Anti-gun bigotry may be losing traction..due to OC incidents

imported post

Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:

HankT wrote:

Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:

Yeah Dave, even the guy with the AR didn't panic people... some were obviously nervous.... but they willingly talked to the guy and discussed their fears.... this guy has done more positive work for our effort than anyone yet. We need more people in groups of mixed race (so people cannot claim we're KKK) to stand together armed and peaceful... as a reminder of who the American people are and that while we may be more armed than any other society, those of us not hiding in the shadows are the safest and most trustworthy gun owners out there.

Click to expand...

Hmm, caused nervousness...but not ... panic.

I'm not sure how that is a benefit.

I'd wait a little bit before we start concluding that one black fellow with an AR and a sidearm walking around some presidential town hall event in sunny Arizona has helped the pro-gun rights case. Don't forget what happened to OUR very own BMWAG....

As far as "we" needing more, ahem, color, in our ranks....well, that it is alwaysusually good idea to have diversity of membershiinmajor political and social efforts. If "we" can achieve some major, or proportional, diversification in our ranks, hey, great.

But, and I'm open to being convinced otherwise, the pro-gun rights/ownership community seems largely white--probably significantly whiter than the general population. There are several reasons for that.

What's our diversity in our membership here at OCDO? Do we stack up to the gen pop's proportions of Hispanics (~15%), Blacks (~13.5%) and Asians (~5%).

We have some, of course. Some members have identified themselves as being part of the minorities represent in the 34% of the general population.

But is more than 1/3 of OCDO of a so-called minority status?

I doubt it.

That's not bad, necessarily. I don't say that. It is what it is.

But it ain't 34%.

Before "we" start patting ourselves on the back for having a national BMWAAR over in Arizona, we might do well to consider why it is that "we" have so few minorities involved (as a representative percentage) in the pro-gun/rights movement. Or the open carry movement, for that matter. The former being, of course, more important than the latter.

Click to expand...

Your math is off just a scoche. Current demographics surveys show that the Caucasian population is currently 74% which means the rest of the US population occupies only 28%. That is not to diminish the idea of American inclusiveness, but diversity for diversity's sake should always be fought. Multiculturalism and diversity are not good.... American inclusiveness, the American melting pot and American exceptionalism should be promoted at every opportunity.

Click to expand...

Nah.

Are Hispanics/Latinos included in your 74%? How convenient...

If you include white-Hispanics in your 74%, then you will get the wrong answer.

Instead of taking the 74% white number off the top and then concluding that the balance are the minorities.....start with the minority numbers:



Example (Wiki), using 2006 data (there are numerous estimates, pick one):

14.8% Hispanics (est.)

13.5% Blacks (est.)

4.4% Asian (est.)

--------

32.7% Total minorities (main class'ns)

Then apply a smallish upward adjustment to reflect 2009 reality. Use 2-3 % to get ~ 34%.



Oh, BTW, the melting pot metaphor has diminished greatly in popularity. It's passé. It worked for several decades but doesn't represent demographic trends or cultural/subcultural realities.

imported post

HankT wrote:

Example (Wiki), using 2006 data

[SNIP]

Click to expand...

Please, for the love of all that is holy in statistics (which isn't much) don't cite wikipedia. They're not at all objective nor are they precise or accurate. Many of the articles on wikipedia have very questionable statements and some have outright misinformation. When you let just anyone edit an article, bad things happen.

If you absolutely have to use wikipedia because it's convenient (and I acknowledge that it's internet arguing in easy-mode), the best way to do it is to look at the statistic or figure you want to quote and find the source wikipedia documents as its source. Then, go to that source directly, read the entire article or portion of the book or journal for context, and verify that the figure or statistic accurately reflects what you're trying to state. Cite the original source and don't make any mention of wikipedia at all. Consider wikipedia like a very knowledgeable librarian who helps you find the actual article.

For statistics on race in the USA, unfortunately, the best source we have is the US Census Bureau and they are decidedly inaccurate and imprecise. They frequently use the SWAG method to estimate the population in housing projects, for example. (SWAG = Super Wild-Ass Guess) Unfortunately the Census Bureau is our best bet when it comes to population demographics.

imported post

shad0wfax wrote:

HankT wrote:

Example (Wiki), using 2006 data

[SNIP]

Click to expand...

Please, for the love of all that is holy in statistics (which isn't much) don't cite wikipedia. They're not at all objective nor are they precise or accurate. Many of the articles on wikipedia have very questionable statements and some have outright misinformation. When you let just anyone edit an article, bad things happen.

