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Thread: Have you thought things out?

  1. #1
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Most of us who CC or OC spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about how we will act/react to an encounter with police, a business asking us to leave, etc. But how many have really thought about how they would react if:



    You're sitting in McDonalds (or your favorite fast food) as a customer when a bad guy (BG) produces a gun at the register and demands the cash?

    A - Draw, aim, and yell "drop the gun"

    B - Draw, aim, and fire

    C - Draw discretely and sit tight unless he starts shooting of otherwise becomes a threat to you.

    D - None of the above



    You're walking down the street and see two kids (or grown ups) in a fight, no visible weapons?

    A - Call 911

    B - Attempt to break it up

    C - Ignore it

    D - Other



    You pull into a gas station and someone at another pump starts obviously freaking out because they see your open carry pistol?

    A - Approach them to explain it's legal

    B - Enter the building and talk with the staff about what you observed

    C - Call the police and explain that they may be getting a call of a man with a gun and that it's you

    D - Leave without pumping your gas

    E - None of the above



    Walking down the street and some rabid anti-gun fanatic starts following you and harassing you verbally as you try to go about your business?

    A - Try to explain to them that open carry is legal

    B - Step into a business and hope that they won't follow you

    C - Let them follow you and hope that they don't escalate because you're ignoring them

    D - Call 911 to report a person harassing you and that you're concerned for your safety



    You see police lights and you're being pulled over. What are you going to do, say?

    Your walking through _______ and see one or morepolice approaching you with their eyes intently locked on you?

    You're walking along and suddenly the police are yelling FREEZE?

    My wife and I have discussed all of these issues, and others. Have you? If you run scenarios through your head before they happen, you can analyze the possibilities and prepare appropriate actions. If you don't you're going to be thinking on the fly in a stressful situation.

    Also, do you carry an audio/video recording device? Audio only? How are you going to inform someone (the rabid anti-gun person above for examle) that you are recording audio?
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
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    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  2. #2
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    1. A - And cap him if he starts to turn the gun my way.
    2. C - If it looks like 'mutual combatants' - hey, not my business if they want to beat on each other. If it looks more like aggressor/victim, maybe A, then B.
    3. E - Ignore them unless they get in my face and then explain it's legal and please leave me alone. If they continue, call 911 on them.
    4. C then D, as above

    Yup - I mentally role-play all the time, so as to not be taken by surprise or off-guard.

    This stuff is Serious Businesstm and needs to be considered as such.

    As for the LEO encounter, if I can get to my recorder without looking threatening, I'll trigger it. Otherwise, it's hands in plain sight and away from my sidearm until they explain what they want me to do. If what they want me to do is lawful, I'll comply without question - they're just doing their jobs.

    If I think I'm getting infringed upon, I may have some polite questions and might balk if the situation seems safe to do so. The last thing I need is to be face-down on the floor with a boot at my neck, a knee in my back, and a gun at my head while they're 'hooking' me up, so if the tension level jacks up to near that point, I'll just cooperate.

    Got my glamor shots and 10-card done today for my CHL. They said it should be sent out in a about 3 weeks. YAY!

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    We-the-People wrote:
    Most of us who CC or OC spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about how we will act/react to an encounter with police, a business asking us to leave, etc.¬* But how many have really thought about how they would react if:

    You're sitting in McDonalds (or your favorite fast food) as a customer when a bad guy (BG) produces a gun at the register and demands the cash?
    D. None of the above. If the BG is standing in front of the register, the cashier is also likely to be in the line of fire, behind the register. Be aware of what is beyond your target. I would try to make a diversion for the BG to move, after inconspicuously drawing, then fire when clear.

    You're walking down the street and see two kids (or grown ups) in a fight, no visible weapons?
    D. Other. Calling 911 would distract from being a good witness, and cops would almost certainly not arrive to break it up before it fizzled. I would try to write down as much detail on my notepad and be ready to drop pen and pad for my gun at a moment's notice if I become their target. If both pull weapons on each other, continue taking notes from behind cover as best as possible. When it's over, call 911. Since I'm kind of a crap magnet, ideally I would have a videocamera to film, but a pad and paper is all I can afford. A voice recorder wouldn't really make sense, at range, and speaking the details might be a tipoff as much as calling 911.

