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Thread: TERMINATION OF SECOND AMENDMENT FOUNDATION MEMBERSHIP

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    To ALL:

    I terminated my membership with the SECOND AMENDMENT FOUNDATION (SAF) this morning after many years, due the inappropriate remarks made by Alan Gottlieb the Director of the SAF - Alan's remarks that he thought it inappropriate to carry a rifle, where it was completely legal to do so, flies in the face of the Second Amendment, the very name of the organization he represents.

    All members of the SAF should considered the words of Alan Gottlieb and do what they consider needs to be done. I have received e-mails from several others, who have either already done the same or were in the process of doing the same = Termination of their SAF membership.


    In a word, what Alan did is UNBELIEVABLE !

    What Alan said is totally against the SECOND AMENDMENT and the Constitution of the United States.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcfWnsQyAPA
    The interview on Lou Dobbs with Alan Gottlieb SAF Director

    +++++++++++++++++++

    My e-mail submitted to SAF via the Internet this morning:

    http://www.saf.org/default3.asp?p=contact

    SUBJECT : I QUIT SAF WHY ? Alan Gottlieb's remarks with Lou Dobbs

    "Due to Alan Gottlieb's remarks during the Lou Dobbs, Helmke, Gottlieb video about the male individualopen carrying a rifle at the Arizona gathering, I've decided last night to cease sending any funds to SAF. Alan's remarks that he thought it inappropriate to carry a rifle, where it was completely legal to do so, flies in the face of the Second Amendment.

    Please remove my name from any SAF mailing list and also from SAF's membership rolls.

    You will need to look up my membership number since I trashed everything from the SAF last night.

    //S//

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Just because he personally feels it inappropriate does not mean he will not defend your right to engage in that activity. I think you over reacted on this one.

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    Before you decide to post a thread, turn off caps lock. Or, better yet, don't post a thread at all. He said that, for that forum, he thought concealed was better. He was talking about being politically smart.

    Helmke, as always, it a tool
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    I don't like that he made a comment about the "appropriateness" of the gentleman's carry.
    I do think that he put Helmke in his place and made clear that the man was:
    a) Within his rights
    b) Not a threat
    c) A Patriot

    If I see a lot of this from the SAF, I will revoke my membership as well.

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    lockman wrote:
    Just because he personally feels it inappropriate does not mean he will not defend your right to engage in that activity. I think you over reacted on this one.

    I disagree.

    He said this as the Leader of SAF on National News Media, people - organizations - the news media - will use this as the platform of SAF.

    Whenever talking to the news media nothing is "off record" or "my personal opinion".

    If he would have said this to you or I over a cup of coffee in a private conversation then that wouldbe different.

    I stand by my actions and the actions of others whom have done the same and are doing the same.










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    I terminated my contributions and asked to be removed from SAF membership roles also.

    Yes, Alan could have said that HE would conceal, maybe that's what he should have said and stopped right there. He did not stop there. That made his spiel unacceptable for me.

    Folks, if we don't do everything that we can to show that we object to creeping socialism today, tomorrow we may find that it's too late to stop "change".

    NO compromise, accept nothing less than what's included in the Second Amendment.

    PS: TAWNOS please accept my apologies for using two caps in the word "NO" and in "HE", I hope you'll forgive me. (lighten up fella)

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    I think I saw that interview and thought Alan's comments were pretty balanced and that he said something like that the people were within their rights though perhaps not politically smart. He then went on to make fun of the Brady's guy's statements pretty good.

    My personal view is that open carrying guns, let alone long guns, only as a way of expressing your opposition to health care policy proposals risks garbling the message and confusing the target audience.

    Open carry as a form of expressive conduct re non-gun rights issues does not help us in my opinion.


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    Mike wrote:
    Open carry as a form of expressive conduct re non-gun rights issues does not help us in my opinion.

    And the name of this forum is OpenCarry.org ? Mike, I think that you're confused about what the Second Amendment says and I disagree with your statement above.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OCJn...eature=related

    above CNN on the Arizona Open Carry of a Semi Auto Rifle, here the news media goes again

    As another poster elsewhere OPEN CARRY said he would have like to see thousands carrying a rifle, I said a MILLION carry a rifle would be GREAT !

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    You heard it hear first...

