). Had you had a stolen weapon, or something, it would have been tossed.


I'm not an attorney, just taken a few Search & Seizure classes.
See, we get this, and then we get people saying it's legal to stop, search, and seize because he was CCing.  I don't know who to believe :banghead:
If you want I will cite case law that supports what I post. An officer can not just walk up to you, handcuff you, and disarm you because you're carrying. It's illegal.

Please do. I would like to read it.
 

cynicist

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I think the final question has boiled down to this:
If an LEO has knowledge that a person is carrying a firearm concealed on their person, is that in itself justification for a Terry stop, since carrying a concealed firearm without a license is a gross misdemeanor?

Case law (sort of) demonstrates that LEOs can demand to see a CPL, but does this amount to a seizure of the person and an investigatory stop, or merely verifying that the person in fact has a license?

Also, in Georgia, a man filed suit in March of this year in a Federal court after being detained for poorly concealing on public transit. Lets see how that goes.
http://www.georgiacarry.com/marta_raissi/complaint.pdf
 

1245A Defender

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i wonder why CC is different than driving? you need a license for both of these legal activities, and both licenses say i have to show it to LEO when requested. CCing without a license is ilegal, so is driving without a license, but we all know the cops cant just pull over a car to check for a proper license. why does it seem that they could "just pull over" a "known" CCer to check for the proper license?
 

joeroket

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2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
i wonder why CC is different than driving?   you need a license for both of these legal activities, and both licenses say i have to show it to LEO when requested.  CCing without a license is ilegal, so is driving without a license,  but we all know the cops cant just pull over a car to check for a proper license. why does it seem that they could "just pull over" a "known" CCer to check for the proper license?

It really should not be. However there is an CW that allows a State Trooper in a marked car and during daylight hours to perform a stop to verify a valid operators license and/or perform an inspection of the vehicle. Is it lawful and constitutional? I say no but the courts assume every law is constitutional until challenged.
 

Kildars

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I have not forgotten about this thread, I have emailed my Search & Seizure law professor to email me cases he knows of that will prove what me and others have posted about this being an illegal detainment/seizure/search.

A good place to start would be to read the Law Enforcement Digest.

Can be found for free https://fortress.wa.gov/cjtc/www/led/ledpage.html there.

It's a great resource regarding search and seizure cases and other law enforcement related opinions from both washington and federal courts.
 

Kildars

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Looks like M1Gunr did my work for me.

2. Non-consensual police stops of open carriers for simply open carrying is per se unlawful.

As you and your deputies should already know, it is not unlawful to openly carry handguns in Washington, and that like most states, no license is required to open carry on foot, and local ordinances to the contrary are unlawful as a matter of state preemption law. RCW 9.41.290. The United States Supreme Court has established that it is a violation of the Fourth Amendment for the police to seize a person absent reasonable articulable suspicion ("RAS") of crime afoot. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968). Accordingly, the Washington Court of Appeals has recently affirmed a trial court's holding that Washington law "does not and, under the Constitution, cannot prohibit the mere [open] carrying of a firearm in public." State v. Casad, 139 Wash.App. 1032 (Wash. App.Div.2 2007) (suppressing evidence of unlawful possession of firearms because stop of Defendant was not grounded in reasonable articulable suspicion of any crime).

Further, even during a valid Terry stop, the United States Supreme Court forbids police to even conduct a light pat down or seize weapons unless the subsequent to RAS for the stop, the "an officer is justified in believing that the individual whose suspicious behavior he is investigating at close range is [both] armed and presently dangerous to the officer or to others." 392 U.S. at 24. Stated another way, only "o long as the officer is [both] entitled to make a forcible stop, and has reason to believe that the suspect is armed **and dangerous** . . .may [he] conduct a weapons search limited in scope to this protective purpose." Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S. 143, 146 (1972) (emphasis added). So even if there were there to come a time that a Washington law enforcement officer properly seizes a person pursuant to RAS for brief investigatory purposes, the officer is not entitled to seize an openly carry weapon absent "reason to believe that the suspect is . . . [also presently] dangerous." Id. Should an open carrier stopped validly under Terry consensually produce a Concealed Pistol License, this fact weighs heavily against any officer's claim that the suspect is "presently dangerous" such that the gun maybe lawfully seized and serial numbers obtained. Accordingly, suppression of any evidence obtained in seizing the gun is likely under these circumstances.

