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Thread: Is America Dead?

  1. #1
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    What sort of country do we live in?

    http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...L.html?sid=101

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb17sGJXQaw

    When are we going to stand up to these thugs and killers?

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    OK, I'll play along. Woman with a knife, likely uncomplient. What are your suggestions? Tazer, pepper spray, planed ignoring? Have you ever taken anyone down in order to restrain them? It's just not pretty and you do it the way your trained. Yeah she's 84, but she controlled the knife and took her to the ground. If she was able to have a conversation with the LEO I'm sure it turns out different. These folks need to go home at night just like the rest of us. And FWIW I don't buy the idea that they sign that away because of their job. It definitely makes it harder to go home sometimes, but they have no less a right to. And if someone stands in the way with a weapon, then sometimes they get hurt. What will you do if someone comes at you with a knife. Talk them down?

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    chiefjason wrote:
    OK, I'll play along. Woman with a knife, likely uncomplient. What are your suggestions? Tazer, pepper spray, planed ignoring? Have you ever taken anyone down in order to restrain them? It's just not pretty and you do it the way your trained. Yeah she's 84, but she controlled the knife and took her to the ground. If she was able to have a conversation with the LEO I'm sure it turns out different. These folks need to go home at night just like the rest of us. And FWIW I don't buy the idea that they sign that away because of their job. It definitely makes it harder to go home sometimes, but they have no less a right to. And if someone stands in the way with a weapon, then sometimes they get hurt. What will you do if someone comes at you with a knife. Talk them down?
    why are the cops there in the first place? did she hurt someone? did she do anything? did anyone want the cops to be there?

    the video was disgusting the cop should be in jail


    and to answer the OP's question yes america has been dead for over 100 years.



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    [/quote]
    "why are the cops there in the first place? did she hurt someone? did she do anything? did anyone want the cops to be there?

    the video was disgusting the cop should be in jail


    and to answer the OP's question yes america has been dead for over 100 years."


    [/quote]

    1- Assuming someone called, we know they rarely just "show up."
    2- It seems not at that point.
    3- Most cities have ordinances against fixed blade knives and a thing called "brandishing". Openly displaying a weapon in your hand.
    3- See 1.

    Now for my question. Where was the daughter. Shopping! Left grandma in the car and she has alzheimers. No personal responsibility for her? America is dead because noone is responsible for their own actions. It is always someone else's fault. And the cops are evil for having to come out and deal with someone's stupid mistake. The victim mentality is what is killing America. I'm sure the daughter is full of excuses, she is old, she would not hurt anyone, she's a sweet lady. But noone wants to say the daughter put her in this ridiculous situation by most likely not wanting to deal with her and shopping. My grandmother is 93 and has Alzheimer's/dementia. She is also quite mean when she needs to be. You don't leave these folks alone. It's like leaving a 5 yr old kid alone in the car.

    And this comment just floors me. Wow. Riot, equal show of force? Now that's a good idea. Sheesh.

    "I'm pissed off that there wasn't a riot or an equal show of violence from the onlookers," Edwards said in an e-mail. "The elderly lady to me represents my grandmother and the oldest person of my community that has been historically targeted for abuse by police."

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    1& 2
    chiefjason you're a statist. who the **** cares if someone called? why do the cops need to come because someone called? if nothing is happening why do the cops come? why do people call in the first place? because they've been trained to call the cops to solve all their problems.

    3
    who cares about some ******** unconstitutional ordinances. the ordinances shouldn't be there in the first place.

    lets think about this slowly.

    more laws = more criminals.
    more criminals = more cops
    more cops = more money
    more money = more control
    more control = less freedom
    less freedom = tyranny

    very easy to follow.




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    chiefjason wrote:
    OK, I'll play along. Woman with a knife, likely uncomplient. What are your suggestions? Tazer, pepper spray, planed ignoring? Have you ever taken anyone down in order to restrain them? It's just not pretty and you do it the way your trained. Yeah she's 84, but she controlled the knife and took her to the ground. If she was able to have a conversation with the LEO I'm sure it turns out different. These folks need to go home at night just like the rest of us. And FWIW I don't buy the idea that they sign that away because of their job. It definitely makes it harder to go home sometimes, but they have no less a right to. And if someone stands in the way with a weapon, then sometimes they get hurt. What will you do if someone comes at you with a knife. Talk them down?
    Bull****, a person could have walked up to her and disarmed her by hand very

    easily. There was no reason for that cop to take her down that way, none what-

    soever. Sure i wasn't there, but it would have been a whole easier if the moron had

    used her brain. Just instances like that would more than likely get me put in jail, if

    that had been a member of my family and a cop put them down like that, the gloves

    would have been off. No reason, whatsoever.

