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Thread: Sebewaing police advised NOT TO OPEN CARRY

  1. #1
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    I was going to open carry this weekend in my home town in the thumb area but called the local PD and was advised not to do so.Was told by the officer i talked to and went to school with and he told me he knows of no such law allowing open carry in mich.
    I'm not sure if i should do it now or not.I would appreciate some help on getting the local PD there some info on open carry. I am stilling going to be the for the weekend and will for sure carry concealed but a little nervous about open carrying now that i asked them what they knew about open carry law and they advised me not to telling me as far as they knew it is illegal.
    I wish i had some info on the law and open carry as i am going to be working a hunting show at the local hall and would love to hand out info at the door.
    Any how will see how things go.
    The Sebewaing PD phone # is 989-883-2380 the fax is 989-8839729 the chief of the dept is Bill Owens if anyone would like to give them a call and try to inform them that open carry is legal.


    h2ofowl


  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    h2ofowl wrote:
    I was going to open carry this weekend in my home town in the thumb area but called the local PD and was advised not to do so.Was told by the officer i talked to and went to school with and he told me he knows of no such law allowing open carry in mich.
    I'm not sure if i should do it now or not.I would appreciate some help on getting the local PD there some info on open carry. I am stilling going to be the for the weekend and will for sure carry concealed but a little nervous about open carrying now that i asked them what they knew about open carry law and they advised me not to telling me as far as they knew it is illegal.
    I wish i had some info on the law and open carry as i am going to be working a hunting show at the local hall and would love to hand out info at the door.
    Any how will see how things go.
    The Sebewaing PD phone # is 989-883-2380 the fax is 989-8839729 the chief of the dept is Bill Owens if anyone would like to give them a call and try to inform them that open carry is legal.


    h2ofowl
    Gee I wish there was a forum on OC that one could go to to find out information.

    Oh wait try here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html
    PURPOSE: To provide guidance in calls for services that involves a person who is openly carrying a pistol in a holster.

    As you may know any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who can legally possess a firearm may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law without a CPL (1). Those that do not have a CPL when transporting their firearms must do so as prescribe by law. No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law (2).Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm (3). Attorney General Opinion 7101, 2/02 states...by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.”]In regards to disorderly conduct [size=due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry.]Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. Officers should not editorialize against open carry by private citizens in any way shape or form, or in any way suggest that a person should conceal their firearm. Suggestions and editorializing against lawful open carry may be interpreted as “commands” by civilians who are lawfully open carrying and may subject officers to complaints filed against them, as well as possible legal action against themselves and the department.Recently it has been opined by the AG opinion, the
    MSP and Senator Prusi that persons with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. (4).

    It is suggested that Law enforcement supervisors inform their staff in regards to the legality of openly carrying a handgun in Michigan. It is also suggested that an officer protocol be developed in dealing with such a call. It also would be beneficial to inform your dispatchers and your county 911 department in developing a protocol on receiving a “man with a gun” call. An example of some questions to ask a person calling 911 about a person openly carrying is included.

    It is our hope that by informing you and all law enforcement personnel throughout the state about the legality of open carry that we can avoid any civil or criminal actions that might otherwise occur. If you have questions or concerns please contact your prosecuting attorney. We thank you for your time and consideration in this regard, and as law abiding citizens we appreciate the demanding and dangerous work you all do.

    Footnotes:

    1) Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    c) A court.
    d) A theatre.
    e) A sports arena.
    f) A day care center.
    g) A hospital.
    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    b) A peace officer.
    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection
    (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (2) MSPLegal Update Newsletters: April 2007 and June 2008
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._66_238184_7.pdf
    Did You Know: It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol.

    Preemption: In MCRGO v. Ferndale, the Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession. Therefore, officers should check with their prosecutors before enforcing an ordinance that imposes a general ban on openly carrying a pistol.

    THE MICHIGAN APPEAL COURT CONCLUDED:
    April 29, 20006 v No. 242237

    In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to
    MCL28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that theFerndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.

