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Thread: cal guns is starting to tick me off.

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    edit!
    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    Most responses were positive, the others came from fence sitters or liberal bent types.

    Conservatives, and those who love America, stood by in aghast at the buring of US flags during anti-Bush, anti-war,

    anti-America protests.

    We said "How terrible that is...but they have a right to do so."

    Today, Americans are voicing their opinons, and usingthese SAME rightsto protest this government. The main difference is:

    ignorant hippie protestors don't have guns



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    Calguns is a public forum, a BIG tent and the Biggest tent we have in CA. Want to change opinions and influence events in CA? Be on Calguns and stay on calguns. Make reasoned and well written arguments. Do not be baited into personal tiffs. Do not respond to a hostile poster directly. Stay on topic and redirect discussion back toour "reasonable" position.

    Be willing to consider someone elses point of view (or at least sound like you do). Doing the above may not influence the individual getting your goat BUT it WILL influence the thousands reading and sitting on the fence.

    OC activities over the years have made a dent in the general doom and gloom assumptions of CA gunnies (even thought the tide of opinion ebbs and flows at times). The best thing OCers can do is get involved in supporting the CGN booth at gun shows/events. Be a constituency which is active, valuable, and engaged!



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    I've decided it's not worth going to CalGuns.net anymore. Not to say there's nothing worthwhile there, but I just don't feel it's worth wading through all the open carry hate to get to the 'good' stuff.

    In fact, I'm pretty fed up with the entire "gun rights movement" in CA, with exception to a few people (most found on this board). There's too many people that will cry about CCW and OLLs, but when it comes to OC... "what the hell are you guys thinking exercising your right in that way?"

    (Like 'poor man CCW' and OLL-building aren't just as socially unacceptable "loopholes".)

    Either it's an absolute right, or it is not. Just because a certain exercise of that right is unpopular doesn't make it any less of a right. It sickens me when people disparage those who have the courage to push the envelope, especially since that's the ONLY way we're going to change social meme.
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    cato wrote:
    Calguns is a public forum, a BIG tent and the Biggest tent we have in CA. Want to change opinions and influence events in CA? Be on Calguns and stay on calguns. Make reasoned and well written arguments. Do not be baited into personal tiffs. Do not respond to a hostile poster directly. Stay on topic and redirect discussion back toour "reasonable" position.

    Be willing to consider someone elses point of view (or at least sound like you do). Doing the above may not influence the individual getting your goat BUT it WILL influence the thousands reading and sitting on the fence.

    OC activities over the years have made a dent in the general doom and gloom assumptions of CA gunnies (even thought the tide of opinion ebbs and flows at times). The best thing OCers can do is get involved in supporting the CGN booth at gun shows/events. Be a constituency which is active, valuable, and engaged!

    I hear what you are saying. I think it's a good strategy.But...it can get downright frustrating with some over there. And some of the worst are those that hold officer positions on CGF.

    When I feel like my life is going too good, I post a few comments over there just to bring me down a few notches. When I feel a little frustrated, I come back here and get back up! It's a vicious cycle!


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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    I've decided it's not worth going to CalGuns.net anymore. Not to say there's nothing worthwhile there, but I just don't feel it's worth wading through all the open carry hate to get to the 'good' stuff.

    In fact, I'm pretty fed up with the entire "gun rights movement" in CA, with exception to a few people (most found on this board). There's too many people that will cry about CCW and OLLs, but when it comes to OC... "what the hell are you guys thinking exercising your right in that way?"

    (Like 'poor man CCW' and OLL-building aren't just as socially unacceptable "loopholes".)

    Either it's an absolute right, or it is not. Just because a certain exercise of that right is unpopular doesn't make it any less of a right. It sickens me when people disparage those who have the courage to push the envelope, especially since that's the ONLY way we're going to change social meme.
    I'm reminded of the old saying: A quitter never wins and a winner never quits.



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    HankT wrote:
    I'm reminded of the old saying: A quitter never wins and a winner never quits.

    I also find calguns exhausting. Life's too short, just change teams, besides that my trophy is a piece of parchment behind some really thick glass. I'd rather not arguewith them. I might post here and there, but until they change their unreasonable position on OC, I'm not likely to support them.

    ETA: Since posting, I have thought about this much more. I have decided to support CGN as long as they support UOC'ers. I know they are no longer supporting UOC'ers, but they are still supporting Theseus. So I donated specifically to his effort. Note to CGN Brass: couldn't you continue to support UOC'ers through specific donation funds like Theseus' and not out of your general fund?
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    cato wrote:
    Calguns is a public forum, a BIG tent and the Biggest tent we have in CA. Want to change opinions and influence events in CA? Be on Calguns and stay on calguns. Make reasoned and well written arguments. Do not be baited into personal tiffs. Do not respond to a hostile poster directly. Stay on topic and redirect discussion back toour "reasonable" position.

