Self Defense

piazza63 · Aug 17, 2009

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So. I'm walking down a street, and am approached by a stranger who wants my money. I have my side arm holstered. When is it my legal right to pull it?

I know I can carry without a permit, I know where I can't. But is there a point if I can't use it if need be?

malignity · Aug 18, 2009

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If he has an obvious weapon, and you have reason to believe you are in fear of your life, then you should be good to go. Personally, i'm not giving my money to anyone unless they present a weapon, and I'll gladly tell them that. The moment they start moving to do so, my gun will be drawn. This, I understand, may be a fatal flaw if someone decides to shoot me through their jacket or something, but research shows that if someone has a weapon, and hasn't killed me immediately, then there's a reason for their hesitation, whatever that reason may be. (I forget the term, but if you want to get nit picky, it's in the latest edition of Combat Handguns)

Springfield Smitty · Aug 18, 2009

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May I add to this?

I was told in my CPL class that there is a rule that the perp must be within 21 feet if they are unarmed and if they have a firearm, the rule does not apply. I find this nowhere in the Self-Defense Act and wonder if anyone knows anything more on the subject.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ijcabs45frw0xlehjhgz1f45))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-Act-309-of-2006

DanM · Aug 18, 2009

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piazza63 wrote:

So. I'm walking down a street, and am approached by a stranger who wants my money. I have my side arm holstered. When is it my legal right to pull it?

When you reasonably perceivedeath or great bodily harm is imminent.

I know I can carry without a permit, I know where I can't. But is there a point if I can't use it if need be?

There is never a point at which you can't lawfully use lethal force if you need to use lawful lethal force and you are legally allowed to be wherever it is you happen to be.

Don't quite understand your question.

DanM · Aug 18, 2009

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Springfield Smitty wrote:

I was told in my CPL class that there is a rule . . .

The only rule is thelaw and whether or not ajury would convict you for a violation of it.

Springfield Smitty · Aug 18, 2009

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Right. BTW, I just realized that I am one of those people I don't like. Those who begin a statement with, "My CPL instuctor said..."

I apologize and vow to NEVER do it again. Shame on me. I can't stand that!

Venator · Aug 18, 2009

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piazza63 wrote:

So. I'm walking down a street, and am approached by a stranger who wants my money. I have my side arm holstered. When is it my legal right to pull it?

I know I can carry without a permit, I know where I can't. But is there a point if I can't use it if need be?

This is on the first post of the info thread at the top of the page. I suggest you read the entire first post, lots of good info on OC and related issues.

DEADLY FORCE IN MICHIGAN

The “CASTLE DOCTRINE” package of bills was signed into law on July 20, 2006. The law became effective on October 1, 2006.

This law removes the duty to retreat from a violent attack. Individuals in Michigan, as in most states, have always had the right to stand their ground and defend themselves with no duty to retreat when attacked inside the four walls of their home. However, if attacked outside the four walls of their home, even if on their own property (such as the backyard, detached garage, or a pole building), individuals in Michigan were required to retreat from a violent attack if able to do so safely. As of October 1, 2006, there is no longer a “duty to retreat” from a violent attack as long as the individual is in a place where they have a legal right to be and as long as they are not engaged in illegal activity.

The “Use of Deadly Force” continuum still applies. The escalating degrees of force still apply to all situations and the “Reasonable Man” standard is still used to evaluate an individual’s actions in a given circumstance. This means that the following three valid reasons to use deadly force still apply to all situations:

1)Fear of Death.

2) Fear of Serious Bodily Injury.

[/b]3)Fear of Forcible Sexual Penetration.
[/b]
[/b]In addition to these three reasons for the use of deadly force, the following three conditions must exist in order for the use of deadly force to be justifiable:

1. Imminent - One of the three above listed reasons for the use of deadly force must be about to happen; it cannot be something that will happen tomorrow or in a few weeks.

2. Intent - The attacker has to have demonstrated some sort of intent. This can be verbal or non-verbal. The display of a weapon, verbal threats, or aggressive advances after being told to stay away are all indications of intent.

