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NRA Instructors discourage OC

entartet17

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Back to Izod's original point, I have also heard several NRA instructors (including the ones who taught my Basic Pistol class for a CCW) discourage OC.

I've also heard gun shop employees/owners discourage OC. In fact, I overheard Richard (one of the head managers) at Firing Line tell someone that they would be arrested on the spot if they OCd. I also cannot help but notice that Firing Line and other gun shops/ranges makes quite a bit of money on their CCW courses.
 
S

scubabeme

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I overheard a conversation in Gunsmoke (~44th & Kipling)--one of the staff maintained that it was flat illegal to OC (I countered but I could tell he was *SURE* he was right), a little later another stated that while it is legal, "technically," it's a really bad idea because, as others have stated that they've heard, you'd nearly immediately be arrested and charged with a felony charge of brandishing and you would therefore subsequently lose the CCW.

Really still trying to get up the huevos to try OC. I have a CCW and use it daily.
 

Ape

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scubabeme wrote:
I overheard a conversation in Gunsmoke (~44th & Kipling)--one of the staff maintained that it was flat illegal to OC (I countered but I could tell he was *SURE* he was right), a little later another stated that while it is legal, "technically," it's a really bad idea because, as others have stated that they've heard, you'd nearly immediately be arrested and charged with a felony charge of brandishing and you would therefore subsequently lose the CCW.

Really still trying to get up the huevos to try OC. I have a CCW and use it daily.

Bunch of hooey! I can't attest as to the motivation behind the comments made by these people. But I'd imagine it's either monetarily motivated or just plain ignorance!

I've OC'd for many years and never once have I even been hassled, much less illegally arrested! I have sparked more than a few disscussions with sheeple as to why I OC. Or even carry a gun for that matter. However I've only once been hassled for having a gun, and that was for a traqffic stop and it was a rookie who was made to appologize to me later on.
 

Izod

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Well, it seems I'm not the only one to see a trend here. I know there are good guys and bad guys in every organization, but there seems to an institutional motivation for people in positions of leadership (NRA, gun shops, et cetera) to discourage OC. I'm certainly not including the few ethical NRA instructors that must be out there, but as a general rule, I see nothing that would persuade me that the NRA is 100% behind the free exercise of my Constitutional right to bear arms.

It would be nice if everyone could just be honest about their reason to discourage OC rather than babble on about 'you'll be the first target', 'oh, OC is illegal', 'you'll be arrested for brandishing', 'tactically you're better off concealing (LOL)' and so on. Just be up front and admit it's all about the money. Then, realize that freedom and the bill of rights is worth more than the little bit of money you can get from teaching a concealed carry class.
 

centsi

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Izod wrote:
Well, it seems I'm not the only one to see a trend here. I know there are good guys and bad guys in every organization, but there seems to an institutional motivation for people in positions of leadership (NRA, gun shops, et cetera) to discourage OC. I'm certainly not including the few ethical NRA instructors that must be out there, but as a general rule, I see nothing that would persuade me that the NRA is 100% behind the free exercise of my Constitutional right to bear arms.

It would be nice if everyone could just be honest about their reason to discourage OC rather than babble on about 'you'll be the first target', 'oh, OC is illegal', 'you'll be arrested for brandishing', 'tactically you're better off concealing (LOL)' and so on. Just be up front and admit it's all about the money. Then, realize that freedom and the bill of rights is worth more than the little bit of money you can get from teaching a concealed carry class.
+1 Well said.
 

zach

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The instructor that taught my class for CWP never did discourage OC, but he did say you may/will have encounters with a LEO.


IMO, we shouldn't be PRO one side, CON another. We should say both are great options and let people make up their own minds.


.02
 

SDguy

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, South Dakota, USA
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I live in South Dakota and have open carried on trips thru SD, Wyoming and into Colorado without any problems with law enforcement or the general population. Went into stores, gas stations and restaurants as well as rest stops. Was only approached once by an individual who asked me about carry and the law at a rest stop area.

I ate at a restaurant at a table near a group of police officers and they noticed my Glock on my hip. They never said anything and did not give me any undue attention.

This business of being immediately arrested for OC is bull. Now if I was acting strangely while carrying I could see the possibility of a law enforcement encounter. Behave yourself and be polite and there should not be a problem.
 

zach

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mark edward marchiafava wrote:
Whether or not you realize it, by applying for a permission slip, you're further empowering the state, the very people who violate you.
Do you REALLY want to do that?

