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Thread: This interaction with police didn't go so well

  1. #1
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    The first time I had any contact with a Hammond Police officer on the street it went pretty well.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum22/28894.html

    This time not so much.

    I'm standing outside Walgreens trying to return some RedBox DVDs. I've done this many times before without issue while open carrying. There were people ahead of me and then a girl on a bike who I helped figure out how to return her DVDs. Then I was getting ready to return mine and I think I got one in when it happened.

    I have an officer came up to me and ask what I'm doing, if I'm a police officer etc. I explain that I have a license to carry and it's in my pocket. At some point he asks if he can take my gun but moves in really before I can answer. I just raise my hands as I'm not sure if I could say no without this guy throwing me to the ground especially in hindhsight, based on the rest of this. So he pulls my gun and I ask if he knows how to handle it and he says he does. He drops the mag and empties the chamber. He didn't drop the hammer on the empty chamber though, left that cocked. (Para Ordnance Warthog)

    So now he begins to tell me the license is only for concealed carry.

    I inform him the Indiana State Police websiite says we can open carry. He looks at my license and at one point claimed it used to say concealed on there and he wasnt sure when that changed but he would find out.

    I get berrated for carrying like a police officer by this guy. In his 22 years he's never seen a cop carry openly when off duty. There were three other officers there as well. A younger one said hey, it's your right to do that but just keep in mind if people call you're going to have to see us. I said - that's ok, I don't mind talking to police officers and at some point I explained how my first interaction went.

    I get the litany from him that people will freak out. I explained I've been to this place and this one and this one multiple times without a problem. He then jumps to because of the shorts I'm wearing I'll be mistaken for a cop and that will bring a load of trouble on me. Ok, I'm wearing shorts with an extra set of pockets further down. His view is that looks military and cops wear that type. Uh ok.

    So, I'm free to go but I can't load my gun in his presence. I explain that will look even worse if I don't. He says do it in your car. I said I walked. He refuses and says it could impounded if I want...

    So I say ok, and put my now unloaded gun in the holster and return the other DVD and consider for a bit renting another one. I decide not to and begin my walk home.

    I forgot his name (he was bald or nearly so, 22 years on the force) but he was the only one really talking except for the younger guy.

    Apparently someone called this time and Hammond Police still don't know the law and when informed, decide to make up the law as they see fit.

    This guy besides reducing my self-defense ability, set me up for a charge of brandishing if I tried to reload outside his "presence" even though I had broken no laws whatsoever.

    Oh and neat trick, you don't have to detain a person when you take their property with hardly a chance for them to say no.

    Advice?

    At the very least I'm calling the Hammond Police tomorrow to file a complaint.

    I also posted this at INGunOwners

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    aikidoka wrote:
    SNIP Advice?

    At the very least I'm calling the Hammond Police tomorrow to file a complaint.
    One does not call the police to file a complaint.

    First, if you have a Freedom of Information Act(FOIA)/Sunshine Law/Open Government Act, you send a request for a copy of the 911 call recording if you think there is one. You also FOIA the radio traffic, and any text information.

    After you have all your ducks in a row, then you file a written complaint, or call an attorney.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    aikidoka wrote:
    SNIPÂ* Advice?

    At the very least I'm calling the Hammond Police tomorrow to file a complaint.
    One does not call the police to file a complaint.Â*

    First, if you have a Freedom of Information Act(FOIA)/Sunshine Law/Open Government Act, you send a request for a copy of the 911 call recording if you think there is one.Â* You also FOIA the radio traffic, and any text information.

    After you have all your ducks in a row, then you file a written complaint, or call an attorney.
    How do I go about requesting all of that??

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    aikidoka wrote:
    I get berrated for carrying like a police officer by this guy.
    America really screwed up when it started letting the pork carry like the citizens.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    aikidoka wrote:
    I get berrated for carrying like a police officer by this guy.
    America really screwed up when it started letting the pork carry like the citizens.
    That term isn't appropriate. My first interaction with a police officer went quite well despite his being uninformed. Please dont disparage all police by using that term in my thread. Thank you.

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    aikidoka wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    aikidoka wrote:
    I get berrated for carrying like a police officer by this guy.
    America really screwed up when it started letting the pork carry like the citizens.
    That term isn't appropriate. My first interaction with a police officer went quite well despite his being uninformed. Please dont disparage all police by using that term in my thread. Thank you.
    Live a little, newbie. You'll grow up. Fealty to them is what got us into this mess.

    P.S. Why are police expected to get respect? Every other government worker can be disparaged, at will, but gun owners treat police with this baffling reverence.

    As I finished the post, I stopped by lewrockwell.com and saw this story from Bill Grigg. I just had to share.