    In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    (3) Act 328 of 1931
    750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor.
    Sec. 234e.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not knowingly brandish a firearm in public.
    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.
    (b) A person lawfully engaged in hunting.
    (c) A person lawfully engaged in target practice.
    (d) A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair, or transfer of that firearm.
    History: Add. 1990, Act 321,
    Eff. Mar. 28, 1991

    Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002In part:

    … Section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code does not define the crime of brandishing a firearm in public. The Michigan Criminal Jury Instructions, published by the Committee on Standard Criminal Jury Instructions, does not include a recommended jury instruction on brandishing a firearm. Research discloses that while the term "brandishing" appears in reported Michigan cases,2 none of the cases define the term.

    In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, SecondCollege Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."

    Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.

    It is my opinion, therefore, …by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public. JENNIFER M.
    GRANHOLM, Attorney General

    (4)Three opinions on this topic.An AG’s opinion, the Michigan State Police, and a State Senator’s.

    AG opinion No. 7097 FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN January 11, 2002: This conclusion is not affected by the provisions of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328,
    MCL 750.1 et seq. That statute prohibits certain persons from possessing firearms on certain types of premises as follows: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    c) A court.
    d) A theatre.
    e) A sports arena.
    f) A day care center.
    g) A hospital.
    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession
    of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    b) A peace officer.
    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [Emphasis added.]

    By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol,… is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

    MSP opinion: Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441

    Senator
    Prusi’s opinion: My office received your inquiry regarding the legality of a licensed CPL holder to open carry a firearm in "Pistol Free Zones." On Friday we received a copy of your correspondence, as Senator Carl Levin's Office referred your letter to my office because your concerns mainly pertain to state issues. As such, I am happy to assist you in this matter.

    My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are licensed a CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that
    MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter….Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

    Example of a 911 Protocol for “Person with a gun call”

    911: This is 911 what is your emergency?

    Caller: Ah….not sure if this is an emergency but there’s some guy with a gun on his belt here in the Wal-Mart.

    911: Is the gun in a holster or is this person waving the gun around or threatening anyone? Is anyone injured? What is the man doing?

    Caller: Aaah…no one is hurt. Aaaah…the guy is just shopping. Pushing a cart looking at some frozen carrots I think. Aah he’s looking at carrots.

    911 : Does this man seem to be intoxicated or mentally impaired? Does he appear to be acting irrationally?

    Caller: No he doesn’t seem to be acting strange other than the gun. Can’t you send some officers here to check him out? Think of the children.

    911: Does the person appear to be 18 years old or older?

    Caller: I would say he’s about 35 years old, average build, dark short hair, and he has a short beard. He’s wearing khaki pants with a dark blue polo shirt.


    911: Sir, the open carry of a handgun is legal in Michigan by any lawful person 18 years old or older. Unless the person is waving it around in a threatening manner or is acting irrationally there is nothing we can legally do. Now if the person should threaten someone or become agitated let us know and we’ll send a car, but until then have a good night.

    If 911dispatchers had a protocol similar to this over simplified example for handling this type of call; that is just by asking a few short questions the adrenalin factor would be reduced and officer stress would be diminished. Each department can decide if a patrol car needs to be dispatched to investigate this kind of call, and if so, the officer would have more information on how to handle the encounter.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
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    They don't makes laws to allow things, they makes laws to NOT allow things. There is NO LAW THAT PROHIBITS OC IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.

    If you decide to OC make sure you know ALL of the gun/transportation laws pertaining to carrying. Alos make sure you read the thread at the top of the forum titled "WASH, RINSE, REPEAT".

  4. #4
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    sent him this letter





    To Chief of police Bill Owen,

    My name is Gordon Cannon. I am a regional coordinator for Michigan Open Carry Inc.I am sending you this letter because one of our members called your police and asked if he could openly carry his holstered handgun. He was told it was illegal.So I wanted to send this information so you could inform your officers about open carry.