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    marine77 wrote:
    chiefjason wrote:
    OK, I'll play along. Woman with a knife, likely uncomplient. What are your suggestions? Tazer, pepper spray, planed ignoring? Have you ever taken anyone down in order to restrain them? It's just not pretty and you do it the way your trained. Yeah she's 84, but she controlled the knife and took her to the ground. If she was able to have a conversation with the LEO I'm sure it turns out different. These folks need to go home at night just like the rest of us. And FWIW I don't buy the idea that they sign that away because of their job. It definitely makes it harder to go home sometimes, but they have no less a right to. And if someone stands in the way with a weapon, then sometimes they get hurt. What will you do if someone comes at you with a knife. Talk them down?
    Bull****, a person could have walked up to her and disarmed her by hand very

    easily. There was no reason for that cop to take her down that way, none what-

    soever. Sure i wasn't there, but it would have been a whole easier if the moron had

    used her brain. Just instances like that would more than likely get me put in jail, if

    that had been a member of my family and a cop put them down like that, the gloves

    would have been off. No reason, whatsoever.
    also it should be noted when this guy says "what would you do if someone came at you with a knife"... the cop is the one who approached the woman.

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    o->i wrote:
    also it should be noted when this guy says "what would you do if someone came at you with a knife"... the cop is the one who approached the woman.
    Granny in a walker reminds me of "A Fish Called Wanda."

    Look. It's K-k-k-ken coming to k-k-k-kill me. Seriously, how hard is it to get out of the way of a granny in a walker?



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    Statist? nope. Realist, Yep. Next time you want to OC, leave the holster at home and walk around with it in your hand. Think you might attract more attention? Think people may look differently at your motives?


    Why do people call the cops? That's really a question? Maybe they are concerned that a woman is wondering around with a knife in her hand. Maybe cops are the next best folks to deal with this outside of her family. Opps, that's right her family was shopping. Guess that leave the cops.

    If you don't like the law are you going to try to change it or just break it? Thought we tried to work within the law or change it. The ordinances are there in lots of places. You cannot just ignore them. Well, I guess you can, but you get stuff like this and all the "cops are evil" that surrounds it.

    And you're right, the cop did approach the woman. It's their job! Do you expect them to martyr themselves on the alter of "It's my right."? I don't play law enforcement and try to disarm folks. I carry in case someone comes at me. LEO on the other hand get the difficult task of intervening in situations that tend to have take a turn for the worse. That's why they get called. What is your suggestion to resolve this. Ignore it? Are you going to disarm them? Let the family do it? Crap, the daughter was shopping, I keep forgetting the person RESPONSIBLE for her abandoned her. But there is no reason we should hold her accountable right. If she had been a responsible adult there would be no cops in the picture.

    So when someone is trying to get in your house at night who are you going to call? Even if you shoot first, once the smoke settles, who are you calling? We act like society can function without some form of police or the like. You have much more faith in mankind than I do if you think we will not deteriorate rapidly without laws and someone to enforce them.

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    chiefjason wrote:
    So when someone is trying to get in your house at night who are you going to call? Even if you shoot first, once the smoke settles, who are you calling?
    We have to call the parasites. The law demands it. The parasites have to justify their salaries, so they insert themselves where they don't need to be.

    We act like society can function without some form of police or the like.
    Of course, it can. And it would function much better. Only cowards need them. American police are a comprehensive failure that has destroyed the country.

    You have much more faith in mankind than I do if you think we will not deteriorate rapidly without laws and someone to enforce them.
    Phony laws and expensive costumed thugs do not make for a peaceful and thriving world.

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    o->i wrote:
    more laws = more criminals.
    more criminals = more cops
    more cops = more money
    more money = more control
    more control = less freedom
    less freedom = tyranny

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    o->i wrote:
    1& 2
    chiefjason you're a statist. who the @#$% cares if someone called? why do the cops need to come because someone called? if nothing is happening why do the cops come? why do people call in the first place? because they've been trained to call the cops to solve all their problems.

