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Thread: NRA Instructors discourage OC

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    I've had four different NRA Instructors here in Colorado actively discourage open carry in their classes and in private conversation. They gave the tired old excuse that the open carrier would be the first target and all that. I suspect there are other REAL reasons why they don't want law abiding citizens to open carry. Are there any NRA Instructors that could shed some light on this?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Izod wrote:
    I've had four different NRA Instructors here in Colorado actively discourage open carry in their classes and in private conversation. They gave the tired old excuse that the open carrier would be the first target and all that. I suspect there are other REAL reasons why they don't want law abiding citizens to open carry. Are there any NRA Instructors that could shed some light on this?
    I am an NRA instructor and while not in Colorado.. heve never received any coaching or been asked to exress what you say. I don't think OC is for everyone.. it is a personal choice. I happen to choose to and believe is is the right choice for me.

    carry on.



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    Izod wrote:
    I've had four different NRA Instructors here in Colorado actively discourage open carry in their classes and in private conversation. They gave the tired old excuse that the open carrier would be the first target and all that.
    What do you mean by "actively discourage?"



    Izod wrote:
    I suspect there are other REAL reasons why they don't want law abiding citizens to open carry.
    Huh? What might they be?

    Anti-2A? Orders from LaPierre? Obamais promisingfree health careto all the instructors?



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    In two different Concealed Carry classes (attended by my dad and my wife) and in personal conversations at my local gun club, the instructors plainly said that they "discourage open carry." They gave the same list we've all seen on why concealed carry is supposedly superior to open carry.

    On a similar note, I've only been stopped by one person who told me I shouldn't be open carrying and, upon further examination, I found out he had his concealed carry license here in Colorado. He'd been told by his NRA Instructor that a person would be arrested for 'causing alarm' if he open carried.

    So, in my personal experience, I have only heard NRA Instructors teaching Concealed Carry = good, Open Carry = bad.

    Admittedly, my sample size is limited and I'd be glad to hear that I'm completely off base with this but I haven't heard anything that would challenge this perception, yet.

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    Lone Star Veteran Ian's Avatar
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    Why WOULD they encourage OC? They are want people to CC so they take their class!

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    Prime reason NRA instructors discourage open carry: They are teaching a CC class, one which the state has mandated you take before receiving the "privilege" to carry. It is not in the instructors fiduciary interests to tell students they wasted $150 on his CC class and they could have open carried w/o a permit all along. There, I said it. Anyone is free to disagree.

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    Izod wrote:
    I've had four different NRA Instructors here in Colorado actively discourage open carry in their classes and in private conversation. They gave the tired old excuse that the open carrier would be the first target and all that. I suspect there are other REAL reasons why they don't want law abiding citizens to open carry. Are there any NRA Instructors that could shed some light on this?
    As an NRA instructor myself, my fellow NRA instructors should make it clear that they are NOT speaking as an NRA instructorwhen discussing subject matteroutside the realm of the course (Basic Pistol, Home Defense, etc.) which they are teaching.

    If they fail to do so, they should be reminded of their training, and if they do not cease and desist, they should be reported to the NRA.

    All above is IMHO.

    As required,in my classesI make it VERY clear when I have (figuratively) taken off my NRA instructor's hat.

    btw - the NRA does not have a concealed carry course, it's just that the content of the Basic Pistol class (among others) meets the time, classroom and range subject matter requirements of a number of states.

    Furthermore,I disagree with nakedshoplifter's generalization.

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    I was an NRA instructor until I learned of the lie that is the NRA.

    The existence of the NRA and their stock in trade depends on selling exceptions to Second Amendment infringements, like concealing a weapon. Thus the NRA uses its political clout to encourage and pass permitted CCW legislation.

    The NRA Emperor has no clothes! Only its paid/subscribing apologists defend.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    NRA instructors are not the "evil"NRA,Mark and Doug. Justification by oversimplication is poor logic.