    You pull into a gas station and someone at another pump starts obviously freaking out because they see your open carry pistol?
    A. Approach them to explain it's legal, but with paperwork in both hands. This makes you appear to be less of a threat.¬*

    Walking down the street and some rabid anti-gun fanatic starts following you and harassing you verbally as you try to go about your business?
    LOL

    D. Call 911 to report a person harassing you and that you're concerned for your safety. Voice recorder would have already been running, play it back and demand a arrest for disorderly conduct and give the "it's legal" paperwork to the cop to read and then add to the arrestee's personal effects for perusal in jail.

    You see police lights and you're being pulled over.¬* What are you going to do, say?
    Do: Pull out my wallet, glovebox insurance/registration packet, have them pressed against the steering wheel with my thumbs when they pull up. Say: as little as possible.

    Your walking through _______ and see one or more¬*police approaching you with their eyes intently locked on you?
    Get out in front, say "Hey, what's up? How will my civil rights be violated today?"

    You're walking along and suddenly the police are yelling FREEZE?
    If I don't know where "freeze" is coming from, I would swivel my head around, if I see police looking at me, I would spread my fingers and shout OKAY!

    How are you going to inform someone (the rabid anti-gun person above for examle) that you are recording audio?
    No reasonable expectation of privacy in a public place.

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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    In respons to Autonym - The only answer I have a problem with is the first one, MAYBE.

    MONEY just isn't worth it. MY thought process is that he is a threat but..... I need to determine how much of a threat and then my course of action. In other words, my drawing and engaging is DEFINITELY going to escalate the situation (duh). If I don't escalate, is it likely to be over in a few seconds and only the money is gone?

    Does the guy look/act/sound like he's liable to start popping caps any moment? If not, why escalate.

    ABSOLUTELY, if I can do so discretely, I am going to draw and prep. I carry one in the chamber so the thumb saftety will be silently released (I've practiced hundreds of times doing it silently with one and two hands to avoid ANY click).

    ABSOLUTELY if he starts firing or gets violent I am going to engage.

    My handgun is for SELF DEFENSE, the protection of ME & MINE. Nice if I can help/save someone else but my priority is ME & MINE. Mine does include friends though so if you're my friend you can expect help. It would be nice if the 911 operator relayed to the officers that she "had the suspect on the line and he was cooperanting, calmly awaiting their arrival, and asking for instructions".

    There is not "PAT" answer for any given situation as there are simply too many variables. Training, such as running scenarios through your head, though definitely helps you make a quicker decision "on the battlefield".

    In the gas station scenario I intended to include that when you saw them freaking out they were obviously doing so because of YOU and were on the phone talking frantically. If I was fairly certain that someone was calling 911 on me I would call them myself.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
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    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  5. #5
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    N6ATF wrote:
    No reasonable expectation of privacy in a public place.


    Actually, there are some problems with audio and the law. Two of the members here had a run in in the Portland area and while they were legally carrying had charges and court over recording audio. There has been some headway made and I personally believe that the law says we can but there are a lot of convoluted sections.

    Don't be so sure that audio is legal. I do agree though that "no expectation of privacy" should prevail. Unfortunately, I don't think the reality is that it does....YET
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  6. #6
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    We-the-People wrote:
    Most of us who CC or OC spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about how we will act/react to an encounter with police, a business asking us to leave, etc. But how many have really thought about how they would react if:



    You're sitting in McDonalds (or your favorite fast food) as a customer when a bad guy (BG) produces a gun at the register and demands the cash?

    A - Draw, aim, and yell "drop the gun"

    B - Draw, aim, and fire

    C - Draw discretely and sit tight unless he starts shooting of otherwise becomes a threat to you.

    D - None of the above
    Hide my gun if I'm OCing, remain quiet, try not to make myself a target. Dial 911 if I happen to have my bluetooth on, as it's got a super-sensitive mic and I ought to be able to drop hints/lets dispatch hear the guy to make a recording for evidence later on.



    You're walking down the street and see two kids (or grown ups) in a fight, no visible weapons?

    A - Call 911

    B - Attempt to break it up

    C - Ignore it

    D - Other
    Call 911. Take cover, and again, avoid becoming a target. I don't want either part to realize I'm a witness 'till the situation is under control.

    Or, I've actually had this situation happen in real life. That time, I just walked by them fighting, then called 911 once I was out of earshot.

