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Thread: Age to OC, help me i'm confused

  1. #1
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    Hello fellow gun enthusiasts, I am new to this forum and the Utah OC laws. One question I have is, what is the age requirement to OC "unloaded" in Utah? When I asked the BCI they said 18, but I have seen a lot of confusing things that scare me to where I don't want to OC until I hear from other OCers who obviously have knowledge about the laws. Also the BCI said that LEO have the right to detain me if I OC until they feel comfortable and see that I am not a threat to myself or others around me. Is that true? I want to OC, just not until I fully understand the laws. Also, if you are wondering, I am 18. Thanks.

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    You can OC when you are 18, as long as your gun is Utah unloaded. For a semi auto, you can have a full magazine, but nothing in the chamber. LEO's will talk to people OC'ing no matter what their age. From all the experiences I have read, about the only time an LEO will talk to you about it, or detain you, is if someone has called the police because "a man/woman has a gun". They usually aren't told that the person with the gun is just going about his/her business and hasn't used it in a hostile manner. I haven't run in to any LEO's while OC'ing, but it will probably happen sometime. You are totally fine to OC at 18. As long as you do it unloaded, and away from school zones, or other off limits areas, you will be fine.

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    mqondo wrote:
    You can OC when you are 18, as long as your gun is Utah unloaded. For a semi auto, you can have a full magazine, but nothing in the chamber. LEO's will talk to people OC'ing no matter what their age. From all the experiences I have read, about the only time an LEO will talk to you about it, or detain you, is if someone has called the police because "a man/woman has a gun". They usually aren't told that the person with the gun is just going about his/her business and hasn't used it in a hostile manner. I haven't run in to any LEO's while OC'ing, but it will probably happen sometime. You are totally fine to OC at 18. As long as you do it unloaded, and away from school zones, or other off limits areas, you will be fine.
    Just to add some detail... it's a 1000 foot perimeter around school zones that you cannot carry without a permit. There are a lot of schools. If you drive a car, you can transport it legally now without a permit openly or concealed, loaded or unloaded (76-10-504), but you will have to OC unloaded once you exit the vehicle and avoid school zones. A couple of other areas to avoid are post offices and federal buildings. You cannot even CC with a permit there.

    Secured areas of airports and court buildings are also off limits. The "secured" part is anywhere past the metal detectors. Everywhere else in the buildings and on the property outside is fair game. Hope that helps. Also, check out the utah codes and statutes starting at about 76-10-500 for greater insight into utah's gun laws relevant to CC and OC. Here is the link to the page where you can find it.

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/76_10.htm

    Good luck and welcome to the forum!:celebrate

    Kevin
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

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    tbeenysw wrote:
    Hello fellow gun enthusiasts, I am new to this forum and the Utah OC laws. One question I have is, what is the age requirement to OC "unloaded" in Utah? When I asked the BCI they said 18, but I have seen a lot of confusing things that scare me to where I don't want to OC until I hear from other OCers who obviously have knowledge about the laws. Also the BCI said that LEO have the right to detain me if I OC until they feel comfortable and see that I am not a threat to myself or others around me. Is that true? I want to OC, just not until I fully understand the laws. Also, if you are wondering, I am 18. Thanks.
    There is a lot of confusion of 18-20 Year old carry in Utah. So I will attempt to clear it up as someone who falls into that age group. I'll speak in regards to Utah Requirements and then highlight an important federal requirement.

    Anyone who may legally possess a firearm may carry an unloaded firearm in Utah. You are legally able to possess a handgun at age 18+

    Loaded is defined in 76-10-502:

    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
    Absent a Permit there are restrictions on where you can carry, namely school zones. Utah has a very broad definition of what a school zone is:

    School Zones According to 76-3-203.2:
    (1) (a) As used in this section and Section 76-10-505.5, "on or about school premises" means any of the following:
    (i) in a public or private elementary, secondary, or on the grounds of any of those schools;
    (ii) in a public or private vocational school or postsecondary institution or on the grounds of any of those schools or institutions;
    (iii) in those portions of any building, park, stadium, or other structure or grounds which are, at the time of the act, being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school or institution under Subsections (1)(a)(i) and (ii);
    (iv) in or on the grounds of a preschool or child-care facility; and
    (v) within 1,000 feet of any structure, facility, or grounds included in Subsections (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii), and (iv).

    So Utah's school zones include: Public and Private K-12, Public and Private College, Anywhere an activity is sponsored by or through a K-12 and College School. Preschool and Child-Care Facilities. And last but not least the arbitrary 1000 feet within all of the above.

    With that said you also have all the other places which are normally restricted from Permit holders as well...

    That being said Utah DOES accept a permit issued by any State or County as if it was it's own. Some states, such as Maine, will issue a permit at 18 to non residents. This is the route I chose to go when I was only 19.

    That being said however there is a Federal side to the coin that I will let you know about. It's called the Gun Free School Zone Act. It was originally enacted in 1990 but was overturned by the Supreme Court as "The possession ofa gun in a local school zone is in no sense an economic activity that might, through repetition elsewhere, substantially affect any sort of interstate commerce. Respondent was a local student at a local school; there is no indication that he had recently moved in interstate commerce, and there is no requirement that his possession of the firearm have any concrete tie to interstate commerce." (United States vs. Lopez 1995)

    Following the supreme court decision congress ignored the main finding and focused on the highlighted phrase requiring the prosecution to prove the firearm involved has moved through or affects interstate commerce. They then re-enacted the GFSZA in 1996 adding that phrase. It reads as follows:
    2(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the
    individual or an employer of the individual;
    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
    How does this apply to you? Well if you decide that since you are not 21 and can't receive a Utah permit and therefore receive a Maine permit Utah exempts you from it's school zone laws, however you will not be exempt from this law.

