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Thread: Iraq Veteran Killed By Deputies

  1. #1
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    A distressed veteran was killed in Howell yesterday by trained swat officers. The former sniper was waving an M-16 at officers and telling them to "Shoot me, shoot me." One of the deputies complied.

    I am furious. This man that put his life on the line for two tours of duty was a trained marksman and ran a business called ProSoldier. The business was dedicated to enhancing the professional soldiers ability to move, shoot and communicate.

    It seems to me that after all the calls the Sheriffs dept had to this sick mans address and all the intel that they had prior to this event which included his army background and knowledge of his current business along with the information that he'd just been served divorce papers, they would have had a better handle on what to do.

    The man was a trained sniper with a world class weapon in his hands. He had no intention of harming any officer! It was suicide by cop as the sheriff stated in the paper. A knuckle dragging low brow gun happy gung ho over equipted crew cut wearing over eager idiot that murdered this man!

    It did not have to happen. Where were the less than lethal measures? Where were the tazers? Where were the nets? Where was the negotiater?

    To many of these kids are coming home with problems and not getting the right help and we turn our back on them. It makes me sick! There was an APC on the scene for Gods sake. Why did he have to be murdered. He waved a gun at a cop. Right. This guy was a pro and if he ment them any harm he would have rained hell down on them. He was sick and the brown shirts killed him.

    we're gonna' lose a lot of heroe's this way and nobodys going to say anything...

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    While tragic, and yes, more vets are going through PTSD more than ever, would you be willing to get within 21 feet of someone holding an M-16?

    Didn't think so.

    LEO's are damned if they do, damned if they don't in this kind and many other situations. And always have a Monday morning quarterback to tell them what they should have done.

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    the people should absolutely demand the total and complete disbanding of ALL swat teams nationwide. They are soldier wannabes, they get a kick out of it.

    The "swat" person who killed that soldier should be put on trial for murder.

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    suntzu wrote:
    the people should absolutely demand the total and complete disbanding of ALL swat teams nationwide. They are soldier wannabes, they get a kick out of it.

    The "swat" person who killed that soldier should be put on trial for murder.
    Are you kidding? 80% of SWAT officers come from the military. They are not "soldier wannabes" because what SWAT does and what the military does is as different as night and day. Different objectives and different missions. You can't compare them at all, aside the fact that they both carry weapons. On top of that, what were the officers suppose to do? Wait for the guy to shoot them before they opened fire?



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    Pay close attention this time...The guy was a former sniper and if he had any intention of shooting any of these swat personel the ground would have been littered with corpses! As far as these guys being ex military, nope. They come from the academy barely twenty one and get a badge and a gun and get out of jail free card. They are very different from military. They have absolutly no concept of God and country nor honor. Its a pass to be a bully and maintain an adrenelin rush.

    It was murder. It did not have to happen!

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    Then please, enlighten us on what should have happened....





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    They had an APC on the scene. It they were concerned for the saftey of the mans family they could have been evacuated and then the cops could have withdrawn. It was a rural setting and the guy was on meds. The whole thing transpired in a matter of about four hours. They could have waited him out. They knew his entire history.See hometownonline.com 08/11/09

    He did not have to die!

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    rj3663 wrote:
    SNIP The guy was a former sniper and if he had any intention of shooting any of these swat personel the ground would have been littered with corpses!
    Without knowing what alternatives were first tried, I can't really speak to the necessity.

    I do want to contribute on one very important, but almost always overlooked, point. Its not something people think about much, so its easy to overlook:

    If a person is suicidal, he is by definition homicidal. His lethal intent can shift from himself to others in an instant at his own choice, meaning people there to help have little or no control over it. In scenarios like reported in the OP, the suicide-wisher is disturbed/unbalanced/psychotic. This is not the sort of mental condition where a calm even keel is prevailing.

    I don't know about this particular suicide, but it seems to me entirely possible for a mentally disturbed person to become angry or enraged that the police are defying his wish to be shot, and then start shooting at police.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    rj3663 wrote:
    Pay close attention this time...The guy was a former sniper and if he had any intention of shooting any of these swat personel the ground would have been littered with corpses! As far as these guys being ex military, nope. They come from the academy barely twenty one and get a badge and a gun and get out of jail free card. They are very different from military. They have absolutly no concept of God and country nor honor. Its a pass to be a bully and maintain an adrenelin rush.

    It was murder. It did not have to happen!
    How do you know how old they are, what sort of concept they have, or what their background is? Do you know them all personally? What does religion have to do with this? It sounds like you're bringing up a whole bunch of irrelevant stuff to start an argument

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    rj3663 wrote:
    A distressed veteran was killed in Howell yesterday by trained swat officers. The former sniper was waving an M-16 at officers and telling them to "Shoot me, shoot me." One of the deputies complied.

    I am furious. This man that put his life on the line for two tours of duty was a trained marksman and ran a business called ProSoldier. The business was dedicated to enhancing the professional soldiers ability to move, shoot and communicate.

    It seems to me that after all the calls the Sheriffs dept had to this sick mans address and all the intel that they had prior to this event which included his army background and knowledge of his current business along with the information that he'd just been served divorce papers, they would have had a better handle on what to do.