So you have never had a background check?
 

Jared

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I am an NRA instructor. They have never discourage open carry. The instructors are just being idiots. In MI I just go over the basic pistol class.... And as hard as it may be to believe.... The law. I FULLY cover open carry and ccw. I even include 4th amendment case law.
 

Izod

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Jared, you're just the kind of guy I would like to have teaching courses. Law and Bill of Rights! Unfortunately, I think your personal ethics are not a normal part of the NRA culture.
 

SANDCREEK

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It's called IGNORANCE. Discouraging the exercise of a constitutionally guaranteed RIGHT - on the one hand - in order to incourage SUBMISSION to a State licensed privilege. Makes no sense.

So what if OC results in a "LEO encounter". People are already experiencing LEO encounters - primarily every time they operate a motor vehicle they risk LEO encounters. Those encounters are increasingly becoming more and more INTRUSIVE , OPPRESSIVE, and ILLEGAL also !

An elderly couple in GA is ripped apart by a pack of wild dogs - while that State requires a LICENSE [still ?] in order to exercise the RIGHT of self defense. Anyone else see something seeriously wrong in this picture. OH - and we are assured that the risk of being shredded by wild dogs is LESS THAN that of being struck by lightning. GREAT !

I will take the lightning strike over the wild dog shredding anytime. Pure stupidity.
 

BB62

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Izod wrote:
Well, it seems I'm not the only one to see a trend here. I know there are good guys and bad guys in every organization, but there seems to an institutional motivation for people in positions of leadership (NRA, gun shops, et cetera) to discourage OC. I'm certainly not including the few ethical NRA instructors that must be out there, but as a general rule, I see nothing that would persuade me that the NRA is 100% behind the free exercise of my Constitutional right to bear arms.
You are wrong to include all NRA instructors in your sweeping generalization, and conclusion.

I wouldsay that the vast majority ofgun owners think OC is illegal,unnecessary, and provocative - and NRA instructors are simply a subset of that group.

Just because you are an NRA instructor doesn't mean that you are or are not a rights activist - which is what I would call all of us here on OCDO.

I'm not going to disagree that the NRA has been much less than supportive of OC than I would like, but I don't ascribe it to "we keep the power" as you seem to.
 

Flyer22

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For those who are critizising the NRA, you need to realize something. Namely: OC is not the standard that it was 100+ years ago.

The relative positions of OC and CC have completely switched. As most of us know, back in the Old West, OC was the standard and CC was oftenfrowned upon. The two have traded places today. Over the years, forvarious reasons, OC pretty much went away. Oh, sure, once in a while you might see somebody carrying; and in some places the culture of OC never reallywent away.

But in the last 15-20 years, as states began shifting the pendulum back to citizens, to make self-defense matters easier, the whole, entire, complete discussion was about CC, and CC only! I have lived in Colorado Springs, one of the most gun-friendly places in the nation, for 17 years. We have the highest number of CC permits in the state. But in those 17 years, the number of OC'ers that Ihave noticedis in the single digits. And I have reason to believe that I am more observant than the average person. It's possible, of course, that I have simply had fewer than average sightings. But even so, that's an awfully small number for a medium-size city.

Now when somebody does OC, most people don't even blink. The culture is still here. But the actual number of people who "live up" to the culture by OCis extremely low.
 

Izod

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Apparently you missed the part where I pointed out that I don't lump all NRA instructors together....of course there are good guys and bad guys. I just don't have any experience that would refute my current perception of NRA instructors in general. In my experience, every NRA instructor I have come into contact with personally has discouraged OC, adamantly.
I do believe that someone who chooses to wear a name tag that says 'instructor' SHOULD have a solid handle on the subject they teach. Not knowing the law regarding open carry and concealed carry is inexcusable.

BB62 wrote:
Izod wrote:
Well, it seems I'm not the only one to see a trend here. I know there are good guys and bad guys in every organization, but there seems to an institutional motivation for people in positions of leadership (NRA, gun shops, et cetera) to discourage OC. I'm certainly not including the few ethical NRA instructors that must be out there, but as a general rule, I see nothing that would persuade me that the NRA is 100% behind the free exercise of my Constitutional right to bear arms.
You are wrong to include all NRA instructors in your sweeping generalization, and conclusion.