    Either way, the idea is to minimize my involvement in someone else's problem.


    You pull into a gas station and someone at another pump starts obviously freaking out because they see your open carry pistol?

    A - Approach them to explain it's legal

    B - Enter the building and talk with the staff about what you observed

    C - Call the police and explain that they may be getting a call of a man with a gun and that it's you

    D - Leave without pumping your gas

    E - None of the above
    I've had this happen. I ignored them, pumped my gas, and went on my way. I generally do my best to be non threatening while ignoring people that are freaking unless they approach me. In which case, well, I acknowledge them and verbally ignore them (assuming they are combative... if they are curious, I try to be informative).


    Walking down the street and some rabid anti-gun fanatic starts following you and harassing you verbally as you try to go about your business?

    A - Try to explain to them that open carry is legal

    B - Step into a business and hope that they won't follow you

    C - Let them follow you and hope that they don't escalate because you're ignoring them

    D - Call 911 to report a person harassing you and that you're concerned for your safety
    Ignore them. It seems to work.

    [flash=320,256]http://www.youtube.com/v/HlKNDbYYaIA&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]


    You see police lights and you're being pulled over. What are you going to do, say?
    I let them know I have a CHL and I'm armed. I tell them I have the license first to try to avoid the possible threat misinterpretation. I've once also used, "for you safety and mine, I just want to let you know that I'm armed right now, and I have a license."


    Your walking through _______ and see one or morepolice approaching you with their eyes intently locked on you?
    Make eye contact, wave. Otherwise be friendly and try not to talk yourself into a jail cell for the night. (That usually means giving your basic ID and shutting up.)

    You're walking along and suddenly the police are yelling FREEZE?
    I probably keep walking, but that's the kind of @#$% I am. If they wanna stop me, they are gonna stop me one way or another. I've got almost nothing to gain by being complaint. (Note: there's a difference between being complaint and being combative. I'm not combative.)

    Also, do you carry an audio/video recording device? Audio only? How are you going to inform someone (the rabid anti-gun person above for examle) that you are recording audio?
    My cell does audio/video, but I usually bring a separate audio or video recorder. Video if I'm going to an event or somewhere where I'm concerned there might be police trouble (in WA, we often hold a OCDO meets where someone has been recently harassed by police), video audio if I'm just out day-to-day.

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    We-the-People wrote:
    Don't be so sure that audio is legal. I do agree though that "no expectation of privacy" should prevail. Unfortunately, I don't think the reality is that it does....YET
    That was Phssphtok and I.

    My present advice is to spout it out in another language. The law requires you to give notice; not obtain consent. The courts ruled that the intended recipient of the notice didn't have to understand it for it to be considered valid notice.

    And/or order/make a T-shirt that gives notice. Even my lawyer signed off on that idea.

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    My response,

    My responce to Your scenarios is based on practical real life experience 1st,....now days its also very well tempered with reading everything Massad Ayoob has written and experienced from his side as a LEO, a professional legal witness testifying for other LEO's and for the defense / citizen who shot a BG or BG's.

    The scenario thing is tricky because the basics of a potential eminent felony or eminently potential real time deadly confrontation are time tested, "but" like what You military type warriors, or martial artist types know it all goes out the window or can go side ways real fast.

    Just like Your Cessna when the plane starts to sputter depending on were you are ( how high ect...) you check feul, check fuel shut offs, pull carb heat & mixture, switch mag's etc... etc... what ever is already prescribed , "but" the "but's" and the extraneous stuff that add on , and piles on can be so numerous that it can only be acted upon in the moment .

    I am a firm believer of good prep along with total trust in intuition, there will be Mr Murphy the BG's accomplice hiding in the wings that I need to spot 1st if at all.

    If You read some of my old waked out posts You will see I have been in more than one shooting ( bullets going out & bullets coming in ) and each time the "scenario" thing was not a scenario thing that I could have planned in advance for because of the dynamic constantly changing way they unfolded.


    I like the way professional warriors train, Seals, SRT-SWAT types train , but they all say and I found out the hard way as a wannabee Wyatt Earp that when You "get hit" all the pre planned s*** changes real fast and goes back to basics, basics, basics, attack attack or run run , no middle ground.