If you absolutely have to use wikipedia because it's convenient (and I acknowledge that it's internet arguing in easy-mode), the best way to do it is to look at the statistic or figure you want to quote and find the source wikipedia documents as its source. Then, go to that source directly, read the entire article or portion of the book or journal for context, and verify that the figure or statistic accurately reflects what you're trying to state. Cite the original source and don't make any mention of wikipedia at all. Consider wikipedia like a very knowledgeable librarian who helps you find the actual article.

For statistics on race in the USA, unfortunately, the best source we have is the US Census Bureau and they are decidedly inaccurate and imprecise. They frequently use the SWAG method to estimate the population in housing projects, for example. (SWAG = Super Wild-Ass Guess) Unfortunately the Census Bureau is our best bet when it comes to population demographics.

Click to expand...

Wow, you're one of those nothing works, nothing is useful guys.

One question for you: What percentages do you think comprise the Hispanic/Latino, Black and Asian communities?

Got any idea, shadow?

imported post

HankT wrote:

Wow, you're one of those nothing works, nothing is useful guys.

One question for you: What percentages do you think comprise the Hispanic/Latino, Black and Asian communities?

Got any idea, shadow?

Click to expand...

Aww now that's not fair. I use wikipedia like a fiend, I just verify what I read their from the sources they cite. It's more work, but it's actually valid, as opposed to edited by some high-school troll who thinks it's funny to put words in peoples mouths with false quotes.


U.S. Census, 2000 http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2000/dp1/2kh00.pdf

62.7% White, and only white, one single race in no other combination (by extrapolation of the following)

12.5% Hispanic or Latino of any race
12.3% Black or African American
5.5% Some Other Race
3.6% Asian
2.4% Two or More Races
0.9% American Indian and Alaskan Native
0.1% Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander


It wasn't that hard.

imported post

shad0wfax wrote:

HankT wrote:

Wow, you're one of those nothing works, nothing is useful guys.

One question for you: What percentages do you think comprise the Hispanic/Latino, Black and Asian communities?

Got any idea, shadow?

Click to expand...

Aww now that's not fair. I use wikipedia like a fiend, I just verify what I read their from the sources they cite. It's more work, but it's actually valid, as opposed to edited by some high-school troll who thinks it's funny to put words in peoples mouths with false quotes.


U.S. Census, 2000 http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2000/dp1/2kh00.pdf

62.7% White, and only white, one single race in no other combination (by extrapolation of the following)

12.5% Hispanic or Latino of any race
12.3% Black or African American
5.5% Some Other Race
3.6% Asian
2.4% Two or More Races
0.9% American Indian and Alaskan Native
0.1% Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander


It wasn't that hard.

Click to expand...

So, now that you have your hard numbers (2000 vs. 2009), what do you think of the previous points about the under-representation of minorities in the pro-2A andcarry communities? Or at OCDO, for that matter?

Hazard a view on that, shadow?

imported post

HankT wrote:

So, now that you have your hard numbers (2000 vs. 2009), what do you think of the previous points about the under-representation of minorities in the pro-2A andcarry communities? Or at OCDO, for that matter?

Hazard a view on that, shadow?

Click to expand...

Unfortunately the Census is once per decade, meaning we won't get results until 2010, and even those results may not be very precise or accurate.

As far as hazarding a view on the under-representation of minorities in the pro-2a and carry communities I can't even begin to guess percentages. Here's what I can say: Minorities are under-represented in terms of lawful CC and OC in the USA.

In Spokane, WA where I live, the population is roughly 85% white. I know of three Native Americans who open-carry. As far as concealed carry goes I know of one African American woman and one African American man who carry. (They are not related.) I know of two Asian American men who carry and one Puerto-Rican American man who carries. I know two Hispanic/Latino Americans who carry. I know three white (no one calls us Caucasian Americans...) women who carry. I know of one African American man in the Moscow ID area who open-carries. (The demographics there are even more predominately white than in Spokane, if you don't count the University of Idaho students and faculty, which he is not a member of.)

That being said I probably know 30 white men who open-carry and well over 70 white men who conceal-carry.

Granted, I'm from eastern Washington and the demographics (in terms of general race) here are skewed more heavily towards whites and the demographics of firearm ownership here is probably higher than many (but not all) areas of the country. Furthermore, the number of CPL's issued in this county is disproportionately high compared to some other counties in my state.

I can't really hazard a guess on percentages though, because you're talking at a national level and I'm talking about a 100-150 mile radius in a relatively high-gun per-capita area. I also met the majority of the minorities who carry through college and college acquaintances who like guns and love liberty. Birds of a feather... I tended not to associate with the anti-gunners so I'm already skewing my own demographic perception because I gravitate towards like-minded people.