3. Ability – The attacker has to have the ability to carry through with their intended attack. If someone says they are going to shoot you, but have no firearm, then they do not have the ability to shoot you at that moment.

You still must act reasonably and apply the above principles of the use of deadly force.
Here is what this law does change. This law removes the duty to retreat anywhere that an individual has a legal right to be provided that they are not engaged in illegal activity. If a person acts with reasonable force, up to and including deadly force, then the prosecuting attorney must prove that the person acted unlawfully in order to take the case to trial. This is a change from current procedure where a person who acts in self-defense must prove that they acted lawfully after being charged and possibly taken to court. In addition, if a person cannot be charged and convicted criminally, the new law provides that they cannot be prosecuted civilly. If for some reason a civil case is allowed to proceed, the person who used justifiable self-defense shall be awarded court and attorney’s fees.

This all means that you must still act in a reasonable manner. Your firearm should still be your “tool of last resort” for self-defense. The emotional trauma and aftermath of shooting another human being will be absolutely devastating. It should be avoided if at all possible. This law mitigates the aftermath so that a decision made under the duress of defending oneself against a criminal does not destroy your life criminally or financially.

You are encouraged to read these laws for yourself and evaluate them. For professional legal advice, you should consult a lawyer familiar with firearms law and the use of deadly force in Michigan. The new laws are 2006 PA 309 and 2006 PA 313.
Above modified From: http://www.southsidesportsmanclub.com/stand-your-ground.html

SELF-DEFENSE ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 309 of 2006
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2.
(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual. 2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006.

CoonDog · Aug 18, 2009

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Smitty,

I believe the point of the 21 foot rule demonstrated in class was that if a BG were within 21 feet of you and charging, you wouldn't have time to draw your weapon.

CD

autosurgeon · Aug 18, 2009

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CoonDog wrote:

Smitty,

I believe the point of the 21 foot rule demonstrated in class was that if a BG were within 21 feet of you and charging, you wouldn't have time to draw your weapon.

CD

And that is why you need to train to move if you are being charged... Lateral movement or even backing up to give yourself room to draw. I mean do you guys remember the fellow in GR who shot the guy at the gas station who was attacking him? That guys was deff inside 21 feet when he attacked and the GG still managed to take care of him by using the gas pump as cover and making the guy come around it to him!

DrTodd · Aug 18, 2009

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CoonDog wrote:

Smitty,

I believe the point of the 21 foot rule demonstrated in class was that if a BG were within 21 feet of you and charging, you wouldn't have time to draw your weapon.

CD

This is what is thrown out there by trainers, don't really know where they get this data. I don't doubt the veracity but in issues where there are so many potential variables, I would question the supposed preciseness of "21 feet". Would 22 feet not suffice? How about 30 feet? Has anyone seen/read anything that supports this or is this just the case where someone ran some numbers in their head?

PDinDetroit · Aug 18, 2009

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DrTodd wrote:

CoonDog wrote:

Smitty,

I believe the point of the 21 foot rule demonstrated in class was that if a BG were within 21 feet of you and charging, you wouldn't have time to draw your weapon.

CD

Click to expand...

This is what is thrown out there by trainers, don't really know where they get this data. I don't doubt the veracity but in issues where there are so many potential variables, I would question the supposed preciseness of "21 feet". Would 22 feet not suffice? How about 30 feet? Has anyone seen/read anything that supports this or is this just the case where someone ran some numbers in their head?

I was given this same information from the CPL Class, but was given as a guideline and not a hard/fast rule or law. They explained that it would take a adult male 1-1.25 seconds to cover 21 feet (7 yards) and mostly was about edged-weapons (knife, etc).

The following article is good reading on this: http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

piazza63 · Aug 18, 2009

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Well it's strange to me, To get a CPL, there is classes involved about gun safety, when it is appropriate to use one, but how the law is with "Open Carry", it's so open that people aren't educated on the consequences of using your gun outta your home for self defense. Or when is the right time to pull it out of it's holster to ward off an attacker?? It's a protection piece, not a political statement and being taught how and when to use it needs to be promoted if not enforced so we don't start shooting people for wrong reasons..

