apierce918
Regular Member
imported post
This is the main gray area i would see giving me problems, handling the firearm putting it in my holster. So what are your steps from parking to going into the store and back out into the car. We'll say the firearm is kept in the trunk.
I'm originally from Michigan, have been an official resident of WI for about 3 months...but am used to conceal carry..
I would imagine it would go something like this
Have holster on after parking car
grab ammo/magazines
go open trunk
insert magazine into pistol
chamber pistol (duh)
engage safety (if equipped)
holster
proceed to store
do your thing
still just a little nervous about getting problems with the handling part. I did right the sheriff and tried to be as polite as possible and blow a little sunshine to see the response.. but im still unsure.
*****************************
Good day Mr. Pierce
I understand your confusion with different state having different laws. At the same time, we find that having some "home rule" has been very appropriate. If I were the chief in Milwaukee, Madison, Minneapolis or Detroit, or in contrast the far north woods or the UP, I would have a very different take on armed citizens than I do in Neenah.
First off, to start to answer your question, we not only have to look at the criminal statutes in Wisconsin (the criminal code), but also the DNR code. The DNR code requires that to carry a firearm in a vehicle it must
be unloaded and cased. You are right about the "Disorderly Conduct"
statutes being used for situations where someone goes armed openly. Part of the reason is the diverse demographics in Wisconsin. For example, it is common and expected that during the early fall many people will be carrying guns in the northern part of the state because of the hunting season. It is extremely unusual for someone to walk downtown Neenah with a firearm exposed. I guarantee it would get a law enforcement response.
The Fox River Valley is one of the top safest areas in the nation. I fact in my 30 years in law enforcement in the valley I cannot point to one situation where use or threat of an openly carried firearm would have been an appropriate response to a criminal act. Because of that, someone in public carrying a firearm would be extremely disturbing to most residents.
In fact, with only an occasional exception and under specific circumstances, our officers do not go armed off duty, even though law allows for it. (I say this to emphasize the safeness of our community. Our officers are some of the most tactical and survival trained in the state.) Personally I am a firearms instructor, a former SWAT officer a defensive tactics instructor and teach personal safety and I do not keep any firearms
in my home. I even keep my hunting rifle at work. I'm obviously not
anti-firearm but I believe in statistics and the chances of someone being injured or killed in my house because of an accessible firearm is hundreds of times (or more) greater than the chance I would need to use or threaten to use deadly force to protect myself or my family.
To answer your question directly, until Wisconsin offers a method of concealed carry, I strongly recommend against carrying an open firearm.
Whether or not we would take enforcement action and what action that is would depend on the situation. For example, if someone walked into a bank with a mask on and a shotgun at port arms, I think we would take enforcement action. If a farmer is out in his field with a shotgun tied to his ATV, obviously we would not. Those being two extremes, you can see there could be a lot of grey area in between.
The problem with saying "allowing 'law abiding' citizens to carry" is to define "law abiding." If we could identify people that you and I would consider law abiding citizens I might have a very different view. But I have to assure that everyone in our community is treated equally. Consider that we occasionally have gang members in the area who have never been convicted of a crime. Are they "law abiding citizens?" I would not want then walking into stores downtown with a firearm and I don't think you would either. In Wisconsin that has been the biggest hold-up on a concealed carry law, defining who is appropriate to allow a concealed carry, i.e. who is "law abiding."
I'm guessing I'm not telling you what you want to hear, but I am describing the reality of the environment in the valley. I hope this gives you some insight. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any other questions.
Ray Appel
Raymond W. Appel
Chief of Police
Neenah Police Department
2111 Marathon Avenue
Neenah, WI 54956-4771
Ph: (920) 886-6013
Fax: (920) 886-6054
Admin Fax 886-6055
TOGETHER, WE SUCCEED!
*******************************
My original letter
Dear Mr. Appel
My name is Andrew Pierce, I am currently a Michigan resident working as a contractor for Oshkosh corporation and am currently staying here in Neenah, Wisconsin.
I carry a permit to carry a concealed firearm in the state of Michigan, and I am aware that conceal carry is currently not legal in the state of Wisconsin. Because I am a firm believer of the constitution and exercising the rights given to us all, In Michigan I would carry a firearm concealed on my person allowing myself to be prepared to not allow myself to become a victim in any given situation. As I was reviewing gun laws, it appears now the only way to exercise my right and to remain prepared as I would in my home state, is to open carry my firearm in plain view.
More research and reading left me somewhat puzzled and concerned with some law enforcement acts regarding open carry, particularly cases where a citizen was arrested for “disorderly conduct” because an uninformed individual not aware of the laws called 911 to report the said citizen to have a gun. Now, it is my understanding that the statute does not punish a person for conduct which might offend some hypercritical individual. Which in this case would be exactly what happened.
In my opinion, these actions would have been a mistake, despite there still being a trial for this man because of the disorderly conduct charge because someone was scared. It saddens me to think what this man will have to go through all for no reason.
My main question is how would (or how have) the Neenah police department
respond(ed) to this type of call? Back home in Michigan I was relieved to find any law enforcement I encountered or have talked with are at ease with law abiding citizens carrying to defend themselves and their families, I would like to think the same thing would apply here for if the opportunity were to arise where my contract job were to become a permanent position, Wisconsin may very well become my new home.
I can be reached at this email, ************ or by phone ************, I look forward to hearing from you.
