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Thread: Lima Open Carry Incident - Case Dismissed

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    I recently purchased a handgun for personal protection and for the protection of my family. Because of taking care of my elderly mother at home I am unable to work now. We try to get along on the meager earnings from my wife's job and my mother's Social Security. It was a chore to save the money to purchase the handgun in question. With some of the crime in the area recently I felt that it was a good idea to go ahead and buy the gun. I have not yet had a chance to take a CCW class in order to get my Concealed Carry License. I plan to get into a class in early September. I have been using my right as a law abiding citizen to openly carry the firearm when out walking which, due to circumstances here at home taking care of my elderly mother, I don't get to do very often. Only one neighbor has said anything and he isn't against it, he just had questions about the legalities and I believe that I was able to satisfy his curiosity.

    Before I purchased the gun I did a lot of research in an attempt to learn all that I could about the gun laws in Ohio and about my rights and responsibilities. Because of that research I knew how to act and what to do and not do even before I purchased the gun.

    On the evening of Tuesday August 4th we, as a family, decided to walk to the Town Square here in Lima for the National Night Out festivities. There were 5 of us - my 84 year old mother in her wheelchair, my 4 year old son, my 9 year old daughter, my wife, and myself. I openly carried my firearm in a holster on my right side and made sure that it was never covered or hidden in any way. I made sure that there was nothing in my right pants pocket that I would need to reach for so my hands would not need to go near the gun. We made the walk to the festivities with no problem. While we were in the Square I passed numerous law enforcement officers from both the Lima Police Department and the Allen County Sheriff’s Department. Some were in uniform and some just had dark blue/black shirts that said Police on them. I even stood in line to get food beside at least 2 officers. We were there for about one and a half hours before beginning the walk home. Not one word was said about my firearm by anyone. I can't think of any reason why at least some did not see it, they had to see it. The gun was in plain sight. We left the square and walked home without incident.

    I have read that many law enforcement officers in Ohio frown on open carry of a firearm and will stop and question and even detain and at least temporarily disarm anyone that they see openly carrying a gun, especially if there has been a "person with a gun" complaint. Based on the experience from the trip to and from The National Night Out I assumed that the officers here in Lima must be informed and educated as to our rights.

    Saturday evening August 8th I decided to take my 9 year old daughter to the Lima Square Fair for the headliner concert and fireworks as I do every year. Every year we walk from home to the square. Since I now own a gun for protection I decided to once again openly carry it for the trip as I did on August 4th. Based on the experience on the 4th I did not anticipate any problem, I assumed that the local law enforcement officers were educated as to our right to openly carry a firearm and would leave me alone.

    Before we left I decided to call the Lima Police Department and talked to the desk officer to make sure that I would not be stopped by any of their officers. The desk officer told me that he would not recommend carrying the gun because of the crowd but agreed that it is my right. He could not guarantee that I would not be stopped by any of their officers. I informed him that we never go into the crowd anyhow, we hang out at the back along South Main St. where my daughter can find something to stand or sit on to see better, so that should not be a problem. I told the desk officer that when we got to the square I would try to locate an officer there and inform him that I was openly carrying a gun in order to try and be sure that there would be no problems. I was not concerned about safety in the square, just the trip from home to the square and then back home.

    My daughter and I left home shortly after 9 PM and walked up South Main Street to the square. We arrived with no problem. It is about a 7 block walk from home to the square. As we always do we stayed at the back of the crowd along South Main St. and listened to the music and watched the people in front of us. When we did move around I held her hand so we would not be separated since the crowd was larger than in years past and spilling out of the square onto South Main St. I watched for any law enforcement officers and saw none. I also kept a close watch for anyone that seemed to be alarmed that I had a gun at my side, I saw no indication of it. I never saw one person panic or even hardly give my daughter and I a second look. Of course that doesn’t mean that no one did, I just didn’t see it.

    I was not keeping track of the time but at about 9:45 or so, a guess, we walked down Main St. to a booth that was selling sand art craft bottles for the children. As we walked around I noticed that someone, a female, talking frantically on a cell phone and with a Square Fair workers tag around her neck was very obviously following us. She followed us to the booth and stayed close enough that I could hear her voice over the loud music but could not hear what she was saying. I pretty much ignored her. As my daughter and I were looking at the sand art bottles I noticed that the female started jumping up and down and yelling in a very loud and excited voice "he's over here - he's over here" and she was pointing at me. I knew that I was not doing anything illegal or wrong so I turned back around and was leaning over and talking to my daughter about what she wanted me to buy for her.