    3
    who cares about some bull@#$% unconstitutional ordinances. the ordinances shouldn't be there in the first place.

    lets think about this slowly.

    more laws = more criminals.
    more criminals = more cops
    more cops = more money
    more money = more control
    more control = less freedom
    less freedom = tyranny

    very easy to follow.
    lol nice. +1

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    smoking357 wrote:
    We act like society can function without some form of police or the like.
    Of course, it can. And it would function much better. Only cowards need them. American police are a comprehensive failure that has destroyed the country.

    You have much more faith in mankind than I do if you think we will not deteriorate rapidly without laws and someone to enforce them.
    Phony laws and expensive costumed thugs do not make for a peaceful and thriving world.
    Absolutely.

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    Im with chief on this one, and frankly am sick of all teh cop bashing. This lady did her job. She protected that lady from herself. Now imagine that they had not disarmed her and she had approached a CCDW holder with less intelligence and restraint and she had been shot to death. These cops protect people from themselves. You guys can monday morning quarterback all you want, but this lady did teh right thing, and if anyone is criminally liable its teh moron daughter in teh walmart while her 93 year old mother withe the mentality of a 6 year old is left alone with a freakin knife.

    And teh belief that society can function without police is the same moronic mindset that contributes to teh idea that gun control will reduce crime. You believe that people are naturally "good"... People are naturally animal, and what sets us apart from apes is law.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    We have to call the parasites. The law demands it. The parasites have to justify their salaries, so they insert themselves where they don't need to be.
    Please, "moochers and looters".

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    Walkeraviator wrote:
    Now imagine that they had not disarmed her and she had approached a CCDW holder with less intelligence and restraint and she had been shot to death.
    Why is it that cop apologists, regardless of board, quickly deviate from the fact pattern and demand that I imagine facts that would strain Tolkein to pen?

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    smoking357 wrote:
    Walkeraviator wrote:
    Now imagine that they had not disarmed her and she had approached a CCDW holder with less intelligence and restraint and she had been shot to death.
    Why is it that cop apologists, regardless of board, quickly deviate from the fact pattern and demand that I imagine facts that would strain Tolkein to pen?
    Its the exact same pattern that causes us to carry firearms to begin with...a bad guy "might" attack us so we need to do the prudent thing.... same situation. Cop has to do what it takes to eliminate every possibility in the tree of chaos, even the worst case scenario.

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    Walkeraviator wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    Walkeraviator wrote:
    Now imagine that they had not disarmed her and she had approached a CCDW holder with less intelligence and restraint and she had been shot to death.
    Why is it that cop apologists, regardless of board, quickly deviate from the fact pattern and demand that I imagine facts that would strain Tolkein to pen?
    Its the exact same pattern that causes us to carry firearms to begin with...a bad guy "might" attack us so we need to do the prudent thing.... same situation. Cop has to do what it takes to eliminate every possibility in the tree of chaos, even the worst case scenario.
    There is no alternate scenario. A confused granny is in a walker in a parking lot with a steak knife. That's the entire scenario.

    If the cop can't take the knife out of her hand without harming either of them, he's failed the intro level of "COPS on PS3." "Press X to retry."

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    Sometimes I wonder if these people "just happen" to be there and know how to use a cell video camera,(and how to publish it to YouTube)or if the whole thing was staged.

    Great observation that the outcome could have been more severe had the woman approached a less trained, CCW person.

    Cop didn't know about Alzhiemer's with this lady, or her age. Adrenaline muct have been pumping and cop took down and disarmed. That's procedure, right? OK.

    And leaving an old woman in a car is something to be arrested for, hundreds of children die from overheating in vehicles every year in this country, Grandma could've expired too. Arrest the daughter and charge her with elderly neglect, to start.

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    Walkeraviator wrote:
    Im with chief on this one, and frankly am sick of all teh cop bashing. This lady did her job. She protected that lady from herself. Now imagine that they had not disarmed her and she had approached a CCDW holder with less intelligence and restraint and she had been shot to death. These cops protect people from themselves. You guys can monday morning quarterback all you want, but this lady did teh right thing, and if anyone is criminally liable its teh moron daughter in teh walmart while her 93 year old mother withe the mentality of a 6 year old is left alone with a freakin knife.