    Nor is anyonewho is a member of, or a certified instructor of the NRAa mind-numbed robot who finds the organization as faultless as you find it faulty.

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Prime reason NRA instructors discourage open carry: They are teaching a CC class, one which the state has mandated you take before receiving the "privilege" to carry. It is not in the instructors fiduciary interests to tell students they wasted $150 on his CC class and they could have open carried w/o a permit all along. There, I said it. Anyone is free to disagree.
    I can second that opinion. My first inquiry into open carry and concealed carry came when I called Les Hayes at "Shooting Solutions LLC" here in the Denver metro. I was given the run down on the CCW class and then I asked about his opinion on open carry. This man, Les Hayes, Is a certified NRA instructor- whether or not that played into his answer- whatever..

    Paraphrasing, he told me "Open carry just draws to much attention and upsets to many people- just come in and take the class and you won't have to worry about it."

    Now just MAYBE and I say MAYBE- I would want to touch on the fact that this man is less willing to work on the social issue of open carry than he is willing to work towards getting everybody into a CCW. Seems, for him, it's just easier to cram $150 into his pocket than it is to stand up for your right to open carry, regardless of the social paradigm that exists around the subject. Just my humble one Maybe.

    None the less I was impressed with the man and his general outlook.



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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Time out: I never called or insinuated NRA instructors/members are "mind-numb robots."...
    That's a fair criticism.

    That portion of the sentence was directed at Doug's "The NRA Emperor has no clothes! Only its paid/subscribing apologists defend" statement.

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    The reason given in my Personal Protection class was "You won't get very far." That's a personal choice. A lot of people here are okay with irritating encounters with sheeple and LEOs. Or see it as an important part of activism and education. I agree. However on a lot days, it's more important to me to worry strictly about the self-defense aspect of my sidearm w/o the the extra effort. Self-defense, always. Activism when it doesn't interfere with the former.

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    I know an instructor here in Colorado and he does no such thing, he teaches the class for CC, and supports OC. While he doesn't encourage it during his class, he does support it.

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    BB62 wrote:
    That portion of the sentence was directed at Doug's "The NRA Emperor has no clothes! Only its paid/subscribing apologists defend" statement.
    How is that an insult?

    What fraction of National Rifle Association certified instructors teach for free?

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    I was an NRA instructor until I learned of the lie that is the NRA.

    Doug, how many years were you an NRA instructor?

    When was it?

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    BB62


    As an NRA instructor myself, my fellow NRA instructors should make it clear that they are NOT speaking as an NRA instructorwhen discussing subject matteroutside the realm of the course (Basic Pistol, Home Defense, etc.) which they are teaching.


    btw - the NRA does not have a concealed carry course, it's just that the content of the Basic Pistol class (among others) meets the time, classroom and range subject matter requirements of a number of states.


    +++++++++++++++++++

    1. There is no "Home Defense" course - it is Personal Protection in the Home

    2. There is "a concealed carry course" - it is Personal Protection Outside the Home

    Are you really a NRA Instructor ? If so you should know this.



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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    IDAHO COWBOY wrote:
    1. There is no "Home Defense" course - it is Personal Protection in the Home
    There is a Home Firearm Safety Course... and it qulifies as trainign in VA for the CHP.. some students call it a CHP course.. when they mean it is a course that they can attend to then apply for their CHP>

    Ed

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    Back to Izod's original point, I have also heard several NRA instructors (including the ones who taught my Basic Pistol class for a CCW) discourage OC.

    I've also heard gun shop employees/owners discourage OC. In fact, I overheard Richard (one of the head managers) at Firing Line tell someone that they would be arrested on the spot if they OCd. I also cannot help but notice that Firing Line and other gun shops/ranges makes quite a bit of money on their CCW courses.
    "There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them. It went by in the Night of Depression, singing songs of freedom" -- Garet Garrett, The Revolution Was (1938)

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    scubabeme
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    I overheard a conversation in Gunsmoke (~44th & Kipling)--one of the staff maintained that it was flat illegal to OC (I countered but I could tell he was *SURE* he was right), a little later another stated that while it is legal, "technically," it's a really bad idea because, as others have stated that they've heard, you'd nearly immediately be arrested and charged with a felony charge of brandishing and you would therefore subsequently lose the CCW.