    Helmke:

    "I am not anti gun"


    What a tool

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    Mike wrote:
    I think I saw that interview and thought Alan's comments were pretty balanced and that he said something like that the people were within their rights though perhaps not politically smart. He then went on to make fun of the Brady's guy's statements pretty good.

    My personal view is that open carrying guns, let alone long guns, only as a way of expressing your opposition to health care policy proposals risks garbling the message and confusing the target audience.

    Open carry as a form of expressive conduct re non-gun rights issues does not help us in my opinion.
    IDAHO COWBOY
    listen to the man's words with the rifle on this video and the first video I posted,

    Why the man brought the rifle ? listen to his words why he did it and he does not use the words "healthcare" - but because it is his Right and he wants to educate people

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BvOY...eature=related

    another National News Media take on open carry - not just rifles but guns in general

    Why the man brought the rifle ? listen to his words why he did it and he does not use the words "healthcare" - but because it is his Right and he wants to educate people

    ++++++++++++++++

    above is my previous post:

    this is my new post:

    Mike - I do not "think" I saw the interview, I know I saw and hear the interview at least 10 times.

    1. The man with the semi-auto rifle, when hewas asked why he was carrying the riflesaid he was from another Statewhere open carry was legal but the Peace Officersdid not always observe the law, he was exercising his Rights and educating other people by carrying his rifle

    Mike - "as a way of expressing your opposition to health care policy proposals risks"

    1. Inever heard the man with the semi-auto rifle even mention the word "healthcare"

    Mike - "Open carry as a form of expressive conduct re non-gun rights issues"

    1. As I said on one of my other posts, I do not carry guns for fun or to show off or to get my name in the news or anything like that. On a daily basis, I carryguns for work, guns are simply tools, extensions of my hands and arms for wild animals, snakes, and whatever else is a threat to me or mine since I cannot call 911 since no cell phone service and do not always sit on my laurels in an office, even if I did 911 response would 1 to 4 hours arriving if I could give them lat andlong. I carry open or concealed based on the weather much more than I do the location (winter / summer).

    Mike - "Alan's comments were pretty balanced and that he said something like that the people were within their rights though perhaps not politically smart."

    1. This "PC" stuff and giving into to Commies and Socialist for the last 100 years (since 1909) by the NRA (more - 1930's, 1968, 1989, 1994, etc) and SAF (some)
    is exactly why we are in the shape today we are. Alan's job as the Leader of Second Amendment Foundation is to protect and defend the Second Amendment - period.

    2. A Right not exercised is a Right losted !

    3. Alan was on the show representing SAF not himself, Lou Dobbs had him on the show because he is the Leader of SAF.

    3. I would have not traveled to see this parade of " .....", but if they showed up where I live and travel I would not change my habits because of them, I would still wear my handguns and carry rifle/shotgun.

    Mike - "My personal view is that open carrying guns, let alone long guns"

    1. Please explain - " let alone long guns" ? what does this mean ? I have no problem carrying knives, handguns, or long guns anywhere - anytime, the only thing that restricts me are the laws on some places we are not allowed to carry. Muzzle control is always very important.

    For All - the Second Amendment - "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

    1. No mention of open or concealed, No mention of pistols or rifles (muskets) or knives or tomahawks, No mention of locations, No mention of activities

    2. "keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" - have ARMS and carry ARMS without any restriction of any kind

    3. The only truly legal law on ARMS is the Second Amendment, all other so-called laws are illegal since these other so-called laws "infringe" on the Right of the People to keep and bear arms. - Really it is just that simple, the only law we need is the Second Amendment, all these other laws are simply "People Control" laws.

    Mike - As I posted else where here, there is no off the record with the media anywhere - anytime, over a cup of coffee in private I would listen to Alan's remarks then give him my thoughts - no harm no foul, but him doing his comments on national media regardless of what he said about his personal opinions, was taken by the media and the people as a whole as the position of the SAF not just his personal opinion which is why Lou Dobbs had him there.

    P.S. Lou Dobbs was 100% correct with everything he said.

    P.S. I am a member of the NRA, GOA, SAS, and JPFO (No I am not Jewish, not a requirement to be member), State Associations, and local clubs - along with being a "former" SAF member. The NRA is on the verge of losing my membership too, after over 40 years,Chris Cox NRA-ILA supports some incorrect issues at times and gives in to easy to the Anti-2A, one more straw will break the camel's back then I am done with the NRA, too.