I wouldsay that the vast majority ofgun owners think OC is illegal,unnecessary, and provocative - and NRA instructors are simply a subset of that group.

Just because you are an NRA instructor doesn't mean that you are or are not a rights activist - which is what I would call all of us here on OCDO.

I'm not going to disagree that the NRA has been much less than supportive of OC than I would like, but I don't ascribe it to "we keep the power" as you seem to.
 

Pat-inCO

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BB62 wrote:
btw - the NRA does not have a concealed carry course,
It DOES have two different "Personal Protection" courses that heavily discus concealed carry, and, more importantly, the laws that pertain to concealed carry.

Back to the OP: I would say that most likely, they remember the CC creed of "be as unobtrusive as possible". DO NOT stand out, DO NOT get in people's faces.

When you consider open carry vs concealed carry, which is most likely to NOT be noticed? :D

OR, it could just be these:

1. We don't carry firearms so that we can ignore other basics of personal safety. Every permit holder that I know realizes that almost all dangerous situations can be avoided by vigilance, alertness and by simply making wise choices about where we go and what we do. We don't walk down dark alleys. We lock our cars. We don't get intoxicated in public or hang out around people who do. We park our cars in well lighted spots and don't hang out in bad parts of town where we have no business. Using a gun is the last resort.

2. We don't think we are cops, spies, or superheros. We aren't hoping that somebody tries to rob the convenience store while we are there so we can shoot a criminal. We don't take it upon ourselves to get involved in situations that are better handled by a 911 call or by simply standing by and being a good witness. We don't believe our guns give us any authority. We also aren't here to be your unpaid volunteer bodyguard. We'll be glad to tell you where we trained and point you to some good gun shops if you feel you would like to take this kind of responsibility, but it's your choice. Except for extraordinary circumstances, your business is your business, don't expect us to help you out of situations you could have avoided.

3. We are LESS likely to be involved in fights or "rage" incidents than the general public. We recognize, better than many unarmed citizens, that we are responsible for our actions. We take the responsibility of carrying a firearm very seriously. We know that loss of temper, getting into fights or angrily confronting someone after a traffic incident could easily escalate into a dangerous situation. We are more likely to go out of our way to avoid these situations. We don't pull our guns to settle arguments and especially do NOT attempt to threaten people into doing what we want.

4. We are responsible gun owners. We secure our firearms so that children and other unauthorized people cannot access them. Most of us have invested in safes, cases and lock boxes as well as other security measures to keep our firearms secure. Many of us belong to various organizations that promote firearms safety and ownership.

5. Guns are not unsafe or unpredictable! Modern firearms are well made precision instruments. Pieces do not simply break off causing them to fire. A hot day will not set them off. Most modern firearms will not discharge even if dropped. There is no reason to be afraid of a gun simply laying on a table or in a holster. It is not going to discharge on its own.

6. We do not believe in the concept of "accidental" discharges. There are no accidental discharges! The gun fires when we want it to or it was a negligent discharge. We take responsibility for our actions and have learned how to safely handle firearms. Any case you have ever heard of about a gun "going off" by itself or by accident was the result of negligence on somebody's part. The recognition of our responsibility and familiarity with firearms makes us among the safest firearms owners in America.

7. Permit holders do their best to keep our concealed weapons exactly that: concealed. However, there are times when an observant citizen may spot our firearm or the print of our firearm under our clothes. We are very cognizant that concerns about terrorism and crime are in the forefront of the minds of most citizens. We also realize that our society does much to mistakenly condition our fellow citizens to have irrational fears about firearms. We would encourage citizens who do happen to spot someone carrying a firearm to use good judgment and clear thinking if they feel to need to take action. Please understand that it is very uncommon for a criminal to use a holster. However, if you feel the need to report having spotted a firearm we would ask that you please be specific and detailed in your call to the police or in your report to a store manager or private security. Please don't generalize or sensationalize what you observed. Comments like "there's a guy running around in the store with a gun" or even simply "I saw a man with a gun in the store" could possibly cause a misunderstanding as to the true nature of the incident.