    PURPOSE: To provide guidance in calls for services that involves a person who is openly carrying a pistol in a holster.

    As you may know any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who can legally possess a firearm may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law without a CPL (1). Those that do not have a CPL when transporting their firearms must do so as prescribe by law. No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law (2). Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm (3). Attorney General Opinion 7101, 2/02 states...by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.” ]In regards to disorderly conduct [size=due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. ]Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition. A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. Officers should not editorialize against open carry by private citizens in any way shape or form, or in any way suggest that a person should conceal their firearm. Suggestions and editorializing against lawful open carry may be interpreted as “commands” by civilians who are lawfully open carrying and may subject officers to complaints filed against them, as well as possible legal action against themselves and the department. Recently it has been opined by the AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi that persons with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. (4).

    It is suggested that Law enforcement supervisors inform their staff in regards to the legality of openly carrying a handgun in Michigan. It is also suggested that an officer protocol be developed in dealing with such a call. It also would be beneficial to inform your dispatchers and your county 911 department in developing a protocol on receiving a “man with a gun” call. An example of some questions to ask a person calling 911 about a person openly carrying is included.

    It is our hope that by informing you and all law enforcement personnel throughout the state about the legality of open carry that we can avoid any civil or criminal actions that might otherwise occur. If you have questions or concerns please contact your prosecuting attorney. We thank you for your time and consideration in this regard, and as law abiding citizens we appreciate the demanding and dangerous work you all do.

    Footnotes:

    1) Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    c) A court.
    d) A theatre.
    e) A sports arena.
    f) A day care center.
    g) A hospital.
    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    b) A peace officer.
    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (2) MSP Legal Update Newsletters: April 2007 and June 2008http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._66_238184_7.pdf
    Did You Know: It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol.

    Preemption: In MCRGO v. Ferndale, the Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession. Therefore, officers should check with their prosecutors before enforcing an ordinance that imposes a general ban on openly carrying a pistol.

    THE MICHIGAN APPEAL COURT CONCLUDED:
    April 29, 20006 v No. 242237

    In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcingany ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of thecarrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.

    In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    (3) Act 328 of 1931
    750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor.
    Sec. 234e.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not knowingly brandish a firearm in public.
    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.
    (b) A person lawfully engaged in hunting.
    (c) A person lawfully engaged in target practice.
    (d) A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair, or transfer of that firearm.
    History: Add. 1990, Act 321, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991

    Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002 In part:

    … Section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code does not define the crime of brandishing a firearm in public. The Michigan Criminal Jury Instructions, published by the Committee on Standard Criminal Jury Instructions, does not include a recommended jury instruction on brandishing a firearm. Research discloses that while the term "brandishing" appears in reported Michigan cases,2 none of the cases define the term.

    In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions.People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines,"brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."

    Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer,"when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.

    It is my opinion, therefore, …by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public. JENNIFER M. GRANHOLM, Attorney General

    (4)Three opinions on this topic. An AG’s opinion, the Michigan State Police, and a State Senator’s.

    AG opinion No. 7097 FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN January 11, 2002: This conclusion is not affected by the provisions of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.1 et seq. That statute prohibits certain persons from possessing firearms on certain types of premises as follows: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    c) A court.
    d) A theatre.
    e) A sports arena.
    f) A day care center.
    g) A hospital.
    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession
    of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    b) A peace officer.
    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [Emphasis added.]

    By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol,… is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

    MSP opinion: Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones. Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441

    Senator Prusi’s opinion: My office received your inquiry regarding the legality of a licensed CPL holder to open carry a firearm in "Pistol Free Zones." On Friday we received a copy of your correspondence, as Senator Carl Levin's Office referred your letter to my office because your concerns mainly pertain to state issues. As such, I am happy to assist you in this matter.

    My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are licensed a CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter….Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

    Example of a 911 Protocol for “Person with a gun call”

    911: This is 911 what is your emergency?

