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Thread: I'm working up the nerves.. but how do you OC'ers go from car -> store

  1. #1
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    This is the main gray area i would see giving me problems, handling the firearm putting it in my holster. So what are your steps from parking to going into the store and back out into the car. We'll say the firearm is kept in the trunk.

    I'm originally from Michigan, have been an official resident of WI for about 3 months...but am used to conceal carry..

    I would imagine it would go something like this

    Have holster on after parking car
    grab ammo/magazines
    go open trunk
    insert magazine into pistol
    chamber pistol (duh)
    engage safety (if equipped)
    holster
    proceed to store

    do your thing

    still just a little nervous about getting problems with the handling part. I did right the sheriff and tried to be as polite as possible and blow a little sunshine to see the response.. but im still unsure.

    *****************************

    Good day Mr. Pierce

    I understand your confusion with different state having different laws. At the same time, we find that having some "home rule" has been very appropriate. If I were the chief in Milwaukee, Madison, Minneapolis or Detroit, or in contrast the far north woods or the UP, I would have a very different take on armed citizens than I do in Neenah.

    First off, to start to answer your question, we not only have to look at the criminal statutes in Wisconsin (the criminal code), but also the DNR code. The DNR code requires that to carry a firearm in a vehicle it must
    be unloaded and cased. You are right about the "Disorderly Conduct"
    statutes being used for situations where someone goes armed openly. Part of the reason is the diverse demographics in Wisconsin. For example, it is common and expected that during the early fall many people will be carrying guns in the northern part of the state because of the hunting season. It is extremely unusual for someone to walk downtown Neenah with a firearm exposed. I guarantee it would get a law enforcement response.

    The Fox River Valley is one of the top safest areas in the nation. I fact in my 30 years in law enforcement in the valley I cannot point to one situation where use or threat of an openly carried firearm would have been an appropriate response to a criminal act. Because of that, someone in public carrying a firearm would be extremely disturbing to most residents.
    In fact, with only an occasional exception and under specific circumstances, our officers do not go armed off duty, even though law allows for it. (I say this to emphasize the safeness of our community. Our officers are some of the most tactical and survival trained in the state.) Personally I am a firearms instructor, a former SWAT officer a defensive tactics instructor and teach personal safety and I do not keep any firearms
    in my home. I even keep my hunting rifle at work. I'm obviously not
    anti-firearm but I believe in statistics and the chances of someone being injured or killed in my house because of an accessible firearm is hundreds of times (or more) greater than the chance I would need to use or threaten to use deadly force to protect myself or my family.

    To answer your question directly, until Wisconsin offers a method of concealed carry, I strongly recommend against carrying an open firearm.
    Whether or not we would take enforcement action and what action that is would depend on the situation. For example, if someone walked into a bank with a mask on and a shotgun at port arms, I think we would take enforcement action. If a farmer is out in his field with a shotgun tied to his ATV, obviously we would not. Those being two extremes, you can see there could be a lot of grey area in between.

    The problem with saying "allowing 'law abiding' citizens to carry" is to define "law abiding." If we could identify people that you and I would consider law abiding citizens I might have a very different view. But I have to assure that everyone in our community is treated equally. Consider that we occasionally have gang members in the area who have never been convicted of a crime. Are they "law abiding citizens?" I would not want then walking into stores downtown with a firearm and I don't think you would either. In Wisconsin that has been the biggest hold-up on a concealed carry law, defining who is appropriate to allow a concealed carry, i.e. who is "law abiding."

    I'm guessing I'm not telling you what you want to hear, but I am describing the reality of the environment in the valley. I hope this gives you some insight. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any other questions.

    Ray Appel

    Raymond W. Appel
    Chief of Police
    Neenah Police Department
    2111 Marathon Avenue
    Neenah, WI 54956-4771
    Ph: (920) 886-6013
    Fax: (920) 886-6054
    Admin Fax 886-6055

    TOGETHER, WE SUCCEED!


    *******************************


    My original letter


    Dear Mr. Appel

    My name is Andrew Pierce, I am currently a Michigan resident working as a contractor for Oshkosh corporation and am currently staying here in Neenah, Wisconsin.