    The man was a trained sniper with a world class weapon in his hands. He had no intention of harming any officer! It was suicide by cop as the sheriff stated in the paper. A knuckle dragging low brow gun happy gung ho over equipted crew cut wearing over eager idiot that murdered this man!

    It did not have to happen. Where were the less than lethal measures? Where were the tazers? Where were the nets? Where was the negotiater?

    To many of these kids are coming home with problems and not getting the right help and we turn our back on them. It makes me sick! There was an APC on the scene for Gods sake. Why did he have to be murdered. He waved a gun at a cop. Right. This guy was a pro and if he ment them any harm he would have rained hell down on them. He was sick and the brown shirts killed him.

    we're gonna' lose a lot of heroe's this way and nobodys going to say anything...
    Let's ALL pray that you or any of us EVER have a need (situation) where we require the Special Weapons And Tactics of the specially-trained LEO's to intervene on our or family's behalf.

    The soldier needed help; his CO, his unit, his family, the VA failed him - IF - there was failure to recognize the symptoms of PTSD. He/soldier had a responsibility to seek out help/assistance - we all cannot go it alone. It is a horrible, horrible shame that this occurred, but the LEO was doing EXACTLY what the soldier was trained to do, during his two tours - protect the innocent; soldiers/LEO's don't pick the rules, they take an oath... and achieve the objective.


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    arron

    I'm familiar with a lot of them. I worked for court services and my wife was also a county employee. I've been involved for twenty years in the local recovery community and have been very involved with the probation parole departments both district and circut. Its not a religous statement but while I'm at it this country, whose rights were fought for by this man, has its roots set in religous freedom. You won't take my gun or my right bear it any easier than you will take my right to belive in a God of my understanding. Don't hide behind the anonimity of of thisforum to make statements like that.

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    rj3663 wrote:

    arron

    I'm familiar with a lot of them. I worked for court services and my wife was also a county employee. I've been involved for twenty years in the local recovery community and have been very involved with the probation parole departments both district and circut. Its not a religous statement but while I'm at it this country, whose rights were fought for by this man, has its roots set in religous freedom. You won't take my gun or my right bear it any easier than you will take my right to belive in a God of my understanding. Don't hide behind the anonimity of of thisforum to make statements like that.
    I think we're straying from the topic now.

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    arron, We sure are. Check hometownonline.com for the story from todays paper. I feel very strongly about this and feel that it didn't have to end this mans life. There was another situation less than two weeks earlier here that involved the same departments and a different vet that ended without his death. I have a strong feeling that someone felt like an opportunity was missed. The cops in this area have a history.

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    rj3663 wrote:
    A distressed veteran was killed in Howell yesterday by trained swat officers. The former sniper was waving an M-16 at officers and telling them to "Shoot me, shoot me." One of the deputies complied.

    I am furious. This man that put his life on the line for two tours of duty was a trained marksman and ran a business called ProSoldier. The business was dedicated to enhancing the professional soldiers ability to move, shoot and communicate.

    It seems to me that after all the calls the Sheriffs dept had to this sick mans address and all the intel that they had prior to this event which included his army background and knowledge of his current business along with the information that he'd just been served divorce papers, they would have had a better handle on what to do.

    The man was a trained sniper with a world class weapon in his hands. He had no intention of harming any officer! It was suicide by cop as the sheriff stated in the paper. A knuckle dragging low brow gun happy gung ho over equipted crew cut wearing over eager idiot that murdered this man!

    It did not have to happen. Where were the less than lethal measures? Where were the tazers? Where were the nets? Where was the negotiater?

    To many of these kids are coming home with problems and not getting the right help and we turn our back on them. It makes me sick! There was an APC on the scene for Gods sake. Why did he have to be murdered. He waved a gun at a cop. Right. This guy was a pro and if he ment them any harm he would have rained hell down on them. He was sick and the brown shirts killed him.

    we're gonna' lose a lot of heroe's this way and nobodys going to say anything...
    While Isympathise with you in that so many soldiers are summering from PTSD from so many combat tours... There are many stories of soldiers coming home and they kill cops, others, andthemselves. Anyone remember the soldier in the rain poncho that called the police? He killedone or two cops and hurt a few more.

    How you can claim the soldier had no intent to cause harm to anyone is beyond me. I guess you are his best and closest friend or a family member. But even then... you never really know what is on someones mind.

    I do not know the details on why the shot was taken but it seems to me that they would do all the could the same as in the YouTube Video posted above. I suspect lethal force was taken when he made a threatening gesture.

    You do not user less lethal measures on a guy with a gun. Imagine hitting him with a taser. He goes down and pulles the trigger. He shoots someone and now the cops are in hot water. They cannot win.

    So you may want to watch the words you use and not speak on behalf of people with mental disorders claiming you know their intent. Nobody knows.. maybe they do not even know what they will do.

    You can also tone down the allegations of murder and try to think a little clearer after you get more details. More than what you posted here so far.


