New carrier in NW MO, CC/OC dilemma

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Greetings all! I found this site through a link on a friend's Facebook page - if NewZealandAmerican, aka Kiwi is on here, he's the culprit. I've read with a good deal of interest the CC/OC discussions in "Why Open Carry", and have become quite convinced that, until CC becomes legal without a permit, OC is the way to go. My trouble is the 'spotty coverage' OC gets in MO.

First, a little back-history: I've been handling and hunting with shotguns, rifles and pistols (following the four Coopers as taught to us by my old man) since I was 7, so as far as I'm concerned, firearms have always been around, and I was taught the proper 'healthy fear' and respect for the power. I passed the NRA's Hunter Safety course in 2003 (required for those born after Jan. 1973, lucky me), which served as a refresher course of my early training.

Shortly after my wife and I moved here last fall - last fall being a VERY tense time for firearms aficionados everywhere - we picked up a couple semis for PD. We also enrolled in and took the MO CCW course (to the tune of $125 each), and each passed with flying colors.

We then enquired as to the rest of the process, and found out about the background checks, the additional $100 fee, the waiting period, the being-on-file-with-the-feds, etc. Being a Claire Wolfe fan, I balked bigtime. Claire herself advocates AGAINST the CCW permit, simply on the grounds that it's a PERMIT, and you're begging for permission to do what should be a right. But, I'm preaching to the choir here.

Since then, I've been torn. I know that, since there's no preeminence law, it's up to the individual jurisdiction (and sometimes even up to the individual cop) as to whether or not to let OC 'fly'. That said, I could OC all week long and never get a sideways look (except from some sheeple, or maybe being asked to leave a store), but there's always going to be the one-bullet Barney Bad@$$ who decides he's gonna make a big case out of it to justify his tin star (no offense to LEOs here, my cousin is one up in St Paul, MN and astounds me with his tales of Barneys he's met). I also know that, even up here in the 'tall grass' away from the cities, some sheep will bleat "MWAG!" and be all afraid, and that's just nonsense and heat I don't need.

On the other hand, I just can't sit right with the whole 'permit' thing. I mean, I'm sure I'm already on someone's watch list just for having come to this site, but there's no sense in GIVING my rights away, only to have to RENT them back on a 3-year basis, unless they decide I've done something wrong and they rescind it completely, never to return.

On this last point, my wife seems to think that we've gone to enough conservative/ Constitutionalist / Homesteading / SHTF websites and bought books and stuff from them that we're already on some list somewhere, so what's the big deal about getting a permit? They already know about our sidearms because of the electronic rape we got when we picked them up (FBI background check, which for some reason doesn't apply for a CCW app), so having a CCW on file is nothing. We disagree on this point so far. She maintains that she will NOT carry unless she has a CCW, I won't carry WITH one. So far, I've been stretching the 'castle doctrine as pertains to one's motor vehicle' a bit, and rehearsing the phrase, "Oh, sorry, I must have forgotten to leave it in the truck," but I know that'll only work once.

What's a newb to do? I want to carry.. scratch that, I SHOULD carry, just on the principle that we ALL should. I think I NEED to carry, to feel I'm worth my salt as an American and as a divinely-ordained and self-determining man. I don't want the permit, don't want to freak the populace OR the local constabulary... "I'm so confused!!!"

Thanks for any guidance you can offer.

Nick

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Welcome to Missouri, the mandatory safety hunter education course applies to anyone born after Jan. 1967. I don't yet OC due to the fact that Missouri is so screwedup for every mile you travel and plan on OCing and I don't strap a holster on just to have to remove my sidearm everytime i get out of the vehicle, Once the state is fully preempted, then I'll OC.

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n9viw wrote:

So far, I've been stretching the 'castle doctrine as pertains to one's motor vehicle' a bit, and rehearsing the phrase, "Oh, sorry, I must have forgotten to leave it in the truck," but I know that'll only work once.

What's a newb to do? I want to carry.. scratch that, I SHOULD carry, just on the principle that we ALL should. I think I NEED to carry, to feel I'm worth my salt as an American and as a divinely-ordained and self-determining man. I don't want the permit, don't want to freak the populace OR the local constabulary... "I'm so confused!!!"

Thanks for any guidance you can offer.

Nick

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Car carry is ok, either way (open/concealed). If you have particular questions, just let us know and we can try to help get the answers. Welcome to the site.

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Welcome to OCDO!

I am in the same barrel as you, but only with a C&R FFL.

I have gone through the process of MO CCW, and would recommend going through with it.

Pro's:

1) It allows you to legally carry anywhere you are allowed to do so without the worry of being "hassled". It's a comfort to know you're "legal".

2) It also allows you to carry in other states that recognize our CCW "permit". Something you can't do without one.