    Caller: Ah….not sure if this is an emergency but there’s some guy with a gun on his belt here in the Wal-Mart.

    911: Is the gun in a holster or is this person waving the gun around or threatening anyone? Is anyone injured? What is the man doing?

    Caller: Aaah…no one is hurt. Aaaah…the guy is just shopping. Pushing a cart looking at some frozen carrots I think. Aah he’s looking at carrots.

    911 : Does this man seem to be intoxicated or mentally impaired? Does he appear to be acting irrationally?

    Caller: No he doesn’t seem to be acting strange other than the gun. Can’t you send some officers here to check him out? Think of the children.

    911: Does the person appear to be 18 years old or older?

    Caller: I would say he’s about 35 years old, average build, dark short hair, and he has a short beard. He’s wearing khaki pants with a dark blue polo shirt.

    911: Sir, the open carry of a handgun is legal in Michigan by any lawful person 18 years old or older. Unless the person is waving it around in a threatening manner or is acting irrationally there is nothing we can legally do. Now if the person should threaten someone or become agitated let us know and we’ll send a car, but until then have a good night.

    If 911dispatchers had a protocol similar to this over simplified example for handling this type of call; that is just by asking a few short questions the adrenalin factor would be reduced and officer stress would be diminished. Each department can decide if a patrol car needs to be dispatched to investigate this kind of call, and if so, the officer would have more information on how to handle the encounter.


    If you have any more questions please feel free to email or call me.My name again is Gordon Cannon my email address gcannon@miopencarry.org.My cell phone number is 517-917-1164


    Thank you for your time
    Gordon Cannon
    www.miopencarry.org
    gcannon@miopencarry.org

  5. #5
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    OpenCarry.org maxim: Don't ask cops about the law.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  6. #6
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    Yep they will almost always say NO!!

    And really the number of laws that they do not understand or properly enforce is amazing... and then they want to enforce things that have no law prohibiting them!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  7. #7
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    I know the forum and its purpose Venator=i asked if someone was willing to help inform the sebewaing PD didnt ask for sarcasm - thx for no help.
    thx cabman for your help it is appreciated.i am knew here and not good at aproaching or teaching people about something i know little about.Again cabman thank you.
    h2ofowl

  8. #8
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    h2ofowl wrote:
    I know the forum and its purpose Venator=i asked if someone was willing to help inform the sebewaing PD didnt ask for sarcasm - thx for no help.
    thx cabman for your help it is appreciated.i am knew here and not good at aproaching or teaching people about something i know little about.Again cabman thank you.
    h2ofowl
    Easy there buddy we are all in this together!! Now that said Ven is a busy man and give a good deal of his time to the cause! All he asks is that each of us try to do our part in whatever way we can! Now that might be educating local LEO or just OC'ing ourselves... or attending picnics or even planning one....

    You must remember Venator has been in the front lines of this movement since the beginning and ha will help you with info but ultimately he knows that in order for a grass roots organization to work each person involved has to take a part in it!

    All the info needed is located or linked from here... and more is added daily as it becomes available.

    Last point never ask the police legal questions ... they are not lawyers or judges and have no training in interpretation of LAW. There job is enforcement and if they feel it makes it easier to say no to OC when they know very well it is legal ... they will say NO!

    Hope this helps and if you have any more questions feel free to ask! We are all here to help and gain information!!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  9. #9
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    i did refer the pd to this sight to review the info on open carry but until they do and until they talk to the local prosecutor the officer i know and talked to still advised not to open carry until they look into the law he or they know nothing about as of yet.
    i will be dropping off the info i got from the portage picnic from you autosurgeon
    to them today.
    i understand venator is in the front lines of this fight but still feel he too could have been more helpful to someone helping him and this cause to fight for our right to open carry.I stated earlier i was new to this fight so i just would have appreciated help from those who know more about this then i do as far as how to approach or inform the people especially the police about the right to carry.
    you say dont ask the police about legal issues,well i was just trying to feel them out to see what they knew about open carrying.one because i am going to open carry there -two i grew up with and am friends with two of the officers there and didnt want to be hassled by them and have it turn ugly on a personal level( between friends)-dont need that crap if it could be handled on a professional level-thats why i asked for the groups help!thanks again to cabman for that help.