    What I am saying was it was a trained instinct base, along with a total trust to move and do what came at that instant that makes me alive and the BG X'ed.


    Scenarios can only go so far or they will bog You down.

    I am not preaching tactics that if for Clint Smith and Norman Swartschopf < is that spelled right?, but the German's and the Jap's in WWII did not have the autonomous and instinctual intuition to move and have there being as one man units like the free American soldier id and do think, thus they had to rely on set unit tactics which is great when the unit is whole but when Your on your own it's You and ?, and what ? a memory of a bunch of well trained scenarios ?

    You and I , we are civilian nobodies, no body is coming to our aid or rescue when that future event happens it's just you more than likely out in public acting alone, even in a crowded shopping mall You more than likely will be all alone the only armed Wolf surrounded by sheep and one other rabid wolf who must be dispatched.

    I need the God of my instantaneous intuition that will show me whether to attack or retreat , to draw or to hold.

    I need to be on the bow of the boat of consciousness were I can see a split second ahead of time the other guy does not see because he is in the stern , so to speak and it works, trust me I have walked away twice from *incoming & out going,lol.

    Is that making sense ?

    Sorry for the long winded'ness, its a stream of consciousness thing
    ( I wish it were a trout stream of concioucness, lol )







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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    grishnav wrote:
    We-the-People wrote:
    Don't be so sure that audio is legal. I do agree though that "no expectation of privacy" should prevail. Unfortunately, I don't think the reality is that it does....YET
    That was Phssphtok and I.

    My present advice is to spout it out in another language. The law requires you to give notice; not obtain consent. The courts ruled that the intended recipient of the notice didn't have to understand it for it to be considered valid notice.

    And/or order/make a T-shirt that gives notice. Even my lawyer signed off on that idea.
    I was thinking about the T shirt thing. A ball cap, or something that you just wore all the time. My recorder will go 17 hours on the highest quality setting so I could just put on the T, turn on the recorder, and step out the door. I'm also carry TWO recorders, JUST IN CASE. That way if I come across a cop that gets pissed about the audio I can hand him the junky one and the good one just keeps on recording. Don't need his consent, just to inform him.

    As for the message being in another language, I suppose if the cop doesn't "press one for English" he can't expect to get the notice in English right? So do the shirt in Spanish. That would be underhanded though.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
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    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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    I use porc411 as my backup recorder. There's no confiscating that.

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    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    Steve,

    You're so right about things going out the door when the *($&$( hit's the fan.

    In the military the saying was "No plan survives the first contact, intact". In other words, we train, train, train, and when we find ourselves in the heat of contact, we react and adapt on the fly as the situation develops, using our training and instincts to keep us from making a fatal error.

    The reason for my original post wasn't so much to get a right or wrong answer but to make people THINK. While it may be our right to strap a firearm on our side or under our clothing with a CHL, we are not being responsible carriers if we haven't asked ourseles "what if".

    In my first civillian carry class, down South in the nation of Taxifornia, we had a woman in the class that said "I couldn't shoot someone, I just want to carry to protect myself." The instructor had a long talk with her and she dropped out. She had not ever considered that her carrying a gun meant that she had to be ready to use it in a violent situation or it would be turned on her.

    So my advice is simply, think about it, plan your actions in certain situation, prepare, and venture forth. My preparation includes an informative handout for the curious and the LEO's that don't know the law well enough, cards with my name and e-mail for those who want more information, my two recorders, and both my ODL and CHL verified on hand and exactly where they are (never changes but I always check).
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  12. #12
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    grishnav wrote:
    I use porc411 as my backup recorder. There's no confiscating that.
    Is Porc411 national now? I thought it was just for the Free Staters in NH.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  13. #13
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    We-the-People wrote:
    grishnav wrote:
    I use porc411 as my backup recorder. There's no confiscating that.
    Is Porc411 national now? I thought it was just for the Free Staters in NH.
    It is, but if you donate and don't abuse it, they don't complain too much. :P

    Also, I'm working on a version for the northwest OC community.

  14. #14
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    I don't think I could use it with my phone as when you close it it hangs up. Perhaps with a blue tooth headset it would work.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  15. #15
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    You're sitting in McDonalds (or your favorite fast food) as a customer when a bad guy (BG) produces a gun at the register and demands the cash?

    It all boils down to three things: Intent, Ability, Opportunity. This should have been covered in your CCW class.