8. The fact that we carry a firearm to any given place does not mean that we believe that place to be inherently unsafe. If we believe a place to be unsafe, most of us will avoid that place all-together if humanly possible. However, we recognize that trouble can occur at any place, at any time. Criminals do not observe "gun free zones". If trouble does come, we do not want the only armed persons to be perpetrators. Therefore, we don't usually make a determination about whether or not to carry at any given time based on "how safe" we think a location is.

9. Concealed weapon permit holders are an asset to the public in times of trouble. The fact that most permit holders have the good judgment to stay out of situations better handled by a 911 call or by simply being a careful and vigilant witness does not mean that we would fail to act in situations where the use of deadly force is appropriate to save lives. A review of high profile public shooting incidents shows that when killers are confronted by armed resistance they tend to either break off the attack and flee, or choose to end their own life (reference the Colorado Springs church, December, 2007). Lives are saved when a violent criminal encounters resistance. Lives are lost when the criminal can do as he pleases.

10. The fact that criminals know some of the population may be armed at all times, deters violence against all citizens. Permit holders don't believe that every person should be armed. We recognize that some people may not be inclined to carry a firearm for personal reasons. However we do encourage you to respect our right to arm ourselves. Even if you choose not to carry a firearm yourself please oppose measures that limit the ability of law abiding citizens to be armed. As noted before: criminals do not observe "gun free zones". Help us by not supporting laws that require citizens to be unarmed victims.

11. Those with concealed carry permits are quite likely the most conspicuously law-abiding people you will encounter. In the majority of states with a permitting system, the permit-holder has voluntarily submitted him/her self to a background check involving local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. Most often, fingerprints have also been taken and submitted to the state or federal agencies for verification. Rest assured that we are not criminals carrying under the shield of the law. Multiple levels of government have concurred that we have and continue to, follow the law. In addition, we have spent a great deal of money on training, equipment, and the permitting process. We are not eager to jeopardize any of that through misconduct. We are well aware that if we misbehave, we can lose every last penny of that investment, as well as our very freedom.

- -

Several of which fit both CC and OC.
 

BB62

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Izod wrote:
I do believe that someone who chooses to wear a name tag that says 'instructor' SHOULD have a solid handle on the subject they teach...
The NRA doesn't support instructors telling students "OC is stupid, unsafe, etc. etc." It's simply not part of the curriculum - so when an instructor spouts off about how "bad" OC is, his instructors credentials mean nothing.

So, the "subject that they teach" is what the book covers, and only that - anything outside of that, as I've said repeatedly before, is not covered by their credentials.

Izod wrote:

...Not knowing the law regarding open carry and concealed carry is inexcusable.
Unless an instructor is an attorney or a police officer, they are not allowed to cover the law under the auspices of their NRA certification.

Bottom line, the fact that they happen to be NRA instructors is NOT what makes them clueless, biased, whatever - it's simply that they are what they are. The NRA doesn't "make" them that way, nor does itsanction their "off-curriculum" musings.
 

BB62

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Pat-inCO wrote:
BB62 wrote:
btw - the NRA does not have a concealed carry course,
It DOES have two different "Personal Protection" courses that heavily discus concealed carry, and, more importantly, the laws that pertain to concealed carry...
First, when lawsare taught in any course,under the auspices of ones NRA certification, they must be covered by an attorney or police officer. Secondly, when one goes beyond the curriculum of the course, and starts stating opinion, he or she is not sanctioned by the NRA. One's credentials are for teaching the content of the course, nothing more.

When I made the statement that "The NRA does not have a concealed carry course" my point, apparently made less than clearly, was that people think "concealed carry course" means EVERYTHING about concealed carry: laws, opinions, etc. EVERYTHING about concealed carry issimply NOT part of the general curriculum. The courses are meant to teach skills (and laws, where applicable) ONLY.

Opinions are the instructor's alone, and since any instructor is subject to the same differing opinions as exist among gun owners, should not be considered to be NRA "gospel".

So... 1) coverage of laws under the NRA banneris limited to a specific subset of instructors, and 2) when an NRA certified instructor renders an opinion on OC, CC, the best gun, blondes, brunettes, or redheads, HE IS NOT SPEAKING FOR THE NRA, nor is his opinion part of the structured course.

Why are these such difficult concepts for people to get their arms around???

Thebig, bad NRA didn't turnthe instructors who have been referred to into OC haters, any more than NASCAR turns meninto wife-beater wearing, bear swilling, pickup driving folk.

sheesh.
 
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