    And teh belief that society can function without police is the same moronic mindset that contributes to teh idea that gun control will reduce crime. You believe that people are naturally "good"... People are naturally animal, and what sets us apart from apes is law.
    Yes, the lady did her job. But protecting the knife wielder from herself? Please. I

    guess firemen, to protect people from burning buildings need to throw the occupants

    out the window come what may, to protect them. Any normal person who

    thought she might be a danger to herself or any other would try to disarm her,

    yes i said try, and if she had fought back, how would you not be able to disarm a

    86 year old lady. Possibly then, she would have been thrown on the ground, not the

    way it was done on the video. And please, give the people who are licensed to

    carry the benefit of the doubt, we know we're targets, we know that the bullet we

    fire has to be able to be accounted for, we know we are liable to be sued for any and

    all things imaginable in this, today's society.

    Don't take this wrong, I AM NOT COP BASHING, i may be monday morning quarter-

    backing (but hey, it's sunday, lol). And yes, i am with you, the daughter should be

    held liable for leaving her mother (?) alone like that, she (the mother) definitley has

    some issues.

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    But what if this wasn't an old woman who looked like she needed assistance?

    What if this was really a whacko dressed up, baiting the officer?

    And be careful if you think this is far fetched.......men have dressed like women for the sake of shoplifting for a long, long time.




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    milkmanjoe wrote:
    But what if this wasn't an old woman who looked like she needed assistance?

    What if this was really a whacko dressed up, baiting the officer?

    And be careful if you think this is far fetched.......men have dressed like women for the sake of shoplifting for a long, long time.


    Quit playing "what if" and deal with "what is."

    The thug committed brutality on an old woman. If he were an American soldier in Iraq, he'd be on trial for the commission of war crimes.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    milkmanjoe wrote:
    But what if this wasn't an old woman who looked like she needed assistance?

    What if this was really a whacko dressed up, baiting the officer?

    And be careful if you think this is far fetched.......men have dressed like women for the sake of shoplifting for a long, long time.


    Quit playing "what if" and deal with "what is."

    The thug committed brutality on an old woman. If he were an American soldier in Iraq, he'd be on trial for the commission of war crimes.
    "What is" happens to be what we now know for sure, but can't be taken for granted at the time of incident.

    And this is not about any thug or soldier, so quit playing "what if". "If" he were an American soldier...BIG "if"....and...."IF" my aunt had balls she would be my uncle.

    Right?




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    milkmanjoe wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    milkmanjoe wrote:
    But what if this wasn't an old woman who looked like she needed assistance?

    What if this was really a whacko dressed up, baiting the officer?

    And be careful if you think this is far fetched.......men have dressed like women for the sake of shoplifting for a long, long time.


    Quit playing "what if" and deal with "what is."

    The thug committed brutality on an old woman. If he were an American soldier in Iraq, he'd be on trial for the commission of war crimes.
    "What is" happens to be what we now know for sure, but can't be taken for granted at the time of incident.
    I could have sworn I posted a video. Yes, it seems I did.

    We know "what is." The thug knew "what is."

    The only "if" we're now debating is the punishment that the officer needs to face.



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    smoking357 wrote:
    milkmanjoe wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    milkmanjoe wrote:
    But what if this wasn't an old woman who looked like she needed assistance?

    What if this was really a whacko dressed up, baiting the officer?

    And be careful if you think this is far fetched.......men have dressed like women for the sake of shoplifting for a long, long time.


    Quit playing "what if" and deal with "what is."

    The thug committed brutality on an old woman. If he were an American soldier in Iraq, he'd be on trial for the commission of war crimes.
    "What is" happens to be what we now know for sure, but can't be taken for granted at the time of incident.
    I could have sworn I posted a video. Yes, it seems I did.

    We know "what is." The thug knew "what is."

    The only "if" we're now debating is the punishment that the officer needs to face.

    I saw the video...... the cop did not know the exact situation at the time of the incident, most facts came out after this video was shot. Cops rarely know a situation they are walking into, and I'm no pro cop guy, but I look at it this way...if you have to carry a gun for your job it's not a safe job. Did anyone wonder why none of those people surrounding this situation before the cop came helped the lady? They all looked on, doing nothing. Since I have read here that it should be pretty easy to disarm an old woman how come none of those people knew she was just an old lady and didn't disarm her?

    We are not debating what the punishmentis, you are. And I wonder who appointed you judge, jury and executioner.


    I come into these forums to learn and to bounce ideas back and forth, ultimately enhancing education of any sort of firearm use and the laws that govern such use. Posting a video and condemning a person is no way to be part of our system. All facts must be discovered, then an intelligent assesment made and an avenue taken within the laws. This country stopped hanging people a long time ago, now allow the facts to surface and the law to take its course.

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