Thank you for taking the time to read my letter, my gratitude goes out to you and the rest of the department for going out on the job every day to help make things safer for the rest of us. Stay safe
Andrew Pierce
This is the main gray area i would see giving me problems, handling the firearm putting it in my holster. So what are your steps from parking to going into the store and back out into the car. We'll say the firearm is kept in the trunk.
I'm originally from Michigan, have been an official resident of WI for about 3 months...but am used to conceal carry..
I would imagine it would go something like this
Have holster on after parking car
grab ammo/magazines
go open trunk
insert magazine into pistol
chamber pistol (duh)
engage safety (if equipped)
holster
proceed to store
do your thing
still just a little nervous about getting problems with the handling part. I did right the sheriff and tried to be as polite as possible and blow a little sunshine to see the response.. but im still unsure.
*****************************
Good day Mr. Pierce
I understand your confusion with different state having different laws. At the same time, we find that having some "home rule" has been very appropriate. If I were the chief in Milwaukee, Madison, Minneapolis or Detroit, or in contrast the far north woods or the UP, I would have a very different take on armed citizens than I do in Neenah.
First off, to start to answer your question, we not only have to look at the criminal statutes in Wisconsin (the criminal code), but also the DNR code. The DNR code requires that to carry a firearm in a vehicle it must
be unloaded and cased. You are right about the "Disorderly Conduct"
statutes being used for situations where someone goes armed openly. Part of the reason is the diverse demographics in Wisconsin. For example, it is common and expected that during the early fall many people will be carrying guns in the northern part of the state because of the hunting season. It is extremely unusual for someone to walk downtown Neenah with a firearm exposed. I guarantee it would get a law enforcement response.
The Fox River Valley is one of the top safest areas in the nation. I fact in my 30 years in law enforcement in the valley I cannot point to one situation where use or threat of an openly carried firearm would have been an appropriate response to a criminal act. Because of that, someone in public carrying a firearm would be extremely disturbing to most residents.
In fact, with only an occasional exception and under specific circumstances, our officers do not go armed off duty, even though law allows for it. (I say this to emphasize the safeness of our community. Our officers are some of the most tactical and survival trained in the state.) Personally I am a firearms instructor, a former SWAT officer a defensive tactics instructor and teach personal safety and I do not keep any firearms
in my home. I even keep my hunting rifle at work. I'm obviously not
anti-firearm but I believe in statistics and the chances of someone being injured or killed in my house because of an accessible firearm is hundreds of times (or more) greater than the chance I would need to use or threaten to use deadly force to protect myself or my family.
To answer your question directly, until Wisconsin offers a method of concealed carry, I strongly recommend against carrying an open firearm.
Whether or not we would take enforcement action and what action that is would depend on the situation. For example, if someone walked into a bank with a mask on and a shotgun at port arms, I think we would take enforcement action. If a farmer is out in his field with a shotgun tied to his ATV, obviously we would not. Those being two extremes, you can see there could be a lot of grey area in between.
The problem with saying "allowing 'law abiding' citizens to carry" is to define "law abiding." If we could identify people that you and I would consider law abiding citizens I might have a very different view. But I have to assure that everyone in our community is treated equally. Consider that we occasionally have gang members in the area who have never been convicted of a crime. Are they "law abiding citizens?" I would not want then walking into stores downtown with a firearm and I don't think you would either. In Wisconsin that has been the biggest hold-up on a concealed carry law, defining who is appropriate to allow a concealed carry, i.e. who is "law abiding."
I'm guessing I'm not telling you what you want to hear, but I am describing the reality of the environment in the valley. I hope this gives you some insight. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any other questions.
Ray Appel
Raymond W. Appel
Chief of Police
Neenah Police Department
2111 Marathon Avenue
Neenah, WI 54956-4771
Ph: (920) 886-6013
Fax: (920) 886-6054
Admin Fax 886-6055
TOGETHER, WE SUCCEED!
*******************************
My original letter
Dear Mr. Appel
My name is Andrew Pierce, I am currently a Michigan resident working as a contractor for Oshkosh corporation and am currently staying here in Neenah, Wisconsin.
I carry a permit to carry a concealed firearm in the state of Michigan, and I am aware that conceal carry is currently not legal in the state of Wisconsin. Because I am a firm believer of the constitution and exercising the rights given to us all, In Michigan I would carry a firearm concealed on my person allowing myself to be prepared to not allow myself to become a victim in any given situation. As I was reviewing gun laws, it appears now the only way to exercise my right and to remain prepared as I would in my home state, is to open carry my firearm in plain view.
More research and reading left me somewhat puzzled and concerned with some law enforcement acts regarding open carry, particularly cases where a citizen was arrested for “disorderly conduct” because an uninformed individual not aware of the laws called 911 to report the said citizen to have a gun. Now, it is my understanding that the statute does not punish a person for conduct which might offend some hypercritical individual. Which in this case would be exactly what happened.
In my opinion, these actions would have been a mistake, despite there still being a trial for this man because of the disorderly conduct charge because someone was scared. It saddens me to think what this man will have to go through all for no reason.
My main question is how would (or how have) the Neenah police department
respond(ed) to this type of call? Back home in Michigan I was relieved to find any law enforcement I encountered or have talked with are at ease with law abiding citizens carrying to defend themselves and their families, I would like to think the same thing would apply here for if the opportunity were to arise where my contract job were to become a permanent position, Wisconsin may very well become my new home.
I can be reached at this email, ************ or by phone ************, I look forward to hearing from you.
Thank you for taking the time to read my letter, my gratitude goes out to you and the rest of the department for going out on the job every day to help make things safer for the rest of us. Stay safe
Andrew Pierce
.
