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Thread: Question about "Establishment Type" in the ABC license

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Rather than hi-jack the convention center thread, let me just post this on its own...

    I just took a look at the ABC search site, and it appears that each license has an "Establishment Type" field, which among the couple dozen options, include "Club" and "Restaurant", both key words used in 18.2-308.

    However, also noted in 18.2-308, the definition of "Restaurant" which for the Beer and Wine license is: "'Restaurant' means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold."

    So, even if a licensee is listed as something other than "Restaurant", say for example, "Food Concession", it appears to me that it still may fall under the definition of "Restaurant" in the code related to concealed carry.

    Does this seem to be the general consensus?

    It would make a lot more sense if they would list this in the license, so there is no doubt what is legal and not.

    One license that I was curious about is a field house where there are indoor soccer, football, etc. playing fields. They also have a snack bar, and sell beer. It's certainly not a restaurant by any sane definition of the word, but it does meet the definition I quoted above.

    TFred


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    This would certainly cause a new view on concealing at BowTie Cinemas.

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    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    Rather than hi-jack the convention center thread, let me just post this on its own...

    I just took a look at the ABC search site, and it appears that each license has an "Establishment Type" field, which among the couple dozen options, include "Club" and "Restaurant", both key words used in 18.2-308.

    However, also noted in 18.2-308, the definition of "Restaurant" which for the Beer and Wine license is: "'Restaurant' means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold."

    So, even if a licensee is listed as something other than "Restaurant", say for example, "Food Concession", it appears to me that it still may fall under the definition of "Restaurant" in the code related to concealed carry.

    Does this seem to be the general consensus?

    It would make a lot more sense if they would list this in the license, so there is no doubt what is legal and not.

    One license that I was curious about is a field house where there are indoor soccer, football, etc. playing fields. They also have a snack bar, and sell beer. It's certainly not a restaurant by any sane definition of the word, but it does meet the definition I quoted above.

    TFred
    I think it says specifically a restaurant license.

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    Skeptic wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    Rather than hi-jack the convention center thread, let me just post this on its own...

    I just took a look at the ABC search site, and it appears that each license has an "Establishment Type" field, which among the couple dozen options, include "Club" and "Restaurant", both key words used in 18.2-308.

    However, also noted in 18.2-308, the definition of "Restaurant" which for the Beer and Wine license is: "'Restaurant' means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold."

    So, even if a licensee is listed as something other than "Restaurant", say for example, "Food Concession", it appears to me that it still may fall under the definition of "Restaurant" in the code related to concealed carry.

    Does this seem to be the general consensus?

    It would make a lot more sense if they would list this in the license, so there is no doubt what is legal and not.

    One license that I was curious about is a field house where there are indoor soccer, football, etc. playing fields. They also have a snack bar, and sell beer. It's certainly not a restaurant by any sane definition of the word, but it does meet the definition I quoted above.

    TFred
    I think it says specifically a restaurant license.



    From § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry:


    J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; however, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer or any retired law-enforcement officer who meets the definition of a "qualified retired law-enforcement officer" pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 926C and is carrying the identification required by such statute from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
    Both Restaurant descriptions per § 4.1-100. Definitions:
    "Restaurant" means, for a beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold.

    "Restaurant" means, for a mixed beverage license other than a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, an established place of business (i) where meals with substantial entrees are regularly sold and (ii) which has adequate facilities and sufficient employees for cooking, preparing, and serving such meals for consumption at tables in dining areas on the premises, and includes establishments specializing in full course meals with a single substantial entree.


  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    Right. 18.2-308 says that restaurant or club is defined in § 4.1-100

    § 4.1-100.
    specifically says a restaurant refers to a place with "beer, or wine and beer license or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license, any establishment provided with special space and accommodation, where, in consideration of payment, meals or other foods prepared on the premises are regularly sold. "

    In other words, that should be a beer restaurant license, a wine and beer restaurant license, or a limited mixed beverage restaurant license. (They probably mean On premises license but that is hard to tell because of the wording)

    The second definition would refer to the multitude of other types of mixed beverage licenses (last I recall there were like 3 or 4 different ones, I used to date a caterer )

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I've long been of the opinion it doesn't matter (for the purpose of concealed carry) what type of license is issued by ABC. What matters is the definition found in 18.2-308, since it's the statute concerning concealed carry.

    Yes, it's asinine that the two might not always match, but I don't have high expectations of politicians.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    Tess wrote:
    What matters is the definition found in 18.2-308, since it's the statute concerning concealed carry.
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, Tess, since §18.2-308 contains no such definition. It merely refers to §4.1-100, as Skeptic mentioned and linked.

    ~ Boyd

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    TexasNative wrote:
    Tess wrote:
    What matters is the definition found in 18.2-308, since it's the statute concerning concealed carry.
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, Tess, since §18.2-308 contains no such definition. It merely refers to §4.1-100, as Skeptic mentioned and linked.

    ~ Boyd
    Sorry, Boyd. I shouldn't answer when I'm tired -- the mental shorthand sure doesn't translate well.

    18.2-308 references 4.1-100, as we all know. I'm frustrated by those who insist that the license type as issued by ABC would define whether you can carry concealed or not. IIRC, the license type as defined by ABC doesn't always match the definitions of 4.1-100. I maintain that the ABC definitions don't carry a bit of weight; it's the 4.1-100 definitions that matter.

    Should have been more clear.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    As I expected, your rationale makes perfect sense.

    ~ Boyd

  10. #10
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    "Club" includes things like the American Legion Hall.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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