    PEST-wielding Tax-Feeder Assaults Mom in Front of Her Kids Posted by William Grigg on August 13, 2009 02:47 PM Last January 31, Onondaga County Sheriff’s Deputy Sean Andrews, fishing for revenue, stopped a woman named Audra Harmon near Salina, New York. Andrews claimed to have seen Harmon talking on her cell phone while driving; Mrs. Harmon, who had two of her children in the back of her mini-van, responded that she hadn’t been doing so and could prove it.
    Undeterred, Andrews then accused Harmon of speeding. Again, Harmon politely insisted that she hadn’t been. She handed over her license and registration. As Andrews turned away, Harmon — under the impression that she was going to review the dashcam video, began to exit the car.
    Andrews ordered Harmon back into the van; she hesitates briefly, apparently arguing, and then got into the vehicle. Andrews then ordered her out, saying that she was under arrest. When Harmon hesitated, Andrews seized her by the arm and violently yanked her out, ordering her to the ground. Seconds later he assaulted her with the first of two blasts from his Portable Electro-Shock Torture device (PEST, more commonly called a Taser).
    He then dragged the mother — whose physical resistance amounted to a single attempt to pull away from the deranged, armed stranger when he dragged her from the car — toward the side of the road. He then knelt on her back, using his bulk to pin down the traumatized woman while handcuffing her. Andrews falsified an arrest report by claiming that Harmon had “obstructed traffic” by stepping out of the van. The video of the incident clearly shows that Harmon was well away from traffic until she had been tased and dragged in the direction of the road by Andrews.
    The victim of this assault under the color of state “authority” was charged with speeding (50 MPH in a 45 MPH zone), “disorderly conduct,” and resisting arrest. Those charges were dropped after prosecutors viewed the dashcam video.
    Audra Harmon plans to sue the station. Andrews was re-assigned to office duty while internal affairs seeks some pretext to justify his criminal actions.
    (Note: I revised some of the details in this item after reviewing the video; thanks to LRC reader Brian Bagnall for prompting me to do so.)


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    I see you're not going to offer any advice per my OP.

    If you want to berate police in general start your own thread. But you might want to read the forum rules first.

    5) While you may disagree strongly with another poster based upon their opinion, we will NOT tolerate any personal attacks or general bashing of groups of people based upon race, religion, sex, or choice of occupation (e.g., being a law enforcement officer).

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    aikidoka wrote:

    Advice?
    Yes.

    Read this thread:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/17262.html

    Officers who often know the law (but don't like it) will use intimidation to discourage people from OC'ing. It's your choice to OC or not, but don't be surprise to discover that some will say, "it's illegal" when they know full well it's legal.



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    now i wont agree with labeling any one particular group or anything. But i will say, an ass is an ass and to call it so is not wrong.

    being respectful is always a good idea, especially if they are not. this will always help our cause as cooler heads always prevail. Respectful does not mean fealty or subservient. Be agreeable, helpful. But dont get punked. And if they try, as in your case, do what you can to show them the right way. Goto their bosses. I think the advice you got so far makes sense in that regard.

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    Here's my thread about the Hammond PD. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum22/26621.html Was hoping all this stuff would stop, but apparently there are still some officers who like power too much.

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    I'm free to go but I can't load my gun in his presence.
    and just what law do they think they can arrest you for breaking by laughing and loading right in front of them?

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    DKSuddeth wrote:
    I'm free to go but I can't load my gun in his presence.
    and just what law do they think they can arrest you for breaking by laughing and loading right in front of them?
    I'll ask that next time. The way he was acting, I would probably end up on the ground or taken to the station.

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    aikidoka wrote:
    DKSuddeth wrote:
    I'm free to go but I can't load my gun in his presence.
    and just what law do they think they can arrest you for breaking by laughing and loading right in front of them?
    I'll ask that next time. The way he was acting, I would probably end up on the ground or taken to the station.
    you'd also be receiving a substantial settlement for excessive force and illegal arrest.

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    Gun Owners of America said they would send me contact info for two attorneys. One is in Indianapolis and the other about 80 miles south of that. I haven't received it yet but hopefully soon and then I'll see what realistic options I have.

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    I personally left Indiana because my handgun was confiscated during a similar confrontation and never returned to me. There was never an arrest and the Mishawaka police department and the St Joseph Prosecutor's office decided they would not return it unless I got a court order. I didn't have the money for a lawyer and eventually gave up fighting it and moved.

    My handgun license was also revoked. During the hearing in Indianapolis it was determined I am a "dangerous person" (because of the OC incident, apparently OC is dangerous). It was at this point I packed my bags and left for good.

    PLEASE fight this, and take advantage of the help here and other places. In hindsight, I wish I didn't tuck tail so quickly.

    For the record, I did and still do meet all the state and federal requirements to carry a handgun. Shall issue? Not in practice.