3) It affords you the opportunity to meet "face to face" with your local chief LEO. I was pleasantly surprised by mine, and now I know who he is, I've struck up conversations in the grocery store upon encountering him. Since I open carry, this has proven to be a blessing. If I am ever hassled about it, it has given me an awesome reference. I can refer them to my local sheriff who has personally witnessed me open carrying. So how can there be a problem? I wasn't arrested before, and the chief LEO himself saw me doing it.

Con's

1) Yes, you are personally admitting "being allowed" to do something you technically shouldn't need a licence to do.

2) Yes. You will probably be put on a "list" somewhere. You probably already are.

3) I dunno. I'm sure there's a third "con" someone else can think up.

What it boils down to is this: You are still the only one who can make the decision for you. I can commiserate with you on the "giving personal info to the government" thing. As I've said, I'm wondering about applying for my C&R. This means having my background checked by the BATFE. I'm not happy about mailing anything with my name on it and a request to purchase machine guns to the very organization known for kicking down doors of people with machine guns. But hey, I know several people who've evidently done this, and they have some cool stuff. My desire for this cool stuff is starting to override my apprehension about the means to acquire it.

As for OC, if you are going to do so, just be very careful to do thorough research about the areas that have NO ordinances against it (where it is implicitly allowed) and areas that do forbid it. As there is no state pre-emption, OC is affected by local ordinance, whereas concealed is untouchable statewide!

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Superlite27 wrote:

As I've said, I'm wondering about applying for my C&R. This means having my background checked by the BATFE. I'm not happy about mailing anything with my name on it and a request to purchase machine guns to the very organization known for kicking down doors of people with machine guns. But hey, I know several people who've evidently done this, and they have some cool stuff. My desire for this cool stuff is starting to override my apprehension about the means to acquire it.

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Superlite, check out getting a NFA trust for your class 3 weapons. I think you will like this option. http://www.nfa-trusts.com/and http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/

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Superlite,

Thanks for the detailed reply! While it doesn't make me feel any better about it, it does make sense for me to go ahead with the CCW plans. Our county (Worth) doesn't seem to have any ordinance against OC, but Nodaway certainly does, as does Harrison, both of which we're liable to go to for stores, etc on a bimonthly basis or more often.

My wife has already suggested to the sheriff that he might get more CCW applicants if he made the app fee a little more reasonable (since it's completely up to the sheriff as to how much over the state deputy and FBI fees they charge), but we haven't checked back to see if he's given it any consideration. Even $150 is better than $200, and less would be better yet.

Nick

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n9viw wrote:

Superlite,

Thanks for the detailed reply! While it doesn't make me feel any better about it, it does make sense for me to go ahead with the CCW plans. Our county (Worth) doesn't seem to have any ordinance against OC, but Nodaway certainly does, as does Harrison, both of which we're liable to go to for stores, etc on a bimonthly basis or more often.

My wife has already suggested to the sheriff that he might get more CCW applicants if he made the app fee a little more reasonable (since it's completely up to the sheriff as to how much over the state deputy and FBI fees they charge), but we haven't checked back to see if he's given it any consideration. Even $150 is better than $200, and less would be better yet.

Nick

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http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000101.htm

10. For processing an application for a certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, the sheriff in each county shall charge a nonrefundable fee not to exceed one hundred dollars which shall be paid to the treasury of the county to the credit of the sheriff's revolving fund.

Are you saying your sheriff charged you more than this statute states??

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Well, I got my MO CCW before I found OCDO and learned about this side of things. However, I recently got my NH CCW because with a MO CCW one can only carry in 35 of the 36 reciprocity offering states. I don't like the concept of having to carry a gov't permit to exercise a constitutional right, but then I also don't like going unarmed and I certainly have no desire to pay a huge fine, spend jail time or totally lose my RKBA because I don't have a CCW and misread or misunderstand a non-preempted ordinance or because I unknowingly crossed a jurisdictional line.

I realized that I really didn't have all that much privacy anyway and having a CCW wasn't going to really change anything. I acquired several firearms back when the local LEO had to sign off on a permit to purchase so "they" already know about those arms and I have had several NCIC checks. My father has had a top secret DoD clearance for about 40 years (as do many of my parents friends) so I have no doubt that I am in someone's file. I had a security clearance in ROTC - nothing high but they did run some kind of background check. I was a personal reference for 2 friends who joined alphabet agencies requiring security clearances and had to agree to a background check and personal interview to be a reference. I own a business that requires a state professional license. I have a personal state professional license and have held others previously in other states. I am active in some business related political organizations through major political parties. I am active on some public firearm forums and some political forums. ETC.