    Be willing to consider someone elses point of view (or at least sound like you do). Doing the above may not influence the individual getting your goat BUT it WILL influence the thousands reading and sitting on the fence.

    OC activities over the years have made a dent in the general doom and gloom assumptions of CA gunnies (even thought the tide of opinion ebbs and flows at times). The best thing OCers can do is get involved in supporting the CGN booth at gun shows/events. Be a constituency which is active, valuable, and engaged!

    I admit- I'm torn.

    When I see the level of conflict that the practice of exposed carry creates among those who profess to support the 2A, I regret having swallowed my fear to do what ought to be a natural act- and regret posting the experience for the benefit of imitators.

    On the other hand, I am angry that the fear of the California legislators is so great, that it mutes the assertion of our natural rights and responsibilities. I am angry that otherwise great supporters of liberty are cowed into warning us not to advocate for the 2A with open carry. I suspect that UOC will create more conflict than CGN is willing to tolerate and may go the way of CalCCW with the prohibition ofdiscussions on the topic.

    I strongly desire there to be a big tent organization like Virginias VCDL, but Im afraid CGN is not quite as audacious as their east coast counterpart. There must be pursuit of all kinds of 2A issues- with a variety of tactics, not just pursuit of low-hanging fruit through the courts. There must be a fundamental change in how gun owners are perceived. Its unlikely that changing the law will alter perception, because weand the hand-wringing ninnies promoting gun control are the only ones really interested in that.

    I will continue to lend my support to CGF and contribute to CGN, but I have to say, its not because I am an enthusiastic cheerleader for their stands. As for putting forth my reasoned arguements, I'm willing togive it a shot.
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    The linked thread of the OP is overwhelmingly positive toward the open carriers in the video and OC in general. Of the many discussions at CalGuns.net about OC, this one is exceptional.
    I continue to visit that site for the good coverage of firearms issues in CA and I continue to contribute to specific cases like BobBarker and Theseus.

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    coolusername2007 wrote:
    Note to CGN Brass: couldn't you continue to support UOC'ers through specific donation funds like Theseus' and not out of your general fund?
    We haven't even raised enough for Theseus' bill. We don't need or want any more cases.

    The lawsuits in play, 9th and DC Circuit, WILL lead to LOC (even though Sykes is billed as a CCW case)in my opinion and make PERMANENT changes to CA law.

    There is no need for individual OCersto place their finances, jobs, and freedom at great risk at this time.



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    ConditionThree wrote:
    I strongly desire there to be a big tent organization like Virginias VCDL, but Im afraid CGN is not quite as audacious as their east coast counterpart.
    VCDL had and has the courts and laws of Virginiaon their side (it's a Right). We don't have a any state right to arms and we're still waiting on theprotections of the Federal one.

    If Calguns has taught us anything is that OCers need to convert those closest to us to beginto even think ofmaking a dent in CA public and LEO opinion. Having the courts on our side will make that unnecessary, as the public and LEOs will then just have to get used to it.

    Look at how long homosexuals have been trying to "change" public opinion, decades, and they still couldn't defeat prop 8. Which method do we think will be faster for us? Mister Gura's or less then 100 of us meeting every few months.

    Yes legitimate self defense arms (gun) culture needs to make a comeback, but it will take decades before a changelegislatively will be seen in this State (if ever). Their hands need to be tied constitutionally and Gura's the man to make it happen.



    Please read the cases if you haven't. Yes I realize they deal with licensing but it is already precedent that a Right can not be licensed (an issue for a future case if the Supremes don't make it an issue in one of these.)

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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    I hear what you are saying. I think it's a good strategy.But...it can get downright frustrating with some over there. And some of the worst are those that hold officer positions on CGF.

    Many of the officers in CGF are very pro OC in principle. But since OC/UOC is NOT going to get a positive change in the laws (as public opinion in the "power" areas of the state would need to change; LA and SF) they naturally fear the visibility of OCcausing the legislature to throw up more anti 2A "chaff" which in turn requires time and limitedresources to remove.

    Yes OC is liberating, Yes OC demonstrates ALL of the good things mentioned at Mudcampers excellent site: californiaopencarry.org .

    There is, however, a road map, provided by past civil rights litigant's victories, which indicates how to build precedents and paint anti judges into a corner using already established constitutional jurisprudence without legal risk to individuals and FOREVER CHANGE CA LAW. I think Gura's victory in Heller, in light of the "anti individual rights" jurisprudence which existed in the circuit courts, literally brought the 2nd A. back from the dead. I trust his decisions on what cases to pursue and in what order.




