MotorCity
New member
imported post
Greetings all,
I first joined this discussion group in March 2009. I have spent a lot of time reading the threads and learning the wash, rinse, repeat mantra. Additionally, I have done my own research and read up on the laws for both concealed carry and open carry. Once I felt comfortable enough I made the decision to venture into open carry. I do have a concealed pistol license and have been carrying that way since the day I received it in December 2008.
This is only my third post to the forums as I have only posted twice in the open carry experiences and both have been positive experiences. While I have only posted the two experiences the reality is I carry openly quite frequently. I’ve never had a negative experience…until today. I’d like to share my experience with this group and ask for some opinions.
This evening I was attending a monthly social gathering at the Panera on Southfield Rd. in Lathrup Village. I had made the decision to open carry today and was doing so throughout the evening. At some point two uniformed Lathrup Village police officers came into the establishment and sat down at a table for a meal. They walked past me a few times but since I was seated at a table I do not think they noticed my sidearm. Once I stood up and walked past them to refill my coffee I seen that they now did notice I was carrying. I got my coffee and returned to my seat. About 15 minutes later one of the officers walked past me to refill his soda then turned toward me and asked if I was a police officer. I noticed his partner approaching me from my other side. I replied that I was not a police officer. He then asked me if I had a CCW. I replied that I do indeed have a CPL. The situation was friendly and the tone was good but I felt like they wanted additional information. I did not say anything at this point and just let the silence hang there until they started talking. They informed me that I was in violation of my CCW (yes that is what they kept calling it). Since I didn’t reply to that they decided to elaborate and they started to lecture me that since I had a CCW I was in violation by open carrying. They stated that a CCW holder gives up the right to open carry by accepting a CCW license. Since I stayed quiet during this lecture one of the officers then asked me if I understood that. I considered the entire wash, rinse, repeat scenario but by this time the entire group I was with (about 25 people) had stopped what they were doing and their attention was now on us. I was not looking forward to being disarmed and arrested in front of this group so against my better judgment I decided to say a few words.
I replied to this officers “Do you understand?” question with a statement that no I do not understand that and in fact I had a completely different understanding on open carry and concealed carry and that I was within my rights at that moment. The officer was quick to reply that they were both proponents of my rights and open carry in general and that OPEN CARRY WITHOUT A CCW is legal but that I was still in violation because I do have a CCW. At that point he asked me if I had just forgotten to cover it up today. I told him no, I made the decision to carry openly. He then asked if I would mind covering up. I replied that I would….again my first instinct was to say no, but since this was my first police interaction and I was with a social group I thought it best not to allow the situation to escalate. The entire conversation was ultra polite on both my part as well as theirs. I untucked just enough of my shirt to cover most of the firearm. The officers both went on to say that this whole open carry thing was making people in the establishment nervous and that they were pretty sure they were right in their interpretation of the laws. One of the officers agreed with my suggestion that they go back to their commanding officer and double check their information. I then asked for their cards so I could follow up with them at a later date to hear what they learned. They did give me a card with their information then left the establishment.
About ten minutes later I saw one of the officers walking back in and I thought for sure they were coming back to arrest me. He walked up to me and said he had talked to another senior officer who was also a CCW instructor and he rattled off a bunch of other credentials that I don’t remember. He stated that this other officer agreed that I was indeed in violation of my license and it was his opinion that I should be arrested. He said it would be a $500.00 fine and I would lose my license for 6 months and this was a civil infraction. I told him I still did not agree with his interpretation. He said he wasn’t looking to do anything but he thought I should know that it was indeed against the law. Again, I thanked him for his opinion but told him I would do some more research.
The good news is I did not get arrested and a bunch of people in the establishment learned a bunch more about open carry. Most were pretty surprised that I wasn’t arrested and actually so was I. The bad news is that I feel bad that I caved and covered my firearm. I know it was probably the right decision at the time since my wife and daughter as well as several friends were watching the whole thing quite nervously.
Conclusion:
I’m pretty confident that what I was doing is NOT illegal. I also think that the officers truly know that, otherwise they would have arrested me if they felt strongly that I was breaking the law. Because they spent approximately 15 minutes from seeing me openly carrying and approaching me, I believe they probably were debating what to do. Additionally, because the officer immediately left and asked another “senior” officer for an opinion it shows they are either poorly trained, misinformed, or just trying to give me a hard time to see how I would react.
I’d like to hear what others that have had law enforcement interaction while open carrying have to say about this. I’m also considering how can I get Lathrup Village to get with the program and train their officers properly.