  10. #10
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    h2ofowl wrote:
    i did refer the pd to this sight to review the info on open carry but until they do and until they talk to the local prosecutor the officer i know and talked to still advised not to open carry until they look into the law he or they know nothing about as of yet.
    i will be dropping off the info i got from the portage picnic from you autosurgeon
    to them today.
    i understand venator is in the front lines of this fight but still feel he too could have been more helpful to someone helping him and this cause to fight for our right to open carry.I stated earlier i was new to this fight so i just would have appreciated help from those who know more about this then i do as far as how to approach or inform the people especially the police about the right to carry.
    you say dont ask the police about legal issues,well i was just trying to feel them out to see what they knew about open carrying.one because i am going to open carry there -two i grew up with and am friends with two of the officers there and didnt want to be hassled by them and have it turn ugly on a personal level( between friends)-dont need that crap if it could be handled on a professional level-thats why i asked for the groups help!thanks again to cabman for that help.
    Sorry if you thought I was sarcastic. If you have read and are familiar with all the info we have on this site, you would have had no need to ask for permission to open carry. You should know it's legal. Who careswhat the local PD or the local attorney thinks. From our experience they are often wrong. Next time ask them if wearing a green shirt is legal and to cite the law that states it is.

    As for helping me in MY cause, let me set you straight. This is not MY cause this is a cause of every person that loves liberty and is willing to fight for it. I can give you a fish, but I would rather teach you to fish. If you are unable to send an email with all of the info I had already provided from 2 years of research than I'm sorry for you.

    To me it's obvious you are not ready toOC and I suggest you do not do so until you are better informed and have more confidence than it appears you have.

    As has been stated I am working my ass off with no pay for a cause I believe in, and I get many more request for help than appears on this forum. My advice is to do some more research and respect your elders, especially the ones on your side.

    My contact information is at OC and if a few words written on an Internet forum pisses you off, then better here than on the street with a LEO in your face.

    All my best, Brian Jeffs




    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  11. #11
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    I got this a few minutes ago from the chief of police.


    \

    Dear Mr. Cannon,
    I spoke to my officer, who spoke to your member. Apparently your member mis-spoke himself. He tried to tell my officer that there was a new law that says people can “open carry”. The officer having not heard of a new piece of legislation, told him that being he has a CPL it might be wise to carry concealed pending confirmation of a new law, so that there wasn’t an incident.
    He then called me, I explained that you always could “open carry” but was unfamiliar with any “new laws”. He recalled that, but was confused as to anything new on the books.
    Something that needs to be explained to your members, is that “open carry” is not an adequate replacement for a CPL. Also there are many pitfalls in failing to educate people in the proper methods to “open carry” that could result in them getting into trouble with the law with out realizing that they have may have violated the law. (such as gun free zones, carrying on to federal property, in a motor vehicle etc.)
    Thank you for the information, I’ll add this to the rest of the info I use.
    William Owens, Chief

  12. #12
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    I think the moral to this story is if you ever have legal questions the last thing you should do is call up police departments, court houses, court clerks, your buddy from down the street for advice. Even law postings on the internet be taken with a grain of salt because you still run the risk of making mistakes by not being fully informed. Even calling a prosecuting attorney is not the best course of action.

    All you need to do is contact a good attorney one that is familiar with weapons laws for the state of Michigan also who is a criminal defense attorney. You don't to ask a tax attorney or one who specializes in business law. Criminal defense and specific concentrations in understanding Michigan weapons laws is a must.