I think if I had to hazard a guess, total racial minority (meaning non-white) who are regular and lawful OC and CC folks amount to less than 10% and may be closer to 5% of the lawful OC and CC regular carry population. That's a SWAG with no real statistical basis other than my own regions (admittedly skewed) percentages adjusted via SWAG for the nation.

imported post

shad0wfax wrote:

I think if I had to hazard a guess, total racial minority (meaning non-white) who are regular and lawful OC and CC folks amount to less than 10% and may be closer to 5% of the lawful OC and CC regular carry population. That's a SWAG with no real statistical basis other than my own regions (admittedly skewed) percentages adjusted via SWAG for the nation.

Click to expand...

SWAG is OK sometimes. Depends on the level of analysis. For here, it's OK if it helps us understand the questions and informs on the potential answers, especially the probable range of the answers.

I don't have a problem with a 5% estimate for minority carriers. It seems plausible to me.

The conclusions that might follow from that estimate, are both important and interesting.

One conclusion is that OCDO and all other Internet gun forums are seriously under-represented by minorities. That's not to say that somebody (white) is at fault for that.

OTOH, such a serious under-representation is likely to be meaningful to the total population of carriers (and pro-2Aers).

Of course, this can all be ignored. Maybe it won't matter a whit. Maybe it's too hard to discuss, anyway. Maybe it's just better to be simplistic about it.... Complexity hurts...

We can just look at a pic ofone BMWAAR in Arizona and figure that everything is fine, fine, fine....

imported post

Those numbers seemed scewed do they not? I dont even think the population of America is 62 percent Caucasian.That just seems a little odd to me.

imported post

Prophet wrote:

Actually, once again AWD is talking out of his ass. Those people in that poster, may be called "native" americans due to some sense of political correctness but they immigrated here as well.

Click to expand...

The menin that poster are White Mountain Apache 'n called white men 'Americans'... as opposed to the 'Mexicans'.'Apache' comes from a Zuñi word meaning "enemy."

[align=center]

[/align]
[align=center]Photo taken after Geronimo's surrender to General Crook[/align]
[align=center]in March, 1886. Left to right: Yanozha, Geronimo's [/align]
[align=center]brother-in-law; his son, Chappo; Fun; his 2nd cousin; [/align]
[align=center]and Geronimo, 1886, photo by C.S. Fly[/align]
[align=center][/align]
[align=center](That'd be the surrender at Skeleton Canyon)[/align]
America... from the explorer cartographer Amerigo Vespucci... had a habit of signing his maps on the rather blank interior of North America. This was copied by hired artists (who copied maps but were often illiterate) and they scribed 'Amerigo' where and as seen.

If Stylez had been around to call any of these guys 'Americans'... they would'a had a good laugh... then lifted his hair... 'maybe ate his liver... while he watched.

imported post

HankT wrote:

[SNIP]
We can just look at a pic ofone BMWAAR in Arizona and figure that everything is fine, fine, fine....

Click to expand...

I'll tell you what, I celebrated diversity like nobodies business when I saw that black gentleman openly carrying his AR-15 and his sidearm. All I could think was, "That's excellent. And for once they won't be able to call us all gun toting right-wing radical neo-nazi skin-head Timothy McVeigh Aryan types."

I want to see more sharp-dressed minorities speaking eloquently about their rights while open carrying, for the sake of minorities AND for the sake of the open carry movement.

Sadly, I don't think my 5% SWAG is too far off for lawful OC/CC. I don't know if that necessarily says anything negative about us. I do believe it is an indication that the majority of the minorities have, sadly, bought into this notion that the Democrats are their friends and that all issues liberal are the ideals they need to embrace to ensure that they have a voice in our country... And that means that a great deal of minorities have been swayed to the socalist side.

How many minority libertarians do you know? (Gun-owning or not?) I think that's the more relevant question.

Now, as for Bustelo5%'s comment that the Caucasian population of the US isn't 62% I think that sounds very reasonable. Urban areas have more minorities, rural areas are almost predominantly white. I think when you look at the nation as a whole that's an accurate assessment unless you are getting extremely technical about the term Caucasian, meaning descended from people originating in the Caucasus mountains instead of just meaning "white."

imported post

Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:

Dave Workman wrote:

Anti-gun bigotry may be losing traction.

Some open-carry incidents at Obama events have not raised the angst of American citizens, only some televisiontalking headsand anti-gunners

http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m8d18-FOLLOWUP-Antigun-bigotry-may-be-losing-traction

Or try this:

http://tinyurl.com/qlfjyh

Click to expand...