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    cato wrote:
    coolusername2007 wrote:
    Note to CGN Brass: couldn't you continue to support UOC'ers through specific donation funds like Theseus' and not out of your general fund?
    We haven't even raised enough for Theseus' bill. We don't need or want any more cases.

    The lawsuits in play, 9th and DC Circuit, WILL lead to LOC (even though Sykes is billed as a CCW case)in my opinion and make PERMANENT changes to CA law.

    There is no need for individual OCersto place their finances, jobs, and freedom at great risk at this time.

    Before I comment, a pre-comment: Ihave no illusions here, I am certain I will not change your mind or the CGN brass, nor am I trying,I post mostlyfor rhetorical purposes.

    The money may and probably never will be enough, but CGN could still support in small amounts. And they don't have to be against OC to not support it financially. I hope all these legal challenges will lead to LOC, but it won't matter because this state will continue to make unconstitutional laws...that is until the political boundaries get redrawn in 2011; everybody needs to pray when this happens that the political process in this state begins to untie itself from the knots its currently in. Further a constitutional convention in this state is also badly needed.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    And for those who don't know it was the (at the time) future CGF Board Member's asking the Right People (including CRPA/NRA's attorney)to contact DA's and set things straight on 12031 for our very first UOC arrests two years ago. These CGF big bugs are on our side. But they have devised a legal strategy and allocated resources to support that planned effort. You want to prove OC has a constituency? Pay Theseus' bill. OC doesn't, YET, have a roll to play in CA. But I think it will eventually. Keep you powder dry, the whites of their eyes are not yet in view.

    Carry On!



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    cato wrote:
    If Calguns has taught us anything is that OCers need to convert those closest to us to beginto even think ofmaking a dent in CA public and LEO opinion. Having the courts on our side will make that unnecessary, as the public and LEOs will then just have to get used to it.
    Just curious, is there a poll on CGN regarding thefavor of OC? It would be interesting to know the numbers if CGN was for and against. People will follow your lead, so gaining OC support will be tough as long as CGN is openly against it.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    coolusername2007 wrote:
    The money may and probably never will be enough, but CGN could still support in small amounts.
    To quote Ron Paul, "If you subsidize something, you get more of it." There was a time then the UOC arrests for 12031 were stacking up, it cost money. They were fully committed to backing two marines (different cases) if it went to trial and beyond. With a few more arrests it was clear that UOC defenses only resulted in returning to the status quo with no positive change in the law. Doing the same thing over and over again with no progress is not smart.

    Now Theseus' case has a little different potential but even that is an uphill effort andbeing on the defensive in CA criminal court the cards are already stacked against you. The other side has all the tools and usually a relationship with the judge too. Much better to be in Civil Federal Court with squeaky clean, non criminal, plaintiffs dealing only with points of law ONLY wanting to exercise your fundamental human rights.

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    coolusername2007 wrote:
    Just curious, is there a poll on CGN regarding thefavor of OC? It would be interesting to know the numbers if CGN was for and against. People will follow your lead, so gaining OC support will be tough as long as CGN is openly against it.
    There have been polls and I don't like them. A sampling of 100 regulars is of no merit IMO. The logic to hold off UOC or to continue should stand on it's own. It should be a cost/risk/benefit analysis. I support LOC as a defensive tactic (anywhere)and OC as political tactic (where it's a Rightwhich gives us leverage beyond our numbers). If that is what I believe I will stick to those guns regardless of CGN opinion. It's been the steadfastefforts of those here over the past two years which I believe has caused many on the net to see OC with more general approval then before (even if they disagree with doing it now).

    But personally, I now think Gene has made a lot of sense on the reasons for pausing CA UOC; we lost Nordyke for now- school zone law is changing/expanding - incorporation by SCOTUS is likely next year- UOC/OC alone is not going to change the lawsas any defendant OCer would need 100s of thousands to mount a criminal defense through the appeals process (where laws are actuallystruck down IF Ca courts are willing).

    And the risks to individuals is muchclearer with Theseus' experience (he was doing nothing wrong by a plain reading of the law).

    Those who continue UOC anyway would be wise to mitigate the PR issues byhaving female and minority involvement. Nothing like busting stereotypes to make the other side look as bad as they really are.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    cato wrote:
    [SNIP] There is no need for individual OCersto place their finances, jobs, and freedom at great risk at this time.

