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Thread: Legal C P L Class ?

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    Article published August 12, 2009Firearms instructor charged with 2 felonies


    A Perrysburg Township firearms instructor accused of selling more than 130 bogus firearms training certificates was bound over to Wood County Common Pleas Court yesterday on two felony charges.

    Jason Hernandez, 38, is charged with forgery and tampering with records. Perrysburg Municipal Judge S. Dwight Osterud allowed him to continue to be free on $20,000 bond.

    Michael Davenport, 38, of Northwood, who also is charged with forgery in the case, has his initial appearance in Perrysburg court tomorrow. He allegedly referred people to Mr. Hernandez to obtain the false certificates. Article published August 12, 2009http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs...WS02/908040358

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    Anyone that goes to Ohio to purchase a bogus CPL, for any amount, is an idiot and needs to be in a jail in Ohio for as long as it takes to keep the people of Michigan safe from them. I hope nobody from Michigan was stupid enough to think this was a good idea. If there was, then I hope they get what the good people of Ohio deem as just.springerdave.

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    springerdave wrote:
    Anyone that goes to Ohio to purchase a bogus CPL, for any amount, is an idiot and needs to be in a jail in Ohio for as long as it takes to keep the people of Michigan safe from them. I hope nobody from Michigan was stupid enough to think this was a good idea. If there was, then I hope they get what the good people of Ohio deem as just.springerdave.
    '

    They weren't purchasing a bogus CPL, just a bogus certification from the NRA.

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    No mention of the NRA. Surprised? NO.


    To get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, Ohio residents are required to complete 12 hours of instruction. But more than 130 individuals allegedly bought training certificates from a Perrysburg Township firearms instructor without attending classes, investigators said Monday. Jason Hernandez, 38, is charged with forgery and tampering with evidence, both felonies. Michael Davenport, 38, of Northwood, is charged with forgery for allegedly referring individuals to Mr. Hernandez to obtain a false certificate. Investigators said that since 2004, some 110 false certificates were filed with the Lucas County Sheriff's Office and about 22 were filed in Wood County. Investigators told sheriffs in neighboring counties about the false certificates."I just got off the phone with Ottawa County. They have 20 applications they've reviewed that were under Hernandez as the issuing person," Wood County Sheriff's Det. Sgt. Scott Koch said.
    "They've confirmed at least three-quarters of those were obtained fraudulently." Wood County Sheriff Mark Wasylyshyn said individuals who falsely obtained a training certificate could be charged with a felony, although those who cooperate with investigators most likely would be charged with a misdemeanor. "We definitely want to send a strong message that if you falsely give out a certificate or bring us a false certificate, there are going to be consequences," Sheriff Wasylyshyn said. Permits for carrying a concealed weapon that were issued to individuals suspected of submitting false training certificates have been suspended, the sheriff said. Detective Sergeant Koch reported that applicants said they paid $150 to $300 for a falsified certificate. The training costs $75 to $150, he said. He said the investigation began with a tip to the Lucas County Sheriff's Office. "We started interviewing some of the most recent applicants they had for [concealed carry] permits and within a day or two we were out getting search warrants for the two main subjects," Detective Sergeant Koch said. Mr. Hernandez and Mr. Davenport were arrested last week and booked into the Wood County jail, where they posted bond and were released. Preliminary hearings for both are Thursday in Perrysburg Municipal Court.

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    Thanks Zig. "They weren't purchasing a bogus CPL, just a bogus certification from the NRA."

    I stand corrected on that pertinent point. I do hope that they eventually find a new address at the discretion of the state of Ohio.springerdave.

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    springerdave wrote:
    Anyone that goes to Ohio to purchase a bogus CPL, for any amount, is an idiot and needs to be in a jail in Ohio for as long as it takes to keep the people of Michigan safe from them. I hope nobody from Michigan was stupid enough to think this was a good idea. If there was, then I hope they get what the good people of Ohio deem as just.springerdave.
    Not to be rude . Any person who may not know the Law [ Michigan ] and did not complete the mandatory classes May be NEXT. Again not be rude please [WHAT is a Legal CPL class ? ]. Remember on CPL form at signature false statements are four year Felonies plus up to 2,500 dollar fines .