    Really still trying to get up the huevos to try OC. I have a CCW and use it daily.

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    scubabeme wrote:
    I overheard a conversation in Gunsmoke (~44th & Kipling)--one of the staff maintained that it was flat illegal to OC (I countered but I could tell he was *SURE* he was right), a little later another stated that while it is legal, "technically," it's a really bad idea because, as others have stated that they've heard, you'd nearly immediately be arrested and charged with a felony charge of brandishing and you would therefore subsequently lose the CCW.

    Really still trying to get up the huevos to try OC. I have a CCW and use it daily.
    Bunch of hooey! I can't attest as to the motivation behind the comments made by these people. But I'd imagine it's either monetarily motivated or just plain ignorance!

    I've OC'd for many years and never once have I even been hassled, much less illegally arrested! I have sparked more than a few disscussions with sheeple as to why I OC. Or even carry a gun for that matter. However I've only once been hassled for having a gun, and that was for a traqffic stop and it was a rookie who was made to appologize to me later on.

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    Well, it seems I'm not the only one to see a trend here. I know there are good guys and bad guys in every organization, but there seems to an institutional motivation for people in positions of leadership (NRA, gun shops, et cetera) to discourage OC. I'm certainly not including the few ethical NRA instructors that must be out there, but as a general rule, I see nothing that would persuade me that the NRA is 100% behind the free exercise of my Constitutional right to bear arms.

    It would be nice if everyone could just be honest about their reason to discourage OC rather than babble on about 'you'll be the first target', 'oh, OC is illegal', 'you'll be arrested for brandishing', 'tactically you're better off concealing (LOL)' and so on. Just be up front and admit it's all about the money. Then, realize that freedom and the bill of rights is worth more than the little bit of money you can get from teaching a concealed carry class.

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    Izod wrote:
    Well, it seems I'm not the only one to see a trend here. I know there are good guys and bad guys in every organization, but there seems to an institutional motivation for people in positions of leadership (NRA, gun shops, et cetera) to discourage OC. I'm certainly not including the few ethical NRA instructors that must be out there, but as a general rule, I see nothing that would persuade me that the NRA is 100% behind the free exercise of my Constitutional right to bear arms.

    It would be nice if everyone could just be honest about their reason to discourage OC rather than babble on about 'you'll be the first target', 'oh, OC is illegal', 'you'll be arrested for brandishing', 'tactically you're better off concealing (LOL)' and so on. Just be up front and admit it's all about the money. Then, realize that freedom and the bill of rights is worth more than the little bit of money you can get from teaching a concealed carry class.
    +1 Well said.

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    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    The instructor that taught my class for CWP never did discourage OC, but he did say you may/will have encounters with a LEO.


    IMO, we shouldn't be PRO one side, CON another. We should say both are great options and let people make up their own minds.


    .02

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    I live in South Dakota and have open carried on trips thru SD, Wyoming and into Colorado without any problems with law enforcement or the general population. Went into stores, gas stations and restaurants as well as rest stops. Was only approached once by an individual who asked me about carry and the law at a rest stop area.

    I ate at a restaurant at a table near a group of police officers and they noticed my Glock on my hip. They never said anything and did not give me any undue attention.

    This business of being immediately arrested for OC is bull. Now if I was acting strangely while carrying I could see the possibility of a law enforcement encounter. Behave yourself and be polite and there should not be a problem.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Whether or not you realize it, by applying for a permission slip, you're further empowering the state, the very people who violate you.
    Do you REALLY want to do that?
    So you have never had a background check?

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