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Thread: Open Carry in San Diego to San Marcos

  1. #1
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    Hey guys! I'm a Utah subforum guy, but I've been frequenting the PRK quite a bit this summer. Most of my time is in San Diego, Rancho Santa Fe and San Marcos.

    I brought my sidearm last trip (since we drove), but only carried in Utah and Arizona (NV just cancelled reciprocity with us - dirty birds). Anyways, I carried at our residence in CA, but not outside. I recently read an article from the San Diego Weekly Reader ( http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2009/jul/15/cover/ ) and was surprised.

    What I want to know is how I can OC in the areas I will frequent. The only thing I know is that your mags must only carry 10 or less rounds. And I think you can't have the mag in the firearm, it must be kept separate.

    I appreciate your help, please let me know what to do and what to expect. Thanks!

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    www.californiaopencarry.org is a great one-stop shop for info.

    just be mindful of the LE memos and DA memos... some of it is FUD; they're posted mostly for posterity.

    You're bound to have questions. Please search the forum with specific questions. If you don't find it, feel free to ask, most of us know where to find the answers.
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    Hello to all!

    This is my first posting and I saw thiswhere the gentleman from UT was stating that loaded mags were OK as long as they were 10 Rnds. I think that may be inaccurate in that if you owned a firearm and magazines BEFORE the Hi-Cap magazine ban can into place here in Commiefornia they are grandfathered in and are legal to possess and I see no reason not to carry them.

    I am still a cherry where as I've only open carried once here in OC.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Berzerker wrote:
    Hello to all!

    This is my first posting and I saw thiswhere the gentleman from UT was stating that loaded mags were OK as long as they were 10 Rnds. I think that may be inaccurate in that if you owned a firearm and magazines BEFORE the Hi-Cap magazine ban can into place here in Commiefornia they are grandfathered in and are legal to possess and I see no reason not to carry them.

    I am still a cherry where as I've only open carried once here in OC.
    I think that need a little clarification.

    If you owned a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds prior to January 1, 2000,

    AND

    You had that magazine actually in the State of California prior to January 1, 2000,

    THEN

    It is legal for you to bring that magazine back into the State.

    So, if you bought the magazine in Utah in 1998 (pre-ban), and then brough the magazine with you when you came to California on vacation in 1999 (pre-ban), you can bring it back into California legally.

    The ban does not apply to:

    PC 12020(b) (23) The importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously lawfully possessed in the state.


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    Well-stated, Decoligny.

    I would only add:

    If you are from out of state, you would be wise to have some sort of proof you had the magazine in the state before the ban. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe statutory exemptions are only a 'positive defense'. That is, the burden of proof is on you to show you meet the exemption.

    Since possession is not a crime, the burden of proof would be on the DA to show that you imported, manufactured, or attempted to sell the 'large-capacity' magazine.

    However, if you didn't reside in state prior to the ban, then it would be easy to assert that you imported the mags (legally or not). Since importation is a crime, you would need to prove an exemption.
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    Just a little off topic, but has anybody UOC'ed while getting a haircut? What to do about the drape?
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    How about a meeting in North San Diego County ? Yes, I watched the videos and took notes. Yes , I looked at Pull&Shoot 25 's website and found nothing listed for future events. Yes, I read everything over at Calguns. So what about a meeting in North San diego county ?

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    coolusername2007 wrote:
    Just a little off topic, but has anybody UOC'ed while getting a haircut? What to do about the drape?
    Yes. Please see my police encounter. Bear in mind that at the time, it didn't matter whether it was exposed or concealed as I held a valid license to carry concealed. The drape can be tucked behind your weapon but you willprobably get clippings all over.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    ConditionThree wrote:
    coolusername2007 wrote:
    Just a little off topic, but has anybody UOC'ed while getting a haircut? What to do about the drape?
    Yes. Please see my police encounter. Bear in mind that at the time, it didn't matter whether it was exposed or concealed as I held a valid license to carry concealed. The drape can be tucked behind your weapon but you willprobably get clippings all over.
    quick question - if a person holds the Calif. permit to conceal, does the fact that they open carry void any of the immunities for , e.g., carrying in school zone, carry loaded in an incorporated area, etc?