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    springerdave wrote:
    Anyone that goes to Ohio to purchase a bogus CPL, for any amount, is an idiot and needs to be in a jail in Ohio for as long as it takes to keep the people of Michigan safe from them. I hope nobody from Michigan was stupid enough to think this was a good idea. If there was, then I hope they get what the good people of Ohio deem as just.springerdave.
    '

    They weren't purchasing a bogus CPL, just a bogus certification from the NRA.
    Where do you get that information? What "NRA" certification are you referring to?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    First of all the NRA is not the only organization that certifies firearms instructors... Second this has nothing to do with them and everything to do with a cheat serving other cheats!!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    First of all the NRA is not the only organization that certifies firearms instructors... Second this has nothing to do with them and everything to do with a cheat serving other cheats!!
    True, but Michigan recognizes NRA trained instructors, and the Personal protection course that it teaches.

    I think what he is referring to and this has been discussed before is that in order to provide a legal NRA taught course you have to have a 5 hour basic pistol course before you can take the8 hour personal protection course. You also have to shoot so many rounds and score a certain % to pass. This totals to at least 13 hours of instruction. So technically any 8 hour CPL course is invalid in Michigan.

    So far nobody has challenged this.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    There is a way around the Basic pistol class. They instructor gives you a test and if you pass it and are able to complete the range portion without help then he can pass you. Otherwise you have to complete basic pistol prior to receiving you certificate. In my CPL class there were 2 people who had to do the basic pistol the following Tuesday.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    I believe that there are other ways too...DOD training, competition scores/ certification, etc.

    I tried to find a copy of the NRA training manual on-line but only found the updates. Does anyone have a copy that they could look up the relevant section and quote just that section here??
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Doug Huffman wrote: To those of you reading this thread -

    I am an NRA certified instructor and my company teaches in Virginia. I recentlly posted something in the Virginia forum about offeringdiscounted NRA memberships. My post has nothing to do with training certificates. For some reason, "Doug Huffman" has chosen to link that post here, as well as this thread in the Virginia forum.

    I run a legitimate training business and any insinuation that my business practices are aligned with someone in Michigan selling fraudulent training certificates is absolutely offensive to me and completely untrue.

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    ProShooter wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote: .

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
    There is a man behind that curtain?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    ProShooter wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote: To those of you reading this thread -

    I am an NRA certified instructor and my company teaches in Virginia. I recentlly posted something in the Virginia forum about offeringÂ*discounted NRA memberships. My post has nothing to do with training certificates. Â*For some reason, "Doug Huffman" has chosen to link that post here, as well as this thread in the Virginia forum.

    I run a legitimate training business and any insinuation that my business practices are aligned with someone in Michigan selling fraudulent training certificates is absolutely offensive to me and completely untrue.

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
    I don't think that he was trying to connect you to anything these
    two losers were doing. Since you are an NRA instructor, I am wondering
    if you could quote or otherwise explain the NRA Instructor's
    Manual regarding the prerequisites to be able to take the Personal
    Protection in the Home course. Michigan accepts this course for
    it's training requirement. Some here have questioned the
    situation where people take this course without having taken the
    Basic Pistol Course.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    DrTodd wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote: To those of you reading this thread -

    I am an NRA certified instructor and my company teaches in Virginia. I recentlly posted something in the Virginia forum about offeringdiscounted NRA memberships. My post has nothing to do with training certificates. For some reason, "Doug Huffman" has chosen to link that post here, as well as this thread in the Virginia forum.

    I run a legitimate training business and any insinuation that my business practices are aligned with someone in Michigan selling fraudulent training certificates is absolutely offensive to me and completely untrue.