Yeah Dave, even the guy with the AR didn't panic people... some were obviously nervous.... but they willingly talked to the guy and discussed their fears.... this guy has done more positive work for our effort than anyone yet. We need more people in groups of mixed race (so people cannot claim we're KKK) to stand together armed and peaceful... as a reminder of who the American people are and that while we may be more armed than any other society, those of us not hiding in the shadows are the safest and most trustworthy gun owners out there.

Click to expand...

right. I was a giant love fest. Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of. OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

imported post

Idontownone wrote:

right. I was a giant love fest. Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of. OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

Click to expand...

Okay, "you was a giant love fest." :quirky
No, it wasn't a giant love fest. It was a political rally/protest, and no one got hurt or threatened.




Idontownone wrote: users/37810.html

Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of.

Click to expand...

You missed the part where no one got hurt or threatened. I also saw no reports of "normal" people having the crap scared out of them.





Idontownone wrote:

OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

Click to expand...

False. Find ONE report of this happening.

You simply are spouting hoplophobia-induced FUD. Trolling down the river.

imported post

Im am looking foward to my buddies from Hawaii one of whom is half Hawaiian and getting him into OC its going to be great.
I have been asking around back home in Hawaii and I cannot find anyone who carry's there at all its shit.

I wonder if there is any NRA teachers /CC teachers from their respective PD staions willing to start a minority based and fully funded initiative in getting more to start neighborhood watch OC groups.
I dont mean to target those but I think if funds can be donated to starting this more and more the good guys all over the place can get their neighborhoods in check.

imported post

wrightme wrote:

Idontownone wrote:

right. I was a giant love fest. Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of. OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

Click to expand...

Okay, "you was a giant love fest."
No, it wasn't a giant love fest. It was a political rally/protest, and no one got hurt or threatened.




Idontownone wrote: users/37810.html

Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of.

Click to expand...

You missed the part where no one got hurt or threatened. I also saw no reports of "normal" people having the crap scared out of them.





Idontownone wrote:

OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

Click to expand...

False. Find ONE report of this happening.

You simply are spouting hoplophobia-induced FUD. Trolling down the river.

Click to expand...

So, I guess you read every news report ever printed and know that no one was frightened? Read the MSNBC poll. 65% ok- 35% not ok. However read a bunch of the OK ones and you will see even gun owners in AZ have a problem with it.

imported post

Idontownone wrote:

wrightme wrote:

Idontownone wrote:

right. I was a giant love fest. Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of. OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

Click to expand...

Okay, "you was a giant love fest."
No, it wasn't a giant love fest. It was a political rally/protest, and no one got hurt or threatened.




Idontownone wrote:

Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of.

Click to expand...

You missed the part where no one got hurt or threatened. I also saw no reports of "normal" people having the crap scared out of them.





Idontownone wrote:

OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

Click to expand...

False. Find ONE report of this happening.

You simply are spouting hoplophobia-induced FUD. Trolling down the river.

Click to expand...

So, I guess you read every news report ever printed and know that no one was frightened? Read the MSNBC poll. 65% ok- 35% not ok. However read a bunch of the OK ones and you will see even gun owners in AZ have a problem with it.

Click to expand...

No, I did not "read every news report ever printed and know that no one was frightened." Strawman.

I DID not read any news report where anyone was frightened. Strawman.


You stated "carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so I can blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off." You failed to show where this "feared" act you spout about ever happened. FUD in its true form.

You allege that "normal" people had the crap scared out of them. Prove it.

imported post

wrightme wrote:

Idontownone wrote:

wrightme wrote:

Idontownone wrote:

right. I was a giant love fest. Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of. OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

Click to expand...

Okay, "you was a giant love fest."
No, it wasn't a giant love fest. It was a political rally/protest, and no one got hurt or threatened.




Idontownone wrote:

Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of.

Click to expand...

You missed the part where no one got hurt or threatened. I also saw no reports of "normal" people having the crap scared out of them.





Idontownone wrote:

OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

Click to expand...

False. Find ONE report of this happening.

You simply are spouting hoplophobia-induced FUD. Trolling down the river.

Click to expand...

So, I guess you read every news report ever printed and know that no one was frightened? Read the MSNBC poll. 65% ok- 35% not ok. However read a bunch of the OK ones and you will see even gun owners in AZ have a problem with it.

Click to expand...

No, I did not "read every news report ever printed and know that no one was frightened." Strawman.

I DID not read any news report where anyone was frightened. Strawman.


You stated "carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so I can blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off." You failed to show where this "feared" act you spout about ever happened. FUD in its true form.