    Federal Law deals with K-12 schools and requires a permit from the state the school resides. There are also no exceptions to car carry unless it's unloaded and in a locked container.

    Now given that I'm not saying you should safely ignore this law nor will I state on a public forum I ignore this law. I will however point out the following:

    1. I'm not aware of anyone ever being prosecuted under this law, including individuals who have shot up schools.

    2. Since congress failed to meet the Supreme Court's main finding that carrying guns around schools can in no way be regulated under the interstate commerce clause this is still likely an unconstitutional law. Explaining why they choose not to test it.

    3. The stipulation about a permit needing to be from the same state the school zone resides opens up it's own can of worms. Afterall, by Utah recognizing all other permits isn't that the same as Utah Effectively licensing you?

    Take those as you will.



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    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    mqondo wrote:
    You can OC when you are 18, as long as your gun is Utah unloaded. For a semi auto, you can have a full magazine, but nothing in the chamber. LEO's will talk to people OC'ing no matter what their age. From all the experiences I have read, about the only time an LEO will talk to you about it, or detain you, is if someone has called the police because "a man/woman has a gun". They usually aren't told that the person with the gun is just going about his/her business and hasn't used it in a hostile manner. I haven't run in to any LEO's while OC'ing, but it will probably happen sometime. You are totally fine to OC at 18. As long as you do it unloaded, and away from school zones, or other off limits areas, you will be fine.
    Just to add some detail... it's a 1000 foot perimeter around school zones that you cannot carry without a permit. There are a lot of schools. If you drive a car, you can transport it legally now without a permit openly or concealed, loaded or unloaded (76-10-504), but you will have to OC unloaded once you exit the vehicle and avoid school zones. A couple of other areas to avoid are post offices and federal buildings. You cannot even CC with a permit there.

    Secured areas of airports and court buildings are also off limits. The "secured" part is anywhere past the metal detectors. Everywhere else in the buildings and on the property outside is fair game. Hope that helps. Also, check out the utah codes and statutes starting at about 76-10-500 for greater insight into utah's gun laws relevant to CC and OC. Here is the link to the page where you can find it.

    http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/76_10.htm

    Good luck and welcome to the forum!:celebrate

    Kevin
    +1 also, you can opencarry at airports, just dont go past a metal detector sgt. jensen and i have done it a few times. here in payson there are only a few schools, so its pretty easy to navigate around here without much trouble (theyll still stop ya and check if its loaded etc)

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    I forget, does the new in-car law cover school zones? (can a non-permit holder drive through the school zone, or is it still off-limits?)

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    ScottyT wrote:
    I forget, does the new in-car law cover school zones? (can a non-permit holder drive through the school zone, or is it still off-limits?)
    ScottyT, vehicles are exempt from Utah's school zone laws. However, they are not exempt from the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act (GFSZA) For a non-permit holder (ornon-utah permit holder)to comply with both the gun must be unloaded and locked in a secure case.

    See my above post regarding this GFSZA garbage for a more in depth explanation.

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    Okay, so just to be sure. I can, (without out a permit and unloaded) OC in my car and drive through a school zone without getting in trouble? Or do I have to unholster and put it in a secure case while driving through? I saw someone elses comment on this and it confused me.

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    tbeenysw wrote:
    Okay, so just to be sure. I can, (without out a permit and unloaded) OC in my car and drive through a school zone without getting in trouble? Or do I have to unholster and put it in a secure case while driving through? I saw someone elses comment on this and it confused me.
    According to Utah law, without a permit, you may carry ahandgunhowever you want to. Loaded, Unloaded, Concealed, Open, etc. in a car.

    However, according to Federal Law, unless you have a Utah Firearms Permit you must have the gun unloaded,locked, and securely encased while traveling through a K-12 School Zone.

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    tbeenysw wrote:
    Okay, so just to be sure. I can, (without out a permit and unloaded) OC in my car and drive through a school zone without getting in trouble? Or do I have to unholster and put it in a secure case while driving through? I saw someone elses comment on this and it confused me.
    You may carry a handgun in you vehicle however you please. Open, concealed, loaded, unlaoded, even in a school zone. Under Utah law, you are covered as long as the firearm remains inside the vehicle while in the school zone.

    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.

    Federal law, on the other hand, requires that your firearm be unloaded, and in a locked container if you are in a school zone. Federal law defines a school as K-12, so no need to worry about colleges. The Federal law is not currently enforced, so you should decide if civil disobedience is in your best interest or not.

    Of course, if you have a permit from any State, you do not need to worry about these restrictions per Utah law. Federal law requires a Utah issued permit if you want to be exempt from the Federal law in a Utah K-12 school.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Nuttycomputer wrote:
    According to Utah law, without a permit, you may carry ahandgunhowever you want to. Loaded, Unloaded, Concealed, Open, etc. in a car.

    However, according to Federal Law, unless you have a Utah Firearms Permit you must have the gun unloaded,locked, and securely encased while traveling through a K-12 School Zone.
    SHEESH! You posted as I was proofreading mine! :P
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Nuttycomputer wrote:
    According to Utah law, without a permit, you may carry ahandgunhowever you want to. Loaded, Unloaded, Concealed, Open, etc. in a car.

    However, according to Federal Law, unless you have a Utah Firearms Permit you must have the gun unloaded,locked, and securely encased while traveling through a K-12 School Zone.
    SHEESH! You posted as I was proofreading mine! :P
    It's my goal to beat out your post SGT Jensen That or I just have nothing better to do during the day... hmmm....

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