    I carry a permit to carry a concealed firearm in the state of Michigan, and I am aware that conceal carry is currently not legal in the state of Wisconsin. Because I am a firm believer of the constitution and exercising the rights given to us all, In Michigan I would carry a firearm concealed on my person allowing myself to be prepared to not allow myself to become a victim in any given situation. As I was reviewing gun laws, it appears now the only way to exercise my right and to remain prepared as I would in my home state, is to open carry my firearm in plain view.

    More research and reading left me somewhat puzzled and concerned with some law enforcement acts regarding open carry, particularly cases where a citizen was arrested for “disorderly conduct” because an uninformed individual not aware of the laws called 911 to report the said citizen to have a gun. Now, it is my understanding that the statute does not punish a person for conduct which might offend some hypercritical individual. Which in this case would be exactly what happened.

    In my opinion, these actions would have been a mistake, despite there still being a trial for this man because of the disorderly conduct charge because someone was scared. It saddens me to think what this man will have to go through all for no reason.

    My main question is how would (or how have) the Neenah police department
    respond(ed) to this type of call? Back home in Michigan I was relieved to find any law enforcement I encountered or have talked with are at ease with law abiding citizens carrying to defend themselves and their families, I would like to think the same thing would apply here for if the opportunity were to arise where my contract job were to become a permanent position, Wisconsin may very well become my new home.

    I can be reached at this email, ************ or by phone ************, I look forward to hearing from you.

    Thank you for taking the time to read my letter, my gratitude goes out to you and the rest of the department for going out on the job every day to help make things safer for the rest of us. Stay safe

    Andrew Pierce



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    Welcome to the land of cow-pies and beer farts! and OCDO

    The response you got is typical of many departments, they try and discourage you and sometimes have little threats littered throughout their replies just as this guy did.

    fact is, you can legallyopen-carry almost anywhere you like with a few exceptions, Such as you are prohibited from entering a business that sells alcohol for onsite consumption, within 1,000' of any K-12 school property (that the school resides on)
    and government buildings are also off-limits. (read the forum for more info please)

    Vehicle carry it must be unloaded and in a case specifically made to hold a firearm with no parts of the firearm exposed. It must be fully closed, latched, tied, velcro, Etc Etc Etc. Some will even tell you it must be outside of the passenger compartment. (debatable)

    I am sure many more will fill you in and go into more detail than I have, So get ready for some very intelligent discussion, and even some discussion from educated people that aren't too intelligent.

    Carry On!



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  4. #4
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    im pretty familiar with the laws as i knew my carry habits would have to change before i moved (lived here about a year, but my position was a contractor and went permanent in april)

    The letter was more for sharing

    I was curious as to how other people who have been carrying make their transition from vehicle to doing their daily tasks

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    I leave the house with the holster on. Mine ISN'T a paddle holster, so it is ALWAYS on the belt.

    Anyway, holster is already on.

    Arrive at store and park car.

    Go to trunk and completely remove Glock case from trunk. Open case, grab Glock and place into holster. Grab magazine from Glock case and insert into firearm. Return case to trunk and go shopping.

    I am now carrying in condition three(3) loaded magazine, empty chamber.



    Returning to car.

    Remove Glock case from trunk. Open case and hold in one hand. Remove Glock from holster. Bring Glock over case and depress magazine release lever. Magazine falls into case. Please Glock in case. Close case, place case in trunk. Go home.

    Condition three(3) is the easiest when carrying a pistol, no need to eject/capture the chambered round.

    When I carry the revolver, the exercise is similar except all the rounds or on the belt. So I holster the revolver, place the case in the trunk, un-holster and load the revolver. Reverse for returning to vehicle.

    I know the Doug was/is working on a video showing all these fine points.



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    I leave my case in the car, behind the driver's seat (I can't reach it from where I'm sitting, easing the conspiracies about it needing to be out of reach). When I leave the house, the gun is on my hip.