    Mike - Have a good day.





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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFlEYD9Koec&NR=1

    here is another so called hunting and gun owning live in the Mid-West USA show host on TV, who is all for your duck hunting Rights, butnot your OPEN Carry Rights of a HANDGUN (notice I did not type RIFLE), reference to the oper carry pistol fellar in NH (not AZ)

    Some of us open carry just to carry not to show off or educate others, it is just the way we carry - OPEN Carry due to weather or work clothing - period esp in the warmer months. Yes, ZERO or below weather, Yes concealed handgun outdoors but Rifle always handy - within arms reach, while in the saddle on a horse or driving down the road in a pickup or chowing down at home or in a the local cafe, guess what it is tradition, no one gives it a second thought.

    Too many are brain washed over the years.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Why not email the SAF with your feelings instead of ditching your memberships right away? Maybe get them to change their stance.

    I thought everyone would learn from the Jim Zumbo experience a few years back. If you're not familiar with it, he made some negative remarks about AR-15's being used for hunting that sent everyone up in an uproar. He lost sponsors, lost his show for a while, and was able to see what everyone was mad about. After actually taking them out and using them, and being helped out by The Nuge, he changed his position on the subject.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

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    From My First Post above:

    My e-mail submitted to SAF via the Internet this morning:

    http://www.saf.org/default3.asp?p=contact

    SUBJECT : I QUIT SAF WHY ? Alan Gottlieb's remarks with Lou Dobbs

    "Due to Alan Gottlieb's remarks during the Lou Dobbs, Helmke, Gottlieb video about the male individualopen carrying a rifle at the Arizona gathering, I've decided last night to cease sending any funds to SAF. Alan's remarks that he thought it inappropriate to carry a rifle, where it was completely legal to do so, flies in the face of the Second Amendment.

    Please remove my name from any SAF mailing list and also from SAF's membership rolls.

    You will need to look up my membership number since I trashed everything from the SAF last night.

    //S//


    ++++++++++++++

    If Alan Gottlieb's wants to go back on Lou Dobbs and change his position to the correct position of fully supporting the Second Amendment then that is fine with me, I would then re-new my membership with SAF, but until that happens I am not and several will not be members of the SAF.

    There is no riding the fence or playing two sides of the fence on the Second Amendment, to borrow a quote "your either with us or against us".

    Alan's remarks that he thought it inappropriate to carry a rifle, where it was completely legal to do so, flies in the face of the Second Amendment, the very name of the organization he represents.









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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    IDAHO COWBOY wrote:
    There is no riding the fence or playing two sides of the fence on the Second Amendment, to borrow a quote "your either with us or against us".
    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" -- Obi Wan Kenobi

    (couldn't resist):quirky
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Brass Magnet wrote:
    Why not email the SAF with your feelings instead of ditching your memberships right away? Maybe get them to change their stance.
    Simply because I believe that there can be no compromise about the Second Amendment. In spite of Justice Scalia's comments this spring in the "Heller" decision, no place in the Bill of Rights is the language as clear as it is in the Second Amendment, where it says "Shall Not Be Infringed".

    As far as I'm concerned, Alan Gottlieb (and SAF) stepped on his wang.



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    Brass Magnet wrote:
    IDAHO COWBOY wrote:
    There is no riding the fence or playing two sides of the fence on the Second Amendment, to borrow a quote "your either with us or against us".
    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" -- Obi Wan Kenobi

    (couldn't resist):quirky
    Hey cool, so I'm a "Sith" and I'm proud to be one. The Second Amendment is as close to an absolute as things get.



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    ricecountyrefugee wrote:
    I terminated my contributions and asked to be removed from SAF membership roles also.

    Yes, Alan could have said that HE would conceal, maybe that's what he should have said and stopped right there. He did not stop there. That made his spiel unacceptable for me.

    Folks, if we don't do everything that we can to show that we object to creeping socialism today, tomorrow we may find that it's too late to stop "change".

    NO compromise, accept nothing less than what's included in the Second Amendment.

    PS: TAWNOS please accept my apologies for using two caps in the word "NO" and in "HE", I hope you'll forgive me. (lighten up fella)
    I don't care if you use it once or twice when you want to emphasize a word the way YOU would say it. Idaho Cowboy just uses all caps for almost every (maybe even every) thread he submits, and randomly starts capitalized sections.