Click to expand...

I don't knowwho you are referring to but I am not him. Did you bother to look at the MSNBC poll?

imported post

Idontownone wrote:

wrightme wrote:

Idontownone wrote:

wrightme wrote:

Idontownone wrote:

right. I was a giant love fest. Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of. OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

Click to expand...

Okay, "you was a giant love fest."
No, it wasn't a giant love fest. It was a political rally/protest, and no one got hurt or threatened.




Idontownone wrote:

Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of.

Click to expand...

You missed the part where no one got hurt or threatened. I also saw no reports of "normal" people having the crap scared out of them.





Idontownone wrote:

OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off.

Click to expand...

False. Find ONE report of this happening.

You simply are spouting hoplophobia-induced FUD. Trolling down the river.

Click to expand...

So, I guess you read every news report ever printed and know that no one was frightened? Read the MSNBC poll. 65% ok- 35% not ok. However read a bunch of the OK ones and you will see even gun owners in AZ have a problem with it.

Click to expand...

No, I did not "read every news report ever printed and know that no one was frightened." Strawman.

I DID not read any news report where anyone was frightened. Strawman.


You stated "carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so I can blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off." You failed to show where this "feared" act you spout about ever happened. FUD in its true form.

Click to expand...

I don't knowwho you are referring to but I am not him. Did you bother to look at the MSNBC poll?

Click to expand...

what do you mean that you "are not him?" :?

Did you not state "Bozo gun-nut protestor and all of the "normal" people he scared the crap out of"?

Did you not state "OC = I carry my weapon to the friggin grocery store so Ican blow away some stupid clerk who pisses me off"?

Where are the reports of "normal" people that he "scared the crap out of?" Failing support, your statement is false. You are either lying through your teeth, or severely ignorant about the topic.

Where are the reports of ANYONE who "carried a weapon to the friggin grocery store so they blow away some stupid clerk who pisses them off?"

What MSNBC poll are you referencing?

imported post

Bustelo5% wrote:

Im am looking foward to my buddies from Hawaii one of whom is half Hawaiian and getting him into OC its going to be great.
I have been asking around back home in Hawaii and I cannot find anyone who carry's there at all its @#$%.

I wonder if there is any NRA teachers /CC teachers from their respective PD staions willing to start a minority based and fully funded initiative in getting more to start neighborhood watch OC groups.
I dont mean to target those but I think if funds can be donated to starting this more and more the good guys all over the place can get their neighborhoods in check.

Click to expand...

You can't open carry or conceal carry their they just don't issue permits, its "may"issue state. I love Hawaii used to live their my family is there, I can't wait till my polynesian brother-in-laws visit me here, in Wa, I know they will get a kick out of open carrying.

The only permits issued or to LEO, or licensed armed security. I think there is one on Maui probably a very rich person would be my guess.

imported post

How can MSNBC be so arrogant as to think they can get away with masking the race of the AR-15 carrier? I mean, really, did they think the rest of the gun owner community wouldn't notice? It's no wonder their ratings are at the bottom of the media cesspool.

I think I just might turn MSNBC on long enough to get the executives excited in the one viewer ratings boost before their advertising base implodes.

imported post

Statesman wrote:

How can MSNBC be so arrogant as to think they can get away with masking the race of the AR-15 carrier? I mean, really, did they think the rest of the gun owner community wouldn't notice? It's no wonder their ratings are at the bottom of the media cesspool.

I think I just might turn MSNBC on long enough to get the executives excited in the one viewer ratings boost before their advertising base implodes.

Click to expand...

It's further evidence that MSNBC and many of the other mainstream national news organizations truly do have an agenda. They simply had to report on OC near a location where the president was because if they didn't it wouldn't further their anti-gun agenda.

However, pointing out the race of the law abiding citizen with a gun (in this case a black man) would have reduced the sensational impact of the story and made the implied threat to the president nearly a non-issue, thus not sensational news. By not telling anyone what race he was, the race reverts to "default-white." (Don't look at me for the source of that neologism, the liberals at U.S. public universities use that exact term in American Studies courses.) By allowing the public to assume "default-white" for the gun-owners race it makes it look more like he's a conservative bitterly clinging to his guns, religion and his antipathy towards others not like him. (read: antipathy towards non-whites)

It's ok for the President to make statements with implied racism embedded within them. It's ok for the media to use open-carry to reinforce the President's quasi-racist rhetoric. But as soon as a man similar to the President (in terms of skin color) breaks the mold the President tried to fit gun-owners into, such details must be hidden or obfuscated.