    Each time I get in and out of the car, I have a 10-step program:

    1) Unlock car from driver door
    2) Leaving driver door open, move to and open passenger side rear door
    3) Move Glock case from under seat to on top of back seat
    4) Remove gun from holster, being sure that the barrel is always facing down
    5) Drop the mag and clear the chamber
    6) Put the loose round back into the mag
    7) With the slide dropped back, put my G22 into the case
    8) Put sealed case behind and below driver's seat
    9) Place the mag in slot of driver door
    10) Drive away (if voice recorder was on, I turn it off as I drive)

    When I get to my destination:

    1) As I get out of the car, I unlock all doors and grap my mag
    2) Voice recorder on
    3) While driver door still open, go to back and put gun case on back seat
    4) Insert mag
    5) Rack Slide
    6) Holster
    7) Case back below seat
    8) Cover case with blanket
    9) Close and lock car doors
    10) Go about my business


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    I wonder if it would be ok to keep an empty holster on your side at all times and ammo too.

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    podsense wrote:
    I wonder if it would be ok to keep an empty holster on your side at all times and ammo too.
    About 99% of the time I have a holster on one side, and an extra mag. on the other. No law about that at all. So when I get out of my car, I just have to load, and drop the gun in its holster. I get some odd looks with the unfilled holster, like at the Post Office, or Greenfield City Hall, but thats life...

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    podsense wrote:
    I wonder if it would be ok to keep an empty holster on your side at all times and ammo too.
    Ive always done things that way, it makes the whole holstering/unholstering process go ALOT smoother...
    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    gollbladder13 wrote:
    I leave my case in the car, behind the driver's seat (I can't reach it from where I'm sitting, easing the conspiracies about it needing to be out of reach). When I leave the house, the gun is on my hip.

    Each time I get in and out of the car, I have a 10-step program:

    1) Unlock car from driver door
    2) Leaving driver door open, move to and open passenger side rear door
    3) Move Glock case from under seat to on top of back seat
    4) Remove gun from holster, being sure that the barrel is always facing down
    5) Drop the mag and clear the chamber
    6) Put the loose round back into the mag
    7) With the slide dropped back, put my G22 into the case
    8) Put sealed case behind and below driver's seat
    9) Place the mag in slot of driver door
    10) Drive away (if voice recorder was on, I turn it off as I drive)

    When I get to my destination:

    1) As I get out of the car, I unlock all doors and grap my mag
    2) Voice recorder on
    3) While driver door still open, go to back and put gun case on back seat
    4) Insert mag
    5) Rack Slide
    6) Holster
    7) Case back below seat
    8) Cover case with blanket
    9) Close and lock car doors
    10) Go about my business
    Gollbladder, your chain of events puts you in a position where you are actually breaking current laws. (no matter how stupid they are, you could still be nicked for it)

    "In Wisconsin, it is illegal to place a firearm into a vehicle before it is completely cased and unloaded, and it is also illegal to remove a firearm from its case while the firearm/case is still inside of or on the vehicle"

    Cite: http://www.du-ha.com/legal.htm

  12. #12
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    thats the kind of thing i wanted to see....



    so bring the case out, set it on the parking lot ground, then load up? lol

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    Nutczak wrote:
    Gollbladder, your chain of events puts you in a position where you are actually breaking current laws. (no matter how stupid they are, you could still be nicked for it)

    "In Wisconsin, it is illegal to place a firearm into a vehicle before it is completely cased and unloaded, and it is also illegal to remove a firearm from its case while the firearm/case is still inside of or on the vehicle"

    Cite: http://www.du-ha.com/legal.htm
    I'm too lazy to go back to edit my earlier post, and the long, drawn out steps was meant to be sarcastic to emphasize the rediculousness of the laws.

    That being said, thanks for the headsup...

    ETA:

    Aren't we breaking the law anyways every time we enter the car? Gotta take the gun out of the holster somehow. Brandishing, right? Have to break the law to follow the law?

    Legal disclaimer: I have never admitted to, or advocated, brandishing, driving with a loaded gun, or any other illegal activity.

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    apierce918 wrote:
    thats the kind of thing i wanted to see....

    so bring the case out, set it on the parking lot ground, then load up? lol
    Ridiculous as it sounds, that is what we are expected to do.Some of this comes from the DNR and their battle against poachers. People have bee cited for leaning a rifle against the tailgate of a pick-up truck while taking a break from hunting. it is a stupid little ongoing cat & mouse game in this state.