    I carry a laminated card from a well respected Pro NRA attorney in Bloomfield Hills with me wherever I go. If you don't know of one yourself I definitely recommend Attorney Ronald Chapman - Chapman and Associates. Office is off of Woodward in Bloomfield Hills, Phone #248-644-6326. It is strongly recommended that everyone who carries a pistol also have a attorneys information handy at all time. If god forbid you are forced to shoot someone do not say anything and call your attorney.

    On a positive note it's good to always ask as many questions as possible until you're 100% comfortable with what you're doing. You have a good start with that. Just make sure to choose the person whom you speak to wisely otherwise you can get a wide variety of false information.

    Mike

  13. #13
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    mikestilly wrote:
    I think the moral to this story is if you ever have legal questions the last thing you should do is call up police departments, court houses, court clerks, your buddy from down the street for advice. Even law postings on the internet be taken with a grain of salt because you still run the risk of making mistakes by not being fully informed. Even calling a prosecuting attorney is not the best course of action.

    All you need to do is contact a good attorney one that is familiar with weapons laws for the state of Michigan also who is a criminal defense attorney. You don't to ask a tax attorney or one who specializes in business law. Criminal defense and specific concentrations in understanding Michigan weapons laws is a must.

    I carry a lamented card from a well respected Pro NRA attorney in Bloomfield Hills with me wherever I go. If you don't know of one yourself I definitely recommend Attorney Ronald Chapman - Chapman and Associates. Office is off of Woodward in Bloomfield Hills, Phone #248-644-6326. It is strongly recommended that everyone who carries a pistol also have a attorneys information handy at all time. If god forbid you are forced to shoot someone do not say anything and call your attorney.

    On a positive note it's good to always ask as many questions as possible until you're 100% comfortable with what you're doing. You have a good start with that. Just make sure to choose the person whom you speak to wisely otherwise you can get a wide variety of false information.

    Mike
    The other lesson is you can't believe what any poster state as fact. I have learned that what is reported to have happened is often far from what did happen. Posters tend to shade the incident in their favor.

    I have been burned before by taking verbatim what someone stated only to be embarrassed when I found out what they reported was only part of what happened. Hence my reluctance to jump to the aide of someone without find more out. I find if they don't want to stand up for themselves then that's a red flag.

    Trust but verify.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  14. #14
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    cabman1 wrote:
    I got this a few minutes ago from the chief of police.




    Dear Mr. Cannon,
    I spoke to my officer, who spoke to your member. Apparently your member mis-spoke himself. He tried to tell my officer that there was a new law that says people can “open carry”. The officer having not heard of a new piece of legislation, told him that being he has a CPL it might be wise to carry concealed pending confirmation of a new law, so that there wasn’t an incident.
    He then called me, I explained that you always could “open carry” but was unfamiliar with any “new laws”. He recalled that, but was confused as to anything new on the books.
    Something that needs to be explained to your members, is that “open carry” is not an adequate replacement for a CPL. Also there are many pitfalls in failing to educate people in the proper methods to “open carry” that could result in them getting into trouble with the law with out realizing that they have may have violated the law. (such as gun free zones, carrying on to federal property, in a motor vehicle etc.)
    Thank you for the information, I’ll add this to the rest of the info I use.
    William Owens, Chief
    See why I like to wait to find out more. This happens a lot. he said, she said. Best to wait a bit for more facts. Next time hold off for a bit before full speed ahead.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  15. #15
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    h2ofowl wrote:
    I know the forum and its purpose Venator=i asked if someone was willing to help inform the sebewaing PD didnt ask for sarcasm - thx for no help.
    Easy, fella! I read Venator's response as ironic humor, not sarcasm. Truthfully, your post also gave methe sense that you had not read the information here. First off, you asked the police for their opinion on open carry legality. Secondly, according to your story, the police gave you multiple items of blatant misinformation and you now are "not sure" if you should open carry or not. Thirdly, you state,"I wish I had some info on the law and open carry."

    Venator, to me, was just giving a humorous reminder that, indeed, the info is here (and it's not hard to find, you don't have to ask for it). And he did respond to your request and gave you some info.