    It makes the voices in my head that read the forum yell at me, and I don't like being yelled at.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Tawnos wrote:
    It makes the voices in my head that read the forum yell at me, and I don't like being yelled at.
    I'll say it again, just friendly advice, because you sound stressed, "lighten up fella"



  20. #20
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    I believe those who are quitting SAF either misunderstood Gottlieb, or are mischaracterizing what he said.

    He said that he didn't believe the rifle was "politically smart". He didn't condemn "Chris", and he supported the right to carry the rifle. He merely opined that it might not be a good political strategy.

    I disagree with Gottlieb on that point, but it hardly makes him any less pro-gun.



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    Tawnos wrote:
    ricecountyrefugee wrote:
    I terminated my contributions and asked to be removed from SAF membership roles also.

    Yes, Alan could have said that HE would conceal, maybe that's what he should have said and stopped right there. He did not stop there. That made his spiel unacceptable for me.

    Folks, if we don't do everything that we can to show that we object to creeping socialism today, tomorrow we may find that it's too late to stop "change".

    NO compromise, accept nothing less than what's included in the Second Amendment.

    PS: TAWNOS please accept my apologies for using two caps in the word "NO" and in "HE", I hope you'll forgive me. (lighten up fella)
    I don't care if you use it once or twice when you want to emphasize a word the way YOU would say it. Idaho Cowboy just uses all caps for almost every (maybe even every) thread he submits, and randomly starts capitalized sections.

    It makes the voices in my head that read the forum yell at me, and I don't like being yelled at.
    If you are really hearing voices in your head, I would suggest you need to see a professional - either a medical doctor or a bartender, the doc might listen to you, might give you some meds, and will take your money, the bartender will listen to you and will talk back to you, will give you another kind of meds, and will take your money - a good and experienced honky tonk queenwould definitely be best though, she will listen to you, will give you a massage, will let you drink in peace and quiet, and will take you money. Choose the one that will best relax and satisfy you. Anyway have a nice day, ask yourself - should I really be carrying a gun ifI am really hearing voices in my head ....

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    ricecountyrefugee wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Open carry as a form of expressive conduct re non-gun rights issues does not help us in my opinion.

    And the name of this forum is OpenCarry.org ? Mike, I think that you're confused about what the Second Amendment says and I disagree with your statement above.
    Having known Mike for several years, and given the fact that Mike is one of the two founders of this website, I think you are confused about what you are talking about.

    As Hawkflyer once instructed me: proper order of fire is read, think, then type.

  23. #23
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Having known Mike for several years, and given the fact that Mike is one of the two founders of this website, I think you are confused about what you are talking about.

    As Hawkflyer once instructed me: proper order of fire is read, think, then type.

    Tomahawk,

    I disagreed with Mike, do you take care of him ?

    I don't know Hawkflyer, do you think I need instruction from him too ?




  24. #24
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    ricecountyrefugee wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    My personal view is that open carrying guns, let alone long guns, only as a way of expressing your opposition to health care policy proposals risks garbling the message and confusing the target audience.

    Open carry as a form of expressive conduct re non-gun rights issues does not help us in my opinion.

    And the name of this forum is OpenCarry.org ? Mike, I think that you're confused about what the Second Amendment says and I disagree with your statement above.
    I think Mike knows what the name of this forum is...

    But, why exactly do you agree with his opinion above, RCR?

    Can you articulate what it is that you think is wrong with it?

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    HankT wrote:
    ricecountyrefugee wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    My personal view is that open carrying guns, let alone long guns, only as a way of expressing your opposition to health care policy proposals risks garbling the message and confusing the target audience.

    Open carry as a form of expressive conduct re non-gun rights issues does not help us in my opinion.

    And the name of this forum is OpenCarry.org ? Mike, I think that you're confused about what the Second Amendment says and I disagree with your statement above.
    I think Mike knows what the name of this forum is...

    But, why exactly do you agree with his opinion above, RCR?

    Can you articulate what it is that you think is wrong with it?
    How come you're taking care of Mike too ?

    And I didn't "agree" with his opinion.

    Did you watch the YouTube video ? The guy with the AR didn't talk much about health care and I'm not either.

    "Keep and Bear Arms" means to some of us that we can bear those arms anyplace, anytime and also choose which arms we want to bear.

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