DrTodd · Aug 18, 2009

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piazza63 wrote:

Well it's strange to me, To get a CPL, there is classes involved about gun safety, when it is appropriate to use one, but how the law is with "Open Carry", it's so open that people aren't educated on the consequences of using your gun outta your home for self defense. Or when is the right time to pull it out of it's holster to ward off an attacker?? It's a protection piece, not a political statement and being taught how and when to use it needs to be promoted if not enforced so we don't start shooting people for wrong reasons..

(Although I DO strongly support training in the use of firearms, I ask these questions.)
So... should we also have licensing for posting to online forums because someone may incite someone to riot or inadvertently promote otherwise dangerous and illegal behavior? How about licensing for lawnmowers as I hear of many people getting a finger cut off and, at least 1-2 times a summer, a person who dies because a riding lawnmower tipped on them? How about bicycling? I see people riding down the middle of the road or riding on the wrong side of the street... innocent people could get killed!

piazza63 · Aug 18, 2009

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Thank you, that clearly answers my question... I got a second DUI 4 years ago and have been working downtown as a chef at one of the Casino's. Since I don't drive, I was planning on maybe living down there, But the walk to work is a little shady in some parts. Seeing how I can't be elgible for a CPL, I'm looking into now choice but to OC.. I just need some understanding of when I could draw my weapon if being harrassed down there and yeas it does happen. Thanks again

piazza63 · Aug 18, 2009

imported post

Venator wrote:

piazza63 wrote:

So. I'm walking down a street, and am approached by a stranger who wants my money. I have my side arm holstered. When is it my legal right to pull it?

I know I can carry without a permit, I know where I can't. But is there a point if I can't use it if need be?

Click to expand...

This is on the first post of the info thread at the top of the page. I suggest you read the entire first post, lots of good info on OC and related issues.

DEADLY FORCE IN MICHIGAN

The “CASTLE DOCTRINE” package of bills was signed into law on July 20, 2006. The law became effective on October 1, 2006.

This law removes the duty to retreat from a violent attack. Individuals in Michigan, as in most states, have always had the right to stand their ground and defend themselves with no duty to retreat when attacked inside the four walls of their home. However, if attacked outside the four walls of their home, even if on their own property (such as the backyard, detached garage, or a pole building), individuals in Michigan were required to retreat from a violent attack if able to do so safely. As of October 1, 2006, there is no longer a “duty to retreat” from a violent attack as long as the individual is in a place where they have a legal right to be and as long as they are not engaged in illegal activity.

The “Use of Deadly Force” continuum still applies. The escalating degrees of force still apply to all situations and the “Reasonable Man” standard is still used to evaluate an individual’s actions in a given circumstance. This means that the following three valid reasons to use deadly force still apply to all situations:

1)Fear of Death.

2) Fear of Serious Bodily Injury.

3)Fear of Forcible Sexual Penetration.

In addition to these three reasons for the use of deadly force, the following three conditions must exist in order for the use of deadly force to be justifiable:

1. Imminent - One of the three above listed reasons for the use of deadly force must be about to happen; it cannot be something that will happen tomorrow or in a few weeks.

2. Intent - The attacker has to have demonstrated some sort of intent. This can be verbal or non-verbal. The display of a weapon, verbal threats, or aggressive advances after being told to stay away are all indications of intent.

3. Ability – The attacker has to have the ability to carry through with their intended attack. If someone says they are going to shoot you, but have no firearm, then they do not have the ability to shoot you at that moment.

You still must act reasonably and apply the above principles of the use of deadly force.
Here is what this law does change. This law removes the duty to retreat anywhere that an individual has a legal right to be provided that they are not engaged in illegal activity. If a person acts with reasonable force, up to and including deadly force, then the prosecuting attorney must prove that the person acted unlawfully in order to take the case to trial. This is a change from current procedure where a person who acts in self-defense must prove that they acted lawfully after being charged and possibly taken to court. In addition, if a person cannot be charged and convicted criminally, the new law provides that they cannot be prosecuted civilly. If for some reason a civil case is allowed to proceed, the person who used justifiable self-defense shall be awarded court and attorney’s fees.