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    I have had my permit to carry a handgun for about 3 weeks now. My question is about open-carrying my handgun. I was told that it was legal and that I had the option to carry open or concealed. The permit itself does not specify rather you can carry open or concealed but I was told that indiana gun laws gives citizens with handgun permits the option of concealed or open carry. Well about two weeks ago I was open-carrying my handgun in my blackhawk holster connected to my waistband and I was leaving a shopping center. I was on my cell-phone when I heard someone yelling hey you!! I looked up and saw a Gary Police squad car and 2 officers running towards me with their glocks pointed at me and and I immediately got off the phone and told them that my gun permit was in my wallet. One officer snatched my gun and my holster while the other searched me. They cursed at me asking what the hell was I doing and I asked what did I do wrong. They looked at my I.D. and my permit and asked was I a police officer and I replied no and they told me that I cant carry openly only "concealed" and I told themthat I was told that Indiana was state that allows both. They told me that it wasnt and that I'd better not be carrying it open anymore. The officer that took my gun off my person took out my magazine, took my pistol apart, took all of my bullets out of the magazine, and told me to put my gun back together when I got to my car. At this point I was extremely embarassed and felt that I wasnt being treated fairly. Afterwards I've researched on a few gun law websites and they state that indiana is a state that allows open carry and if it's legal then I should be able to have the priveledge of open carrying.I want to know if there is something i can show officers who claim its not legal. I get the feeling if i print something off the internet and show them the'll act an ass and say that it's not real or something of that nature

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    wow thats not good. I would, if there is a sunshine law i think its called, pull all the records, get the officers names, and take it to the chief of police or mayor. Fight for what happened to you, get them trained. contact other oc'ers in your state via the website for more help.

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    Glock-Lover-219 wrote:
    ... I want to know if there is something i can show officers who claim its not legal. I get the feeling if i print something off the internet and show them the'll act an ass and say that it's not real or something of that nature
    Yes, it's called, "a law suite". Take a lot of cash from them and their department, and they'll get the message. I'm sure any paper documentation that you may have on you that proves it's legal will be quite amusing to them.

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    criminal mischief for one ....

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    DKSuddeth wrote:
    I'm free to go but I can't load my gun in his presence.
    and just what law do they think they can arrest you for breaking by laughing and loading right in front of them?
    criminal mischief for one

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    aikidoka wrote:
    This guy besides reducing my self-defense ability, set me up for a charge of brandishing if I tried to reload outside his "presence" even though I had broken no laws whatsoever.

    Oh and neat trick, you don't have to detain a person when you take their property with hardly a chance for them to say no.

    Advice?

    At the very least I'm calling the Hammond Police tomorrow to file a complaint.
    Pursuing the complaint is a fine idea. You did nothing wrong and handled the encounter well. Don't let the cop haterz like S357 muck things up for ya.



    IndianaBoy79 wrote:
    I personally left Indiana because my handgun was confiscated during a similar confrontation and never returned to me. There was never an arrest and the Mishawaka police department and the St Joseph Prosecutor's office decided they would not return it unless I got a court order. I didn't have the money for a lawyer and eventually gave up fighting it and moved.

    My handgun license was also revoked. During the hearing in Indianapolis it was determined I am a "dangerous person" (because of the OC incident, apparently OC is dangerous). It was at this point I packed my bags and left for good.

    PLEASE fight this, and take advantage of the help here and other places. In hindsight, I wish I didn't tuck tail so quickly.

    For the record, I did and still do meet all the state and federal requirements to carry a handgun. Shall issue? Not in practice.
    Was there any charge or violation that was made by MPD? Did you attend the hearing in Indianapolis?

    Can you pass a NCIC background check today?

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    jaramia20 wrote:
    DKSuddeth wrote:
    I'm free to go but I can't load my gun in his presence.
    and just what law do they think they can arrest you for breaking by laughing and loading right in front of them?
    criminal mischief for one
    yeah, that's like disorderly conduct. it's not flying.

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    Yes I can pass a background check and meet all legal state and federal requirements for a license to carry in Indiana. I have since purchased several guns both in Indiana and now in Idaho. I also hold a license to carry a concealed weapon here in Idaho, and had no problem going through the FBI print check.

    Edited to reflect legal advice.

    Advised to remove this portion of the post, it appears I may have some legal counsel now.

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    Good for you, I hope things go well with the lawyer. Can't believe these...ah...officers are behaving in this manner. It's just a friggin state over, what does a boundary have anything to do with OC or not. KY generally doesn't have this issue.

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    I'm not having much luck. The first lawyer I called hasn't called back and I'm still trying to find out if Det. Cmd. Potesta in Highland actually did inform Hammond Police. If he did, and it was before I had my interactions, that means the truth is not being given to officers in the field which to me is an even more serious matter.

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