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
    I don't think that he was trying to connect you to anything these
    two losers were doing. Since you are an NRA instructor, I am wondering
    if you could quote or otherwise explain the NRA Instructor's
    Manual regarding the prerequisites to be able to take the Personal
    Protection in the Home course. Michigan accepts this course for
    it's training requirement. Some here have questioned the
    situation where people take this course without having taken the
    Basic Pistol Course.
    MCSGO and NRA are only recognized instructors for non LE. One who is must abide by the rules set by above,state law says the one whom teaches MUST be tested , and follow the rules but May Exceed never less than in hours !

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    taxwhat wrote:
    [/quote]
    MCSGO and NRA are only recognized instructors for non LE. One who is must abide by the rules set by above,state law says the one whom teaches MUST be tested , and follow the rules but May Exceed never less than in hours ![/quote]

    Taxwhat-- could you direct me to the information that the State of Michigan ONLY accepts classes from MCSGO or NRA for Non-LEO? Do you happen to have the NRA Training Manual rules as to what prerequisites are required for the NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course? I would really like to get this issue resolved as it is potentially very serious....

    On the NRA website I found some information BUT do not believe that I can consider it authoritative in regards to the issue.

    From the NRA website:

    Name : NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course

    Short Description : Teaches the basic knowledge, skills, and attitude essential to the safe and efficient use of a handgun for protection of self and family, and to provide information on the law-abiding individual’s right to self-defense.

    More Details: This is an eight-hour course. Students should expect to shoot approximately 100 rounds of ammunition. Students will learn basic defensive shooting skills, strategies for home safety and responding to a violent confrontation, firearms and the law, how to choose a handgun for self-defense, and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection In The Home handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, and course completion certificate.(Lesson Plan 2000, revised 10/06)

    The NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course participants must be law abiding, adults (at least 21 years old), and experienced shooters (shooters able to show mastery of the basic skills of safe gun handling, shooting a group, zeroing the firearm, and cleaning the firearm) to maximize what can be learned from this course. Proof of shooting experience can be one of the following: NRA Basic Pistol Course Certificate, NRA FIRST Steps Course Certificate, NRA pistol competitive shooting qualification card, military DD 214 with pistol qualification, or passing the Pre-Course Assessment.

    edited for clarity
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I passed the pre course assessment and that was how I qualified! Several in the room were active military and several had taken basic pistol prior....
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    DrTodd wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote: To those of you reading this thread -

    I am an NRA certified instructor and my company teaches in Virginia. I recentlly posted something in the Virginia forum about offeringdiscounted NRA memberships. My post has nothing to do with training certificates. For some reason, "Doug Huffman" has chosen to link that post here, as well as this thread in the Virginia forum.

    I run a legitimate training business and any insinuation that my business practices are aligned with someone in Michigan selling fraudulent training certificates is absolutely offensive to me and completely untrue.

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
    I don't think that he was trying to connect you to anything these
    two losers were doing. Since you are an NRA instructor, I am wondering
    if you could quote or otherwise explain the NRA Instructor's
    Manual regarding the prerequisites to be able to take the Personal
    Protection in the Home course. Michigan accepts this course for
    it's training requirement. Some here have questioned the
    situation where people take this course without having taken the
    Basic Pistol Course.
    I do think that he was trying to make that connection. He has been known for his off the wall statements that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

    Anyway.......as for your question, I am not certified to teach PPITH nor am I familiar with Michigan training standards so I do not feel confortable answering your question. I would imagine that someone more qualified than I will step up and answer this for you. I would enjoy reading the answer as well.


    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    ProShooter wrote:
    DrTodd wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote: To those of you reading this thread -

    I am an NRA certified instructor and my company teaches in Virginia. I recentlly posted something in the Virginia forum about offeringÂ*discounted NRA memberships. My post has nothing to do with training certificates. Â*For some reason, "Doug Huffman" has chosen to link that post here, as well as this thread in the Virginia forum.

    I run a legitimate training business and any insinuation that my business practices are aligned with someone in Michigan selling fraudulent training certificates is absolutely offensive to me and completely untrue.