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    rj3663 wrote:
    arron, We sure are. Check hometownonline.com for the story from todays paper. I feel very strongly about this and feel that it didn't have to end this mans life. There was another situation less than two weeks earlier here that involved the same departments and a different vet that ended without his death. I have a strong feeling that someone felt like an opportunity was missed. The cops in this area have a history.
    I'm sure you do feel passionate about this unfortunate event, but I also thinks your blanket attack to SWAT teams across the nation, calling them "wannabe" soldiers, is offensive, when their mission has nothing to do with the U.S. Military

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    rj3663 wrote:
    arron, We sure are. Check hometownonline.com for the story from todays paper. I feel very strongly about this and feel that it didn't have to end this mans life. There was another situation less than two weeks earlier here that involved the same departments and a different vet that ended without his death. I have a strong feeling that someone felt like an opportunity was missed. The cops in this area have a history.
    Are you kidding?

    Because they talked they guy down and no shots were fired.. they had to "make up for the lost chance" to kill someone?

    You really do have a warped idea of law enforcement.

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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    suntzu wrote:
    the people should absolutely demand the total and complete disbanding of ALL swat teams nationwide. They are soldier wannabes, they get a kick out of it.

    The "swat" person who killed that soldier should be put on trial for murder.
    Are you kidding? 80% of SWAT officers come from the military. They are not "soldier wannabes" because what SWAT does and what the military does is as different as night and day. Different objectives and different missions. You can't compare them at all, aside the fact that they both carry weapons. On top of that, what were the officers suppose to do? Wait for the guy to shoot them before they opened fire?

    If a school trained sniper had wanted to take on a "swat team"--do you actually think he would have done so in the open, or would he conceal himself, draw swat out and then pick them off?

    If this sniper had wanted to kill the police--he would have done so.

    Yes, they are soldier wannabes. Either they could not hack it in the military or could not get in...so they became police and go out and like to dress up and play army. They have Army hair cuts, they try to dress and act like the military, they try to carry military weapons, they ride around in armored cars....they are soldier wannabes.

    yes, you are actually correct--the job of the military and the police are as different as night is from day...So why is it exactly that the police like to play Army so much?

    Yes all--and I do mean ALL "swat teams" should be disbanded, and the police absolutely forbidden to ever play army again.

    The "officer(s)" who killed that man should be in jail.

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    Someone has gotten a lot of tickets....unjustly of course.

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    rj3663 wrote:
    A distressed veteran was killed in Howell yesterday by trained swat officers. The former sniper was waving an M-16 at officers and telling them to "Shoot me, shoot me." One of the deputies complied.
    The country is being destroyed by the police.

    They look for every excuse to kill a citizen. They are a far greater problem than the crime they claim to prevent. Wait, what crime do they prevent?

    Know these three truths:

    1. The police are a standing army whose enemy is the people.

    2. The police are the greatest threat America has ever faced.

    3. America would be better off without the police.

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    Any given one of us would have had to of been there to truely assess the situation and feel the air for what was about to happen next, I feel this soldier will be wearing wings of RED/WHITE and BLUE, it's sad that he fell the way he did,But Swat/LEO are trained and function under certain guidelines, if any wrong doing transpired, the investigation will hopefully be unbiased. I only hope their was a high ranking militaryofficer/commander called in to try to make this soldier stand down before the Swat made their decision..

    Rest in peace Hero!!

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    You do not user less lethal measures on a guy with a gun.
    You absolutely do. That's why you have them. The whole idea is for police to put themselves at risk to subdue the citizen with no citizen loss of life. Just as firefighters put themselves at risk for the citizen, even if the citizen got himself trapped in a fire he may have started, so the police risk themselves for the citizen.

    There is no preexisting right to go home at night when you take the public's dollar.

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    I'm as disgusted with the police state as the next guy, and I avoid siding with the cops like the plague, but how else was this supposed to go?

    Ifa robber was standing in front of you waving an automatic weapon in the air, are you not going to shoot him on the basis of: "well if he wanted to kill me he would have already"?? Are you kidding me?

    Is it possible the guy had psychological problems? Most definitely. Was that the time and place to call the psychologist? Absolutely not. Society's failure to take care of him occured long before the incident that ended his life.

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    suntzu wrote:
    the people should absolutely demand the total and complete disbanding of ALL swat teams nationwide. They are soldier wannabes, they get a kick out of it.

    The "swat" person who killed that soldier should be put on trial for murder.
    I see young bleeding hearts like you still have hope in the system. So naive. So innocent. Those with a bit of experience have seen far too much of this and know that due process does not properly attend when the military executes civilians. He should be immediately brought to a secret overseas prison and given a summary trial for war crimes. When cops start being executed for crimes against humanity, they might drop the sick fetish of sport killing civilians.

    We are subjugated to a terrorist, unaccountable, army.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    You do not user less lethal measures on a guy with a gun.
    You absolutely do. That's why you have them. The whole idea is for police to put themselves at risk to subdue the citizen with no citizen loss of life. Just as firefighters put themselves at risk for the citizen, even if the citizen got himself trapped in a fire he may have started, so the police risk themselves for the citizen.

    There is no preexisting right to go home at night when you take the public's dollar.


    I suppose you've got a point here. I'm still hard pressed to break from my original opinion though.

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