Greetings all,
I first joined this discussion group in March 2009. I have spent a lot of time reading the threads and learning the wash, rinse, repeat mantra. Additionally, I have done my own research and read up on the laws for both concealed carry and open carry. Once I felt comfortable enough I made the decision to venture into open carry. I do have a concealed pistol license and have been carrying that way since the day I received it in December 2008.
This is only my third post to the forums as I have only posted twice in the open carry experiences and both have been positive experiences. While I have only posted the two experiences the reality is I carry openly quite frequently. I’ve never had a negative experience…until today. I’d like to share my experience with this group and ask for some opinions.
This evening I was attending a monthly social gathering at the Panera on Southfield Rd. in Lathrup Village. I had made the decision to open carry today and was doing so throughout the evening. At some point two uniformed Lathrup Village police officers came into the establishment and sat down at a table for a meal. They walked past me a few times but since I was seated at a table I do not think they noticed my sidearm. Once I stood up and walked past them to refill my coffee I seen that they now did notice I was carrying. I got my coffee and returned to my seat. About 15 minutes later one of the officers walked past me to refill his soda then turned toward me and asked if I was a police officer. I noticed his partner approaching me from my other side. I replied that I was not a police officer. He then asked me if I had a CCW. I replied that I do indeed have a CPL. The situation was friendly and the tone was good but I felt like they wanted additional information. I did not say anything at this point and just let the silence hang there until they started talking. They informed me that I was in violation of my CCW (yes that is what they kept calling it). Since I didn’t reply to that they decided to elaborate and they started to lecture me that since I had a CCW I was in violation by open carrying. They stated that a CCW holder gives up the right to open carry by accepting a CCW license. Since I stayed quiet during this lecture one of the officers then asked me if I understood that. I considered the entire wash, rinse, repeat scenario but by this time the entire group I was with (about 25 people) had stopped what they were doing and their attention was now on us. I was not looking forward to being disarmed and arrested in front of this group so against my better judgment I decided to say a few words.
I replied to this officers “Do you understand?” question with a statement that no I do not understand that and in fact I had a completely different understanding on open carry and concealed carry and that I was within my rights at that moment. The officer was quick to reply that they were both proponents of my rights and open carry in general and that OPEN CARRY WITHOUT A CCW is legal but that I was still in violation because I do have a CCW. At that point he asked me if I had just forgotten to cover it up today. I told him no, I made the decision to carry openly. He then asked if I would mind covering up. I replied that I would….again my first instinct was to say no, but since this was my first police interaction and I was with a social group I thought it best not to allow the situation to escalate. The entire conversation was ultra polite on both my part as well as theirs. I untucked just enough of my shirt to cover most of the firearm. The officers both went on to say that this whole open carry thing was making people in the establishment nervous and that they were pretty sure they were right in their interpretation of the laws. One of the officers agreed with my suggestion that they go back to their commanding officer and double check their information. I then asked for their cards so I could follow up with them at a later date to hear what they learned. They did give me a card with their information then left the establishment.
About ten minutes later I saw one of the officers walking back in and I thought for sure they were coming back to arrest me. He walked up to me and said he had talked to another senior officer who was also a CCW instructor and he rattled off a bunch of other credentials that I don’t remember. He stated that this other officer agreed that I was indeed in violation of my license and it was his opinion that I should be arrested. He said it would be a $500.00 fine and I would lose my license for 6 months and this was a civil infraction. I told him I still did not agree with his interpretation. He said he wasn’t looking to do anything but he thought I should know that it was indeed against the law. Again, I thanked him for his opinion but told him I would do some more research.
The good news is I did not get arrested and a bunch of people in the establishment learned a bunch more about open carry. Most were pretty surprised that I wasn’t arrested and actually so was I. The bad news is that I feel bad that I caved and covered my firearm. I know it was probably the right decision at the time since my wife and daughter as well as several friends were watching the whole thing quite nervously.
Conclusion:
I’m pretty confident that what I was doing is NOT illegal. I also think that the officers truly know that, otherwise they would have arrested me if they felt strongly that I was breaking the law. Because they spent approximately 15 minutes from seeing me openly carrying and approaching me, I believe they probably were debating what to do. Additionally, because the officer immediately left and asked another “senior” officer for an opinion it shows they are either poorly trained, misinformed, or just trying to give me a hard time to see how I would react.
I’d like to hear what others that have had law enforcement interaction while open carrying have to say about this. I’m also considering how can I get Lathrup Village to get with the program and train their officers properly.