    I drive a truck, I can be cited for placing an open case on the tailgate and placing the gun in it, I still need to kneel down and do the procedure on the ground, or attempt a weird balancing act to get it full y cases and latched before I may set the firearm on, in or leaned against my truck if I am in the woods or on the street or parking lot.

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    gollbladder13 wrote:
    Aren't we breaking the law anyways every time we enter the car? Gotta take the gun out of the holster somehow. Brandishing, right? Have to break the law to follow the law?
    I am not familiar with a Wisconsin Statute, annotation, case law or ordinance that even mentions 'brandishing' let alone prohibits it. Citation please because it needs be posted.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    gollbladder13 wrote:
    Aren't we breaking the law anyways every time we enter the car? Gotta take the gun out of the holster somehow. Brandishing, right? Have to break the law to follow the law?
    I am not familiar with a Wisconsin Statute, annotation, case law or ordinance that even mentions 'brandishing' let alone prohibits it. Citation please because it needs be posted.
    Well I'll be damned. I looked and looked and it was nowhere to be found!

    Is that to say one could draw their weapon in public, and as long as it does not point towards anybody, it is not illegal? (Not looking for legal advice... just posting a hypothetical to emphasize the lack of clarity in WI gun laws).

  17. #17
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    We are also breaking the law as we carry our firearms concealed in our range bags to/from the house and range... you can't get around it, plan and simply... which is why we need some type of legislation to clear this up.

    Personally, I have my holster on my hip. I exit the drivers seat, go to the rear gate of my vehicle, open the truck/lift gate, grab my gun case, set it on the edge of the truck/lift gate, grab the magazine and firearm, load magazine, rack slide to chamber a round (pointed toward ground), insert firearm into holster.

    When I return to the vehicle I remove firearm from holster (again pointed toward ground), release magazine, put magazine in my pocket, point firearm into truck, pull back slide to eject chambered round into truck area, grab case out of trunk, put gun in case, zip closed, close trunk.

    It's almost like you need to setup a little table outside of your car so you can load/unload.

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    Nutczak wrote:

    I drive a truck, I can be cited for placing a....firearm ........leaned against my truck if I am in the woods or on the street or parking lot.
    167.31(4)(d)does not prohibit a person from leaning an unloaded firearm against a vehicle.

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    Hillmann wrote:
    Nutczak wrote:

    I drive a truck, I can be cited for placing a....firearm ........leaned against my truck if I am in the woods or on the street or parking lot.
    167.31(4)(d)does not prohibit a person from leaning an unloaded firearm against a vehicle.
    Tell that to the thousands of hunters over the yearsthat have been cited by the DNR for having a rifle or shotgun leaning against a car, truck or camper. A reason to contact your state legislators and ask them to support Senator Decker's "uncased firearm in vehicle" law change.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Pointman wrote:
    First, you have to have a big shiny gun, like a stainless-steel or nickle plated Desert Eagle. A .45 is the smallest gun you should carry.

    I Quietly step out of the car, close the door, open the back door, and grab the gun. Then I say, "Bwahh-ha-ha-ha!" and jack the clip in while holding the gun above the car roof so everyone can see it and it's in no way "concealed." Then I pull the slide all the way back so when I let go it makes the loudest sound possible. Can't be concealed if everyone knows it's there!

    I then look at the closest person, who's usually ghost-white and saucer eyed and say, "No safety on this baby" as I slide it into my Blackhawk holster, which makes a loud click when the gun seats. Pat it twice and walk in.



    If the fuzz show up, loudly call out, "Yo homie! What up?" and slide toward them gangsta-like. Make sure to shake their hand or give them a shoulder-chuck--they like friendly people.
    Ha hahahahahaha ha ha hA HA HA HA , LOL...HE HE HE.....That was sooooooo freeking funny................... I just leave my leather ,belt spare mag holder on all the time, and the Paddle Serpa on most of the time, then it's just an easy routine when I decide to OC somewhere. which is daily now.:celebrate
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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