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    ConditionThree wrote:
    coolusername2007 wrote:
    Just a little off topic, but has anybody UOC'ed while getting a haircut? What to do about the drape?
    Yes. Please see my police encounter. Bear in mind that at the time, it didn't matter whether it was exposed or concealed as I held a valid license to carry concealed. The drape can be tucked behind your weapon but you willprobably get clippings all over.
    I have. I tried to keep the drape behind my gun.

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    horsetrader wrote:
    How about a meeting in North San Diego County ? Yes, I watched the videos and took notes. Yes , I looked at Pull&Shoot 25 's website and found nothing listed for future events. Yes, I read everything over at Calguns. So what about a meeting in North San diego county ?
    There's a meeting being organized at the Bass Pro Shop in Rancho Cucamonga. Check out the thread here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/29070.html If you want to attend let me know.
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    Mike wrote:
    ConditionThree wrote:
    coolusername2007 wrote:
    Just a little off topic, but has anybody UOC'ed while getting a haircut? What to do about the drape?
    Yes. Please see my police encounter. Bear in mind that at the time, it didn't matter whether it was exposed or concealed as I held a valid license to carry concealed. The drape can be tucked behind your weapon but you willprobably get clippings all over.
    quick question - if a person holds the Calif. permit to conceal, does the fact that they open carry void any of the immunities for , e.g., carrying in school zone, carry loaded in an incorporated area, etc?
    No. There is no statutory duty for a licenseeto conceal- (unless the issuing authority imprints a "reasonable restriction" on the license as per 12050 (b) and (c)). 12031, 626.9 and 171(b) do not stipulate in their exemptions what format the license must be for the exemptions to be in effect.

    This in no way inhibited the Sheriff in his decision to revoke my license to conceal, however.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    ConditionThree wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    ConditionThree wrote:
    coolusername2007 wrote:
    Just a little off topic, but has anybody UOC'ed while getting a haircut? What to do about the drape?
    Yes. Please see my police encounter. Bear in mind that at the time, it didn't matter whether it was exposed or concealed as I held a valid license to carry concealed. The drape can be tucked behind your weapon but you willprobably get clippings all over.
    quick question - if a person holds the Calif. permit to conceal, does the fact that they open carry void any of the immunities for , e.g., carrying in school zone, carry loaded in an incorporated area, etc?
    No. There is no statutory duty for a licenseeto conceal- (unless the issuing authority imprints a "reasonable restriction" on the license as per 12050 (b) and (c)). 12031, 626.9 and 171(b) do not stipulate in their exemptions what format the license must be for the exemptions to be in effect.

    This in no way inhibited the Sheriff in his decision to revoke my license to conceal, however.

    I agree with C3s assesment completely. The only 'legal wrangling' that I think would be possible is that since CA has statutory licenses for both Open Carry & Concealed Carry a DA might somehow try to prove that Concealed must be concealed and that open must be open.


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    ConditionThree wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    quick question - if a person holds the Calif. permit to conceal, does the fact that they open carry void any of the immunities for , e.g., carrying in school zone, carry loaded in an incorporated area, etc?
    No. There is no statutory duty for a licenseeto conceal- (unless the issuing authority imprints a "reasonable restriction" on the license as per 12050 (b) and (c)). 12031, 626.9 and 171(b) do not stipulate in their exemptions what format the license must be for the exemptions to be in effect.

    This in no way inhibited the Sheriff in his decision to revoke my license to conceal, however.
    I would only add that it is common FUD in CA for CCW instructors, gun shop owners, etc to proclaim that even accidental exposure of a concealed firearm by a CCW permitee is 'brandishing'.

    I have yet to find a single person who can prove this claim.
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    A California CCW does not allow you to openly carry a loaded weapon. There is a separate permit for that (which are apparently never issued). You must still unload when open carrying in incorporated areas. But as the issuance of permits is discretionary, so is the revocation of permits, and people have had their CCWs revoked by the Sheriff for open carry even if they were following the law.
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    wewd wrote:
    A California CCW does not allow you to openly carry a loaded weapon. There is a separate permit for that (which are apparently never issued). You must still unload when open carrying in incorporated areas. But as the issuance of permits is discretionary, so is the revocation of permits, and people have had their CCWs revoked by the Sheriff for open carry even if they were following the law.
    Citation please. The issuance of a license allows the activity of concealing a weapon, which is criminalized by 12025.

    Please show me where 12050 invalidates the license for incidental and deliberate exposed carry where it it otherwise lawul.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    There might be some confusion here specifically in Wewd's case if he has an SBSO issued CCW.