In other words, I am and was already "in the system" so to speak. I didn't and don't think that applying for and obtaining a MO CCW and other states' CCW is going to flag me any more than I am likely already flagged. Putting up with the myriad hassles of NOT having a CCW (and MO is pretty damn good given that you can carry in 35 states with it) was worth it to try to somehow maintain a fantasy that I could stay off the radar.

For those who are more off the radar to start with perhaps it is worth the hassles to stand on principle and not obtain a CCW. It wasn't worth it to me.

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Carnivore wrote:

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000101.htm

10. For processing an application for a certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, the sheriff in each county shall charge a nonrefundable fee not to exceed one hundred dollars which shall be paid to the treasury of the county to the credit of the sheriff's revolving fund.

Are you saying your sheriff charged you more than this statute states??

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Carnivore,

No, no, I'm sorry. I didn't put it the right way. When I spoke of "$200" or "$150", I meant for BOTH of us, me and my wife. That'd be $100 each, which as you noted there, is the "not to exceed" value. My point was, it's up to the SHERIFF as to how much he will charge. We opined that, were they to lower the price, they might get more CCWers than they have.

Deepdiver,

You also make some really good points, thank you. While I don't think I'm on a hot watch list or anything, I'm certain I'm on the radar, as you say, for having perused a variety of homesteading, political, and personal protection sites. I can't exactly claim I'm 'invisible', so standing on this principle is like drawing a line in the sand during a windstorm- doesn't mean much!

I also don't want to wind up fined or jailed for carrying improperly, whether I claim amnesty via 2A or not- we've seen how far that brick flies. I obviously want to carry, and want to stay on this side of the law, so in spite of my opinions and principles (and the focus of this site), it looks like CCW is my next route. This brings up a new question, though: would another state's permit allow more reciprocity than MO's? I've heard of people getting CCWs from Florida, Utah, etc. - would one of those have better state coverage, and still be reciprocal with MO?

Thanks,
Nick

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n9viw wrote:

This brings up a new question, though: would another state's permit allow more reciprocity than MO's? I've heard of people getting CCWs from Florida, Utah, etc. - would one of those have better state coverage, and still be reciprocal with MO?

Thanks,
Nick

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A MO CCW allows CC in 35 of the 36 states that offer reciprocity (Wyoming is missing but Wyoming is a gold star OC state so that really isn't a big deal as you just OC. I have been in contact with the AGs office on the Wyoming issue and even posted their cogent response as to why we don't have reciprocity with WY). Furthermore, several states only offer reciprocity to people with CCWs issued by their state of residence. And even more further and such that P) some states such as NH require you have a resident state CCW to obtain their non-resident CCW.

In other words, if you are going to get a CCW MO is a good one to have. I am not aware of any non-resident permit that gives the coverage that a MO CCW does.

I got my NH non-resident permit simply to gain that 36th state. When I applied the fee was still $20 for a 4 year permit so well worth it. It is now $100 for 4 years making it less attractive as all it gains me is a school zone exemption in NH and CC in WY, neither places that I spend a lot of time.

MO gives reciprocity to all other 49 states' (56 if you are an Obama democrat) concealed carry permits.

For more info see: http://www.handgunlaws.us

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Diver,

Thank you for all the detail! I guess that cinches it. As much as it grinds me to get a CCW, the cases and points you and Superlite made pretty much tipped the table over on me.

Now, as far as MO OC is concerned, I understand about the non-pre-emption issue, but I've been reading about CCWers carrying open with relative impunity. I thought that, if one had a CCW and wanted to carry, one HAD to carry concealed, and COULD NOT OC, under any circumstances. Is this correct, or am I misled (again)? In hot weather, IWB holsters can get kinda sweaty, and it gets even moreso if one has to wear a cover garment, so it would be a summertime blessing if I could OC with a CCW (which sounds counterintuitive, but whatever).

Continued and prolific thanks,
Nick

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n9viw wrote:

Diver,

snip

I thought that, if one had a CCW and wanted to carry, one HAD to carry concealed, and COULD NOT OC, under any circumstances. Is this correct, or am I misled (again)?

snip

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ABSOLUTELY incorrect!!! A CCW in MO (essentially) just exempts you from the section of the law that says you can't conceal a deadly/dangerous weapon. The MO CCW is actually not a concealed firearm license but rather a concealed carry weapons license as it exempts you from the concealed carry restrictions on most all weapons excepting switchblades and butterfly knives.

This "exemption" in no way imposes a restriction on you from other lawful activity.

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Well, there's the on-topic tie-in then! If I can OC with a CCW, I most certainly will. If people get uncomfortable, I can always shift it CC. Sweet!

Dudes, you ROCK! I'm so glad I showed up here! Oh, and double bonus- my birthday is in a month, so if my family is fishing for suggestions, they'll certainly find them (I left the Midway catalog in the bathroom with a bookmark in the holster section with some models and page numbers marked down... I so clever!)

Nick