3. Nonconsensual stops of open carriers to demand identification or check gun serial numbers is unlawful in Washington.

A mere report of a man with a gun is not grounds for a Terry stop. Florida v. J. L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000). Americans cannot be required to carry and produce identification credentials on demand to the police. Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352 (1983). Washington does not have a "stop and ID" statute. However, even where a state enacts a "stop and ID" statute, stop must be limited to situations where RAS exists of a crime, and further, stop subject's statement of his name satisfies the ID requirement as Kolender, discussed supra, has not been overruled. Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004). Even where a state has established a duty to carry a license for some activity, absent RAS for the stop, the license cannot be demanded. State v. Peters, 2008 WL 2185754 (Wis. App. I Dist. 2008) (driver of vehicle has no duty to produce driver's license absent RAS) (citing Hiibel). Law enforcement officers seizing persons for refusal to show identification are "not entitled to dismissal of . . . [42 USC 1983 claims] based on qualified immunity." Stufflebeam v. Harris, 521 F.3d 884, 889 (8th Cir. 2008).

4. Editorializing against open carry is not the province of law enforcement.

If your deputies have any objection to open carry, they should contact their state legislator on their off duty time and not use the color of authority behind their badges and uniforms to stifle both the right to bear arms and the First Amendment right of expressive conduct to open carry firearms.

5. Unlawful stops of open carriers will result in suppression of evidence even if unlawful conduct is uncovered, allowing criminals to get off the hook.

In Casad, see supra, the Appeals court suppressed evidence of the unlawful possession of firearms because law enforcement seized a man for merely openly carrying firearms in public. This result is not unusual, see Goodman v. Commonwealth, 2007 WL 2988343
(Va.App. 2007) (same result as Casad), because the result is as a matter of federal Constitutional law commanded by the United States Supreme Court. As discussed supra, see Florida v. J. L.; Hicks.

6. No qualified immunity available for law enforcement officials regarding open carrier harassment in Washington.

As it is clearly established law that the open carry of handguns in holsters is lawful without a CPL, qualified immunity does not attach to your deputies for the unlawful harassment, ID checks, see Stufflebeam, discussed supra, and gun serial number checks, see also Hicks and J.L, discussed supra. Further, by way of this webform email I am putting you as the Sheriff, and the Office of the Sheriff, of actual notice in this matter, subjecting you to personal liability for damage claims under 42 USC 1983. See Will v. Michigan Dept. of State Police, 491 U.S. 58 (1989); Ex parte Young, 209 U.S. 123 (1908).

7. In conclusion, please know that it is the constitutional right of open carriers to enjoy the same freedom of movement and right of assembly in society as those wishing to carry concealed, or not at all. The purpose of law enforcement is to help ensure open carriers enjoy these freedoms, not to stifle them. Please contact me by email at your earliest convenience to confirm that your deputies will cease harassment of open carriers immediately.

I have bolded and underlined the most important part.
 

cynicist

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That's a very good writing on OC and IDs and serial numbers and whatnot, and I think that hits a little bit on my issue, but still is there anything regarding concealed carry, and what steps may an officer take when verifying that someone has a license? Specifically, is someone carrying concealed RAS?
 

cynicist

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Found something of interest:
State v Giles, published in part Giles contends that Officer Crivello seized him by questioning him about the gun and his criminal record without a valid independent investigative basis to do so. But Officer Crivello had specific statutory authority to ask whether Giles had a permit for his obviously concealed gun. In relevant part, RCW 9.41.050(1) provides:... And once Giles admitted that he had no such permit (in contrast to not having his permit on his person), Officer Crivello had a reasonable suspicion that Giles was committing a crime and, thus, had a basis to briefly detain him to investigate. See RCW 9.41.810; State v. Kennedy, 107 Wn.2d 1, 4, 6-7, 726 P.2d 445 (1986)
Code:
It appears that only after he was aware that he had a pistol CCed without a license did he have RAS. However, this does not go all the way to say that he did not until then.
Worth further investigation.
 

Kildars

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cynicist wrote:
That's a very good writing on OC and IDs and serial numbers and whatnot, and I think that hits a little bit on my issue, but still is there anything regarding concealed carry, and what steps may an officer take when verifying that someone has a license? Specifically, is someone carrying concealed RAS?
No, concealed carry alone is not RAS because concealed carry is legal in WA State.
 

1245A Defender

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cynicist wrote:
Found something of interest:
State v Giles, published in part Giles contends that Officer Crivello seized him by questioning him about the gun and his criminal record without a valid independent investigative basis to do so. But Officer Crivello had specific statutory authority to ask whether Giles had a permit for his obviously concealed gun. In relevant part, RCW 9.41.050(1) provides:... And once Giles admitted that he had no such permit (in contrast to not having his permit on his person), Officer Crivello had a reasonable suspicion that Giles was committing a crime and, thus, had a basis to briefly detain him to investigate. See RCW 9.41.810; State v. Kennedy, 107 Wn.2d 1, 4, 6-7, 726 P.2d 445 (1986)
Code:
It appears that only after he was aware that he had a pistol CCed without a license did he have RAS. However, this does not go all the way to say that he did not until then.
Worth further investigation.
help me please! im tryin to lookup state v giles, but no joy. was it about a gun in his waist band at a gun show? are these the same? are there two? can someone point me to it?
 
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