    I'm not positive, but I believe SBSO specifically prints "Weapon Must Be Concealed" as a 'reasonable restriction for method of carry'

    In most regards a CA CCW is outstanding compared to most states...including Arizona; but when local CLEOs get to makeup whatever 'reasonable restrictions' they want the CA system as a whole can get REALLY fubar.


    Edited to add:

    incase I was too vague...any CA CLEO can statutorily

    "include any reasonable restrictions or
    conditions which the issuing authority deems warranted, including
    restrictions as to the time, place, manner, and circumstances under
    which the person may carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm
    capable of being concealed upon the person.
    (c) Any restrictions imposed pursuant to subdivision (b) shall be
    indicated on any license issued."

    If the licensee doesn't abide by the printed restrictions the license becomes invalid while those condition are not met. i.e. if "Weapon Must Be Concealed" is a printed restriction; then the license is not in effect while Open Carrying (whereby PC 12025 is now irrelevant) there is no exemption from PC 12031 for its loaded condition.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    wewd wrote:
    A California CCW does not allow you to openly carry a loaded weapon. There is a separate permit for that (which are apparently never issued).
    Those permits exist only for counties containing fewer than 200,000 residents:
    Code:
    12050. (a) (1) (B) The chief or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county, upon proof that the person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists for the issuance, and that the person applying is a resident of that city and has completed a course of training as described in subparagraph (E), may issue to that person a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in either one of the following formats: 
    
    (ii) Where the population of the county in which the city is located is less than 200,000 persons according to the most recent federal decennial census, a license to carry loaded and exposed in that county a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
    Only 31 of 58 counties have fewer than 200,000 residents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_counties )

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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    wewd wrote:
    A California CCW does not allow you to openly carry a loaded weapon. There is a separate permit for that (which are apparently never issued).
    Those permits exist only for counties containing fewer than 200,000 residents:
    Code:
    12050. (a) (1) (B) The chief or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county, upon proof that the person applying is of good moral character, that good cause exists for the issuance, and that the person applying is a resident of that city and has completed a course of training as described in subparagraph (E), may issue to that person a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in either one of the following formats: 
    
    (ii) Where the population of the county in which the city is located is less than 200,000 persons according to the most recent federal decennial census, a license to carry loaded and exposed in that county a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
    Only 31 of 58 counties have fewer than 200,000 residents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_counties )
    However, there is no statute which prohibits Open Carry (in general), so the license (12050. (a) (1) (B) (ii) - aka the Open Carry License) is a moot point.

    Statutorily, there is nothing to prevent a person licensed accoring to 12050. (a) (1) (B) (i) - aka theConcealed Carry License from having an exemption to PC 12031 for having a loaded weapon.



  22. #22
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    Code:
    12031
    
    ...
    
    (b) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following:
    
    ...
    
    (6) The carrying of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable
    of being concealed upon the person by persons who are authorized to
    carry those weapons pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section
    12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4.
    
    ...
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  23. #23
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    Forum wouldn't let me write outside the quotes on my above post...

    The point is that if you are AUTHORIZED to carry pursuant to 12050, then you are exempted from 12031.
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  24. #24
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    The point is that if you are AUTHORIZED to carry pursuant to 12050, then you are exempted from 12031.
    And of course regardless of your license status, everyone is exempt from the 12031(e) checks outside of btoh (1) incorporated areas and (2) the portions, if any, of unincorporated areas where shooting has been banned by the County.

    So strangely, an open carry license might have little in no value in rural counties with less than 200,000 people anyway.

    California's gun statutes are the most bizzarre in the nation - they seem to be written by folks who do not understand how they operate.

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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Well-stated, Decoligny.

    I would only add:

    If you are from out of state, you would be wise to have some sort of proof you had the magazine in the state before the ban. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe statutory exemptions are only a 'positive defense'. That is, the burden of proof is on you to show you meet the exemption.

    Since possession is not a crime, the burden of proof would be on the DA to show that you imported, manufactured, or attempted to sell the 'large-capacity' magazine.

    However, if you didn't reside in state prior to the ban, then it would be easy to assert that you imported the mags (legally or not). Since importation is a crime, you would need to prove an exemption.
    Well luckily I am a native Commiefornian so I guess the HC's are ok to carry. I also have some 10 rnd mags that I bought later on. I always like to have at least 4-5 mags for each pistol.

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