    Good luck!Let us know how things go. And welcome aboard!
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  16. #16
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    Regardless of who said what, the LEO was sent the information about OC, so they have been notified and put up to speed on the right to OC. Whether or not they already knew, they know now!

    As far as the poster who started this thread, yes this is a grass roots organization, and it needs people to take their own initiative to get information out there to the proper people. I understand he may have not wanted to send the information because he maybe new to this and not very informed himself, but regardless the information was already put up by Venatar so all he really needed to do was "Copy and Paste" it into an email to the appropriate party.

    The moral of the story, if you are going totell your side of the story make sure you don't leave out important pieces that could lead to someone trying to help look like an a$$. And be sure you know ALL of the laws/rules about guns/transportation, andhave confidence before you decide to jump into it.

    Good luck, and don't feel like you can't ask any questions if you still have some. We are all here to help!

  17. #17
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    I just liked how fast the cheif returned my email wow that was quick and atleast he didnt just throw the info away.

  18. #18
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Hey and now that they have acknowledged that they know OC is legal go ahead and OC... You have a CPL so that makes it easier! Just keep reading the info section and feel free to ask questions... We promise not too bite!!!

    Remember at one time we were all in your shoes!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  19. #19
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    No crap, H2o should have read the stickies, period. Now maybe he will or maybe not. Sarcasm does have a place in our posts, but maybe we should hold off just a little till we know if someone is a total dolt or just so new that they need a little grooming. H2o may have turned out to be one of our greatest allies or he may just go away mad. This guy was asking for help and maybe he did take the lazy way to get it when he solicited from the forum and also from the police department, but he has only 5 posts. No way to know if he actually has the potential to become a strong, active member yet. I say hold off on the dumping until you find out that a poster is a total jerk and then let him have it. Want to find total jerks go over to that other forum and read a little, you'll find them there. Venator, I read his post and nowhere did he say that it was your fight. He referred to this cause and i didn't get that he thought it was yours alone. The poster also stated that he was not good at approaching or teaching people, given time this may change. Other newbees have been automatically been referred to the stickies, as this one should have been as well. I know that it can become old, but veteran members should just do it, refer the new guys to the stickies and then wait. We are all about education and all, right? When I first started I made a lot of mistakes, now I hope they are fewer. I wonder who here knew it all right from the get go? Rant off.springerdave.

  20. #20
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    springerdave wrote:
    No crap, H2o should have read the stickies, period. Now maybe he will or maybe not. Sarcasm does have a place in our posts, but maybe we should hold off just a little till we know if someone is a total dolt or just so new that they need a little grooming. H2o may have turned out to be one of our greatest allies or he may just go away mad. This guy was asking for help and maybe he did take the lazy way to get it when he solicited from the forum and also from the police department, but he has only 5 posts. No way to know if he actually has the potential to become a strong, active member yet. I say hold off on the dumping until you find out that a poster is a total jerk and then let him have it. Want to find total jerks go over to that other forum and read a little, you'll find them there. Venator, I read his post and nowhere did he say that it was your fight. He referred to this cause and i didn't get that he thought it was yours alone. The poster also stated that he was not good at approaching or teaching people, given time this may change. Other newbees have been automatically been referred to the stickies, as this one should have been as well. I know that it can become old, but veteran members should just do it, refer the new guys to the stickies and then wait. We are all about education and all, right? When I first started I made a lot of mistakes, now I hope they are fewer. I wonder who here knew it all right from the get go? Rant off.springerdave.
    You are right, I will hold off on posting to newbies and let other more polished members respond.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
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    Thanks.springerdave.

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    h2ofowl wrote:
    i did refer the pd to this sight to review the info on open carry but until they do and until they talk to the local prosecutor the officer i know and talked to still advised not to open carry until they look into the law he or they know nothing about as of yet.
    i will be dropping off the info i got from the portage picnic from you autosurgeon
    to them today...
    I suggest that you employ proper punctuation, spelling, sentence and paragraph spacing, whether you are posting here, or writing to an individual off-board.