    You're walking down the street and see two kids (or grown ups) in a fight, no visible weapons?

    A - Call 911. I don't insuate myself into other people's fights, but I will call 911 to have the cops come break it up.



    You pull into a gas station and someone at another pump starts obviously freaking out because they see your open carry pistol?

    E - None of the above. Let them freak out. It's not my problem, and I can't control how other people will react. I'd pump my gas, pay for it, and then lleave like nothing happened.



    Walking down the street and some rabid anti-gun fanatic starts following you and harassing you verbally as you try to go about your business?

    D - Call 911 to report a person harassing you and that you're concerned for your safety. Again, I wouldn't do anything to escalate the situation. Call the cops and let them take the nut job away for me.


    You see police lights and you're being pulled over. What are you going to do, say?

    I'm going to get out my license and CCW permit. I'll hand them to the officer when he asks for ID. Then go from there.

    Your walking through _______ and see one or morepolice approaching you with their eyes intently locked on you?

    I guess I'd stop in my tracks and lets the cops come to me and tell me what they're concerned about. Then go from there.

    You're walking along and suddenly the police are yelling FREEZE?

    I suppose I'd freeze.


    Also, do you carry an audio/video recording device? Audio only? How are you going to inform someone (the rabid anti-gun person above for examle) that you are recording audio?

    No I don't. I don't have anythng to hide, and if it appears that a LEO is geting in my face about my open carry then I'd simply clam up at that point and go into very polite non-cooperation mode.




  16. #16
    Regular Member We-the-People's Avatar
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    I've has a cop (military) yell FREEZE and it was an ugly scene that ended several days later with an appology from four officersandone of them getting a permanent entry into his personnel file.

    Myself and two other Marines were standing outside our barracks waiting on a taxi. For some reason this base (way back in the 80's) had 8 foot chain link and barbed wire fences around all barracks so we had to stand on the sidewalk.

    A dark four door car pulls to a screeching stop about 25 feet from us and the driver gets out and yells "freeze". This guy has long hair, civillian attire, and is driving an unmarked car.

    I go "who the hell are you?" and the next thing I see is the driver producing a .38 revolver, yelling "I said freeze" and drawing aim. I hear sirens approaching as he yells "against the fence" so I yell "I hope you're cops" as my friends and I turn and hit the fence while the other three occupantsof the vehicle get out and one of them identified themselves as "POLICE". Marked cars arrived almost immediately.

    Turns out they were criminal investigators. They'd been responding to a call "someone threw a firecraker at my car, or maybe it was a gunshot" several blocks away near an enlisted club that was being closed early. When another man from our unit came walking by from somewhere else, returning to his barracks, they threw him against the fence as well.

    After searching all of us for weapons, the officer that drew started grilling us about where we'd come from, where we were going, etc. After about half an hour, two of the initial four officers appologized, explained about the call they'd gotten and that it was the drivers wife who had called it in.

    I was furious but didn't let it show and filed formal complaints the following day against the advice of my unit to "just let it go". Hence the appologies and the one officer who shouldn't have been there drawing a weapon in plain clothes and unmarked car without identifying.

    It's a good thing that the officer had stopped 25 feet away, was on the other side of his vehicle, and there was a fence behind us preventing us taking cover. Why is that? We were Marines, being accosted by an unknown gunman. When I talked with the other guys later they ALL said that they'd had the same thoughts as I.

    1) "Disarm the attacker" but the distance was too great.

    2) "Take cover" but didn't move because we had none to take.

    3) Hang tight and take down the thugs as they approached.

    The, FINALLY, identification they were cops and the arrival of marked units at about the same time, kept this from becoming a very ugly situation as we were all in excellent shape, freshly trained in unarmed against armed hand to hand, and being Marines, confident in our abilities.

    Someone would have been shot without the "police" identification and the arrival of marked units. Probably some from each side.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

  17. #17
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    Post imported post

    As for the message being in another language, I suppose if the cop doesn't "press one for English" he can't expect to get the notice in English right? So do the shirt in Spanish. That would be underhanded though.


    No more underhanded than some of the stuff THEY pull.

    As for me..I prefer Latin!

    "Vos es res tabellae"
    "What's that mean?"
    "It means I am in full compliance with the law." (a true statement )

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