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The Tactical Nature of OC

E

emptypockets

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I just visited Evan Marshalls site (not the mandolin guy, that was just a joke) and read through the forum thread about OC vs. CC. and my fertile little mind started smoking and rattling and trying to work and came up with this question:

If OCing is so bad tactically and just screams "Shoot me first" why don't LEO's CC?

With them wearing a gun on their hip:

1. They're going to be shot first when the go into the convenience store to get their snack.

2. They're more susceptible to gun grabs.

3. Something else I can't think of.


OC and CC both have their tactical advantages and disadvantages. The "straw man" argument just isn't going to work anymore.

But since I opened this thread, any other thoughts or discussion on the tactical advantages and disadvantages of OC?
 
Bronson

Bronson

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OC:

Faster draw

Able to draw one handed which leavesthe other handfree to fend off anattacker.

Easier tocarry a larger firearm (Clint Smith has said ""I never met a man that had been in a gunfight and wished that he had a smaller gun. Ever.")

Deterent effect. Criminals tend to pick "soft targets" --those people they feel either cannot or will not defend themselves. An openly carried firearm places you firmly in theCAN defend yourself camp. The CC argument of keeping the element of surprise doesn't really hold water since surprise is an offensive tactic not a defensive one. The very fact that you need to draw the gun means that you are already in a life and death situation and surprise isn't going to help you now.

Ocing affects the BG at the stage of the encounter when he is picking his potential target and is a BIG factor in causing him to pick somebody else. CCaffects the BG after he has already decided to target you and is implementing the attack. IMO better to not be attacked in the first place.

Spreads positive message that gun owners/carriers are normal, friendly, responsible members of society.

Just a few off the top of my head.

Bronson
 
E

emptypockets

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Bronson wrote:
Deterent effect. Criminals tend to pick "soft targets" --those people they feel either cannot or will not defend themselves. An openly carried firearm places you firmly in theCAN defend yourself camp. The CC argument of keeping the element of surprise doesn't really hold water since surprise is an offensive tactic not a defensive one. The very fact that you need to draw the gun means that you are already in a life and death situation and surprise isn't going to help you now.

Ocing affects the BG at the stage of the encounter when he is picking his potential target and is a BIG factor in causing him to pick somebody else. CCaffects the BG after he has already decided to target you and is implementing the attack. IMO better to not be attacked in the first place.

Spreads positive message that gun owners/carriers are normal, friendly, responsible members of society.

Just a few off the top of my head.

Bronson
Click to expand...
I think that the deterrent is the primary advantage of OCing. It appears that Thomas Paine did as well.

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine

Some other advantages:

Confidence in knowing that, if attacked, you can defend yourself with every available option that will lead to a life saving outcome for you and your family (this overlaps somewhat with CC).

Heightened awareness of your surroundings. When I carry CC (which is most of the time) I tend to not pay attention as closely to what is around me. When I'm OCing there is a tendency to pay a lot closer attention to what is going on around me, especially what is happening behind and to the side of me.
 
E

emptypockets

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I seem to have missed the most important tactical advantage of both OC and CC: Freedom.

"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.

"If you wish the sympathy of the broad masses, you must tell them the crudest and most stupid things."

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
Adolph Hitler
Chancellor, Germany, 1933
 
D

Dansjeep2000

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Bronson wrote:
OC:

Faster draw

Able to draw one handed which leavesthe other handfree to fend off anattacker.

Easier tocarry a larger firearm (Clint Smith has said ""I never met a man that had been in a gunfight and wished that he had a smaller gun. Ever.")

Deterent effect. Criminals tend to pick "soft targets" --those people they feel either cannot or will not defend themselves. An openly carried firearm places you firmly in theCAN defend yourself camp. The CC argument of keeping the element of surprise doesn't really hold water since surprise is an offensive tactic not a defensive one. The very fact that you need to draw the gun means that you are already in a life and death situation and surprise isn't going to help you now.

Ocing affects the BG at the stage of the encounter when he is picking his potential target and is a BIG factor in causing him to pick somebody else. CCaffects the BG after he has already decided to target you and is implementing the attack. IMO better to not be attacked in the first place.

Spreads positive message that gun owners/carriers are normal, friendly, responsible members of society.

Just a few off the top of my head.

Bronson
Click to expand...
Exactly.
 
F

Fishous

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Did you know that both the Brady and the Hitler quote have been proven to be false?

emptypockets wrote:
I seem to have missed the most important tactical advantage of both OC and CC: Freedom.

"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.

"If you wish the sympathy of the broad masses, you must tell them the crudest and most stupid things."

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
Adolph Hitler
Chancellor, Germany, 1933
Click to expand...
 
Venator

Venator

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Fishous wrote:
Did you know that both the Brady and the Hitler quote have been proven to be false?

emptypockets wrote:
I seem to have missed the most important tactical advantage of both OC and CC: Freedom.