This all means that you must still act in a reasonable manner. Your firearm should still be your “tool of last resort” for self-defense. The emotional trauma and aftermath of shooting another human being will be absolutely devastating. It should be avoided if at all possible. This law mitigates the aftermath so that a decision made under the duress of defending oneself against a criminal does not destroy your life criminally or financially.

You are encouraged to read these laws for yourself and evaluate them. For professional legal advice, you should consult a lawyer familiar with firearms law and the use of deadly force in Michigan. The new laws are 2006 PA 309 and 2006 PA 313.
Above modified From: http://www.southsidesportsmanclub.com/stand-your-ground.html

SELF-DEFENSE ACT (EXCERPT)
Act 309 of 2006
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2.
(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual. 2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006.

Thank you, that clearly answers my question... I got a second DUI 4 years ago and have been working downtown as a chef at one of the Casino's. Since I don't drive, I was planning on maybe living down there, But the walk to work is a little shady in some parts. Seeing how I can't be elgible for a CPL, I'm looking into now choice but to OC.. I just need some understanding of when I could draw my weapon if being harrassed down there and yeas it does happen. Thanks again

Bronson · Aug 18, 2009

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DrTodd wrote:

This is what is thrown out there by trainers, don't really know where they get this data. I don't doubt the veracity but in issues where there are so many potential variables, I would question the supposed preciseness of "21 feet". Would 22 feet not suffice? How about 30 feet? Has anyone seen/read anything that supports this or is this just the case where someone ran some numbers in their head?

Tueller Drill

In my own experience in trying this with replica guns it isn't difficult, even for a fat out of shape guy like me, to cover the distance and be on a person before he can draw, aim, and fire (assuming the shooter doesn't move). Most of the times we've tried this the knife wielder reaches the shooter at about the same time the shooter clears the holster and gets the gun pointed in the right direction.

This, to me, illustrates one of the reasons I like OC. While I can stillmove around when drawing from CC the draw requires both of my hands. An OC draw can be done one handed which leaves my off hand free to fend off a physical attack which IMO is very likely in that situation.

Moving while drawing adds a whole new dimension to it and greatly increases your chances.

Bronson

springerdave · Aug 18, 2009

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Piazza63, may I ask what you intend to do with an openly carried firearm once you get to work at the casino? It seems that you have a problem with storage once at work, or am I missing something?springerdave.

DanM · Aug 18, 2009

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piazza63 wrote:

. . .being taught how and when to use it needs to be promoted if not enforced so we don't start shooting people for wrong reasons..

Uh uh, you lost me at "enforced". "Promoted", yes. "Enforced", not necessary. Hundreds of thousands of hours of lawful gun ownership, use,and carry demonstrate that the incidence of gun misuse or accident is extremely low. Gun owners have proven themselves to be responsible on the wholewithout the involvement of the nanny-state.

Normal gun-owning and gun-carryingfolk aren't presently walking around "shooting people for wrong reasons" beyond any rate other thanrarely, sono need to act like your hair is on fire about it.

piazza63 · Aug 18, 2009

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Yeah, I know. Probably store it in my bag in my locker, but I think that's illegal too. That's why this site is a great tool. Keeps me educated on the right to open carry. Is there a law banning guns from casino's? I'm sure there is a rule about bringing a firearm to work. I'll have to check with the Casino.

Bronson · Aug 18, 2009

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piazza63 wrote:

I'm sure there is a rule about bringing a firearm to work. I'll have to check with the Casino.

A Casino is notcalled outin the list of Pistol Free Zones (PFZ) for general carry, however, it is illegal to OC without a CPL in any establishment licensed to sell alcohol.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(kord2a45ejzgy045uveibjvq))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-234d

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

Is it an indian tribal casino? I am unclear about the laws governing carrying a gun on to tribal land. I believe they can make their own rules but I'm not certain.

Bronson

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