    So, cato, are you not UOC'ing?If not, how long will you not UOC? What is the CGF strategy? What are the milestones that we should look for to know that their strategy is "on-track"?
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    cato wrote:
    There have been polls and I don't like them. A sampling of 100 regulars is of no merit IMO. The logic to hold off UOC or to continue should stand on it's own. It should be a cost/risk/benefit analysis. I support LOC as a defensive tactic (anywhere)and OC as political tactic (where it's a Rightwhich gives us leverage beyond our numbers). If that is what I believe I will stick to those guns regardless of CGN opinion. It's been the steadfastefforts of those here over the past two years which I believe has caused many on the net to see OC with more general approval then before (even if they disagree with doing it now).
    The point of the poll question was because of your comment on converting those within our ranks. I have little idea of the popularity of UOC, I just anecdotally know the comments are generally unfavorable to it.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    cato wrote:
    [SNIP] There is no need for individual OCersto place their finances, jobs, and freedom at great risk at this time.

    So, cato, are you not UOC'ing?If not, how long will you not UOC? What is the CGF strategy? What are the milestones that we should look for to know that their strategy is "on-track"?
    I'm not UOCing anymore at this time (last time was the Feb.San Diego meet). And I'll hold offand thenre-evaluate my decision after THESE CASES create jurisprudence to see if the OC tactic is then a wise battlefield choice.

    Now if one is carrying for self defense that is a different consideration but one that can generally be mitigated by LUCC. In my case I LOC at work and CC after so my personal safety situation is not effected by the laws like everyone else here. But my personal interest in ALL of this is the defense of our basic human Rights of Self Defense and right to possession of tools for that purpose whichbelongs to ALL of us.

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    coolusername2007 wrote:
    The point of the poll question was because of your comment on converting those within our ranks. I have little idea of the popularity of UOC, I just anecdotally know the comments are generally unfavorable to it.
    I would hope UOC would be universally despised! If the question was to be posed it should be, "If Loaded Openand Concealed Carry was legally available to all which would be your preferred method". But then it is just a defensive tactical question.

    I don't even know how to pose the proper poll question as there would need to be variables based on what the law allowed in different circumstances. If it was a purechoice between 100% CCor 100%OC. OC would loose nationwide IMO.

    I guarantee 90%+ of Calgunners want Alaska/Vermont carry.

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    cato wrote:
    The lawsuits in play, 9th and DC Circuit, WILL lead to LOC (even though Sykes is billed as a CCW case)┬*in my opinion and make PERMANENT changes to CA law.
    I keep hearing that the judicial branch can never actually put a strike line through bad law, just rule that it is unenforceable (at least, if lower court justices decide not to be bastards).

    I expect CA to be yet another mole in the whack-a-mole game, just as DC popped up new infringements once Heller was decided. Favorable rulings to us will mean the arrogant infringers have to keep on writing and passing pro-criminal safety legislation in supreme contempt of court.

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    N6ATF wrote:
    I keep hearing that the judicial branch can never actually put a strike line through bad law, just rule that it is unenforceable
    Same difference really. 647e PC was rulled unconstitutional but it took the leg a long time to repeal it. I even arrested someone for it not knowing it was unconstitutional .

    The difference for us is that once the law is changed by case law; 12050, 12031, etc...we'll be banging the drums so hard there will beNO jurisdictionwhich doesn'thear the noise.

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    cato wrote:
    coolusername2007 wrote:
    The point of the poll question was because of your comment on converting those within our ranks. I have little idea of the popularity of UOC, I just anecdotally know the comments are generally unfavorable to it.
    I would hope UOC would be universally despised! If the question was to be posed it should be, "If Loaded Openand Concealed Carry was legally available to all which would be your preferred method". But then it is just a defensive tactical question.

    I don't even know how to pose the proper poll question as there would need to be variables based on what the law allowed in different circumstances. If it was a purechoice between 100% CCor 100%OC. OC would loose nationwide IMO.

    I guarantee 90%+ of Calgunners want Alaska/Vermont carry.
    Well of course UOC is despised over LOC, but being that its all we have, it doesn't make sense to poll anything else. The options of the poll should be limited to what is currently and realistically available.

    Given the current, realistically available options for carry, which do you prefer?

    A.UOC

    B.LUCC

    If that poll has not been conducted on CGN maybe it should be.

    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    cato wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    I keep hearing that the judicial branch can never actually put a strike line through bad law, just rule that it is unenforceable
    Same difference really.┬* 647e PC was rulled unconstitutional but it took the leg a long time to repeal it.┬* I even arrested someone for it not knowing it was unconstitutional .

    The difference for us is that once the law is changed by case law; 12050, 12031, etc...we'll be banging the drums so hard there will be┬*NO jurisdiction┬*which doesn't┬*hear the noise.
    Ah yeah, vague "loitering" & failure to ID... they didn't just repeal it, they put something in its place for the newer code books:

    http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/647e.html

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