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
    I don't think that he was trying to connect you to anything these
    two losers were doing. Since you are an NRA instructor, I am wondering
    if you could quote or otherwise explain the NRA Instructor's
    Manual regarding the prerequisites to be able to take the Personal
    Protection in the Home course. Michigan accepts this course for
    it's training requirement. Some here have questioned the
    situation where people take this course without having taken the
    Basic Pistol Course.
    I do think that he was trying to make that connection. He has been known for his off the wall statements that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

    Anyway.......as for your question, I am not certified to teach PPITH nor am I familiar with Michigan training standards so I do not feel confortable answering your question. I would imagine that someone more qualified than I will step up and answer this for you. I would enjoy reading the answer as well.
    I understand entirely; I also understand your "connection" comment. You are trying to provide an above board and professional; you do not need anything negative being even remotely connected to your livelihood.

    I'm hoping someone here can help me out... I am not attempting to violate copyright or anything. I may just try to contact the NRA itself but from my previous experience with them, I know that I probably will never get a helpful response. (Not being critical, just that it seems training issues are handled with a large amount of deference given to individual trainers)
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    wrightme wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote: .

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
    There is a man behind that curtain?
    Yes, and you should know that he is well armed.....

  22. #22
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    M1Gunr wrote:
    wrightme wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote: .

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
    There is a man behind that curtain?
    Yes, and you should know that he is well armed.....
    As are most of us here...
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    DrTodd wrote:
    taxwhat wrote:
    MCSGO and NRA are only recognized instructors for non LE. One who is must abide by the rules set by above,state law says the one whom teaches MUST be tested , and follow the rules but May Exceed never less than in hours ![/quote]

    Taxwhat-- could you direct me to the information that the State of Michigan ONLY accepts classes from MCSGO or NRA for Non-LEO?NRA website under rules or length of courseDo you happen to have the NRA Training Manual rules as to what prerequisites are required for the NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course? I would really like to get this issue resolved as it is potentially very serious....

    On the NRA website I found some information BUT do not believe that I can consider it authoritative in regards to the issue.

    From the NRA website:

    Name : NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course

    Short Description : Teaches the basic knowledge, skills, and attitude essential to the safe and efficient use of a handgun for protection of self and family, and to provide information on the law-abiding individual’s right to self-defense.

    More Details: This is an eight-hour course. Range time 3 hours .Students should expect to shoot approximately 100 rounds of ammunition. Students will learn basic defensive shooting skills, strategies for home safety and responding to a violent confrontation, firearms and the law, how to choose a handgun for self-defense, and continued opportunities for skill development. Students will receive the NRA Guide to the Basics of Personal Protection In The Home handbook, NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification booklet, and course completion certificate.(Lesson Plan 2000, revised 10/06)

    The NRA Basic Personal Protection In The Home Course participants must be law abiding, adults (at least 21 years old), and experienced shooters (shooters able to show mastery of the basic skills of safe gun handling, shooting a group, zeroing the firearm, and cleaning the firearm) to maximize what can be learned from this course. Proof of shooting experience can be one of the following: NRA Basic Pistol Course Certificate, NRA FIRST Steps Course Certificate, NRA pistol competitive shooting qualification card, military DD 214 with pistol qualification, or passing the Pre-Course Assessment.

    edited for clarity[/quote]
    Please do not be afraid to contact NRA ans Demand answers or MIKE cox !

  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Thanks for the information, Jan. Hope everything is going well for you and your wife. I'll get back to you if I hear anything.

    --Todd
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    DrTodd wrote:
    Thanks for the information, Jan. Hope everything is going well for you and your wife. I'll get back to you if I hear anything.

    --Todd
    Article published September 18, 20092 charged with faking concealed-carry permits


    BOWLING GREEN - Two Wood County men accused of selling training certificates to people seeking concealed- carry permits were named in separate bills of information filed yesterday in Wood County Common Pleas Court.

    Jason Hernandez, 38, of Perrysburg Township, and Michael J. Davenport, 39, of Northwood, each were charged with complicity to falsification to obtain concealed handgun licenses. Sheriff's investigators said Mr. Davenport referred people to Mr. Hernandez to obtain a training certificate without undergoing the required 12 hours of firearms instruction. http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs...=2009909189989

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