    If you cannot be bothered to take the time to do so, why should anyone A) want to take the time to decipher what you are trying to say, and B) think of you as anything other than an uneducated rube?

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I must admit that I cringed when I first read H2OFOWL's post. I say this only because of his question concerning a "new law" regarding OC. However, I do realize that he did quite explicitly state that he is not very good at this sort of thing [contacting the police department]. Word to others who feel this way: post here for advice first.

    I also don't fault the police department; I believe they answered the question as asked. I appreciate that the chief took the time to respond to subsequent communication, and even acknowledged that OC is legal.

    I guess we need to remind new people here that we do not suggest calling the police department or to ask friendly LEOs what their opinion is. I understand that people do not want to deal with the "hassle" of a LEO confrontation or otherwise face the possibility of being arrested. However, I once again argue that a person could be challenged by anyone at anytime... that's just the way it is folks.

    "Newbies" need to take the time to see that there is no such thing as a guarantee that the police and citizens in general will acknowledge your right to OC... that's just the way it is. There are people such as myself who, although OCing everyday for over 2 years, have yet to be challenged by a police officer. There are others here who have been challenged the first or second time OCing. Are the police where I OC any more knowledgeable than the police elsewhere? I don't really think so considering that the same police department where I OC without an issue is also the same police department that has gone out of their way to harass one member here. I can point to no logical reason for them acting differently to different people.

    I hope H202fowl sticks around; I think all of us have taken umbrage at a posting or two, feeling that we were subjected to an unwarranted attack. The nature of this sort of communication lends itself to such interpretations. If he does stick around, though, I think he will discover that this is a knowledgeable group of people who are here to help people exercise the RKBA.

    I will also strongly suggest to anyone contemplating a call to their local PD that they access the website first. By using the accumulated knowledge here by asking how a letter or call should be worded, one can avoid the type of response that the poster experienced.

    Carry on...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  24. #24
    Regular Member KittyBomb's Avatar
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    springerdave wrote:
    No crap, H2o should have read the stickies, period. Now maybe he will or maybe not. Sarcasm does have a place in our posts, but maybe we should hold off just a little till we know if someone is a total dolt or just so new that they need a little grooming. H2o may have turned out to be one of our greatest allies or he may just go away mad. This guy was asking for help and maybe he did take the lazy way to get it when he solicited from the forum and also from the police department, but he has only 5 posts. No way to know if he actually has the potential to become a strong, active member yet. I say hold off on the dumping until you find out that a poster is a total jerk and then let him have it. Want to find total jerks go over to that other forum and read a little, you'll find them there. Venator, I read his post and nowhere did he say that it was your fight. He referred to this cause and i didn't get that he thought it was yours alone. The poster also stated that he was not good at approaching or teaching people, given time this may change. Other newbees have been automatically been referred to the stickies, as this one should have been as well. I know that it can become old, but veteran members should just do it, refer the new guys to the stickies and then wait. We are all about education and all, right? When I first started I made a lot of mistakes, now I hope they are fewer. I wonder who here knew it all right from the get go? Rant off.springerdave.
    I know I was pretty shy when I made my first post, I had actually contacted a person here from my local area asking him specifics about any LEO encounters in my town.
    I first read EVERY post in the List your OC experiences and every post in the Wash, Rinse, Repeat threads before I made any posts because I really didn't want to jump in asking silly questions.

    I had been at another forum unrelated to firearms a few years ago and got completely flamed and that did made me quite gun shy, so to speak, about making posts on forums unless I had done a lot of research on the topics covered.

    As I stated in my first post here, I only just very recently found out that OCing is legal in Michigan for all legal gun owners and found this site through an article about an OC picnic.

    You all have been very helpful and informative to me and I thank you.


  25. #25
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    so BB people have to be highly educated for you to respect them?Should everyone post there level of education on their posts so you can decide if you want to read them or not,hate for you to have to waste your education by reading some rubes post.

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