"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.

"If you wish the sympathy of the broad masses, you must tell them the crudest and most stupid things."

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
Adolph Hitler
Chancellor, Germany, 1933
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Please cite the source stating they are untrue.
 
Z

zigziggityzoo

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Venator wrote:
Fishous wrote:
Did you know that both the Brady and the Hitler quote have been proven to be false?

emptypockets wrote:
I seem to have missed the most important tactical advantage of both OC and CC: Freedom.

"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.

"If you wish the sympathy of the broad masses, you must tell them the crudest and most stupid things."

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
Adolph Hitler
Chancellor, Germany, 1933
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Please cite the source stating they are untrue.
Click to expand...

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1791/did-hitler-ban-gun-ownership
 
E

emptypockets

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zigziggityzoo wrote:
Venator wrote:
Fishous wrote:
Did you know that both the Brady and the Hitler quote have been proven to be false?

emptypockets wrote:
I seem to have missed the most important tactical advantage of both OC and CC: Freedom.

"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.

"If you wish the sympathy of the broad masses, you must tell them the crudest and most stupid things."

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
Adolph Hitler
Chancellor, Germany, 1933
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Please cite the source stating they are untrue.
Click to expand...

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1791/did-hitler-ban-gun-ownership
Click to expand...
I stand corrected on the quotes. However, the Brady website is very "interesting."
 
F

FogRider

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I really dislike comparing cop carry to average guy carry. I feel that the situations are too different to try to make a decent comparison. You're talking about someone who is trying his best to avoid any trouble vs. someone who deliberately steps into it. The reactions of a BG to those people are going to be different.
 
Z

zigziggityzoo

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FogRider wrote:
I really dislike comparing cop carry to average guy carry. I feel that the situations are too different to try to make a decent comparison. You're talking about someone who is trying his best to avoid any trouble vs. someone who deliberately steps into it. The reactions of a BG to those people are going to be different.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
PDinDetroit

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zigziggityzoo wrote:
FogRider wrote:
I really dislike comparing cop carry to average guy carry. I feel that the situations are too different to try to make a decent comparison. You're talking about someone who is trying his best to avoid any trouble vs. someone who deliberately steps into it. The reactions of a BG to those people are going to be different.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
Click to expand...
+2.

I believe that the reason we are compared this way is a lack of a "frame of reference". Since the only ones generally seen as OC'ing are LEO, then it is logical for people to associate our OC with LEO OC. This is the most likely reason I get asked if I am a LEO as well. The only other "frame of reference" or "reference point" would be the "Wild West", which is the other item that we are "accused" of promoting.

I truly believe that, over time, people will associate "average guy carry" with "Responsible Citizen". Until that time, I practice the following: "What someone else thinks about me is none of my business".
 
E

emptypockets

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[font="Arial, Helvetica"]"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or native police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order throughout the occupied Russian territories, and a system of military strong-points must be evolved to cover the entire occupied country." --Adolf Hitler, dinner talk on April 11, 1942, quoted in Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426.

This is quite possibly the source of the misquote I posted early that was attributed to Hitler. He did have guns registered ( Germany had a gun registration dictated in the 1928 Law on Firearms and Ammunition. Hitler toughened this law in 1938) and used it as a means for confiscation - mainly from the Jews. Regardless of what Hitler or Sarah Brady said, the fact that guns on the hips and slung across the shoulders of the private citizen -whether openly displayed or concealed - is what keeps our nation free. As many have stated here and other places, when that freedom to bear arms is surrendered for the sake of those who might be frightened by a law keeping citizen who is carrying for defensive reason then we as a people will no longer be free but subjugated by a dictator.
[/font]
 
PDinDetroit

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springerdave wrote:
PDinDetroit said,"What someone else thinks about me is none of my business". Until they send details of your "fishy" behavior to the White House for government perusal.springerdave.
Click to expand...
Really? I didn't know I was a Pisces! I thought I was a Scorpio...
 
C

CoonDog

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emptypockets wrote:
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]"Regardless of what Hitler or Sarah Brady said, the fact that guns on the hips and slung across the shoulders of the private citizen -whether openly displayed or concealed - is what keeps our nation free. As many have stated here and other places, when that freedom to bear arms is surrendered for the sake of those who might be frightened by a law keeping citizen who is carrying for defensive reason then we as a people will no longer be free but subjugated by a dictator.[/font]
Click to expand...
+1000
 
S

springerdave

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PDinDetroit wrote:
springerdave wrote:
PDinDetroit said,"What someone else thinks about me is none of my business". Until they send details of your "fishy" behavior to the White House for government perusal.springerdave.
Click to expand...
Really? I didn't know I was a Pisces! I thought I was a Scorpio...
Click to expand...

I thought what I thought about you was none of your business:lol:.springerdave.
 
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