    As I was talking to my daughter someone grabbed me from behind and pulled me upright. He yelled in my ear "do you have a gun on you?" I replied "yes I do, right here" and looked down at my firearm, and was careful to keep my hands in front of me and nowhere near the gun. I also said "it is perfectly legal in Ohio to openly carry a gun so I'm not doing anything illegal at all and I know my rights". I then turned to look at him and saw that he was a Lima PD officer. Since I had already read up on the laws in Ohio and know my rights I was fairly calm and did not even think to try and really argue with the officer. I assumed that he was informed as to the law and our rights and since I was not doing anything illegal he would leave us alone and move on.

    About that time I realized that there were at least 3 officers, maybe more, around me and my daughter. About that time my daughter got really upset and started crying loudly and screaming "daddy what's wrong". One of the officers yanked the gun with the holster from my belt and waistband and another officer grabbed my arms and pulled them behind me and put handcuffs on. By then my daughter was hysterical, naturally. I leaned over and tried to comfort her but it didn't help. At some point the lady from Square Fair came over close to us and I told her "It is legal to openly carry a gun in Ohio and I have broken no law or done anything illegal”. She looked at me and my daughter and said "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry".

    The LPD officers marched me and my daughter from the 100 block of South Main St. around the Southeast side of the square to Market St. through the crowd and into the Police Station. During the walk my daughter held tightly to my left arm and kept crying hysterically and saying "daddy what are they doing". I kept telling her that we had not broken any laws or done anything illegal and that they will have to let us go. The lady from Square Fair kept saying "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry".

    Things got a little fuzzy during all of this but I do clearly remember at least one of the LPD officers saying several times that they had "hundreds of complaints of a man with a gun" and considering where we were, outside of the main body of people, I knew for a fact that it most likely wasn’t true. I decided that it would not be a good idea to say that to any of the officers.

    When we got to the Police Station the officers walked my daughter and I to a holding cell. All of the officers and the female from Square Fair were either in the cell or just outside of the door. My daughter never stopped crying. The female from Square Fair kept saying "I'm so sorry".

    The officers eventually decided that my daughter could not stay with me and had to go. They ended up using my cell phone to call my wife at home. I knew that she could not leave because someone has to be with my elderly mother at all times. The female from Square Fair said that she would take my daughter home and I reluctantly agreed. One of the officers took the handcuffs off of me and let me give my daughter a hug and a kiss before she left.

    My daughter did arrive home safely thanks to the lady from Square Fair. She told my daughter that she "was really brave" and gave her a 20 dollar bill.

    At one point the desk officer came into the room and remembered me calling earlier.

    I do not see a need to go into great detail from here on because I'm sure you know how it goes. One of the officers had me remove everything from my pockets, remove my shoes and belt, and remove my hat and logged it all on an inventory sheet.

    That same officer then proceeded to go off on a long rant about how I was just trying to make a statement and that they "had hundreds of complaints" and that I was must be a stupid moron for thinking that I had any right to carry a gun there, but not in those exact words. I honestly do not remember his exact words, just the gist of it all. When he was finally finished with his tirade I calmly told him that I felt no need to make a statement, I was simply doing what I am legally allowed to do in Ohio and felt that I have committed no crime at all. The officer left after I signed the inventory of my belongings, my gun - ammo - and holster were not on the inventory but I did not think to question that then.

    I sat in the holding cell for a while, not sure just how long, then the officer came back in and said that I could go. He returned my belongings minus the gun, ammo, and holster. I asked him for a receipt for the rest of my property and was told that I would not get one because it had been entered as evidence. I told the officer that I really wanted a receipt for the rest of my property and he said that I definitely would not get one but that the property will be returned after I go to court on 8-14-2009.

    The charge was 2917.31 "INDUCING PANIC.

    I had to sign an OR bond for 2000 dollars and was released to go home. As I walked out of the Police Station I looked at my watch and it was about 10:55 PM. I walked home and arrived at about 11:05 PM.

    After I got settled down at home I posted mention of the incident on the forum at OFCC then typed a detailed account in a letter to Matt Huffman, my district Representative in Columbus.

    Over the next 4 days I received plenty of offers to help and found out that some people were making enquires on my behalf in the background. Some of those who were involved include charben, dsk, bb62, from OFCC and maybe more that I am unaware of. I also learned that opencarry.org was also involved in some way.

    On Wednesday August 12th I received a phone call from Heather Mann at Matt Huffman’s office. Heather seemed to be knowledgeable on the topic of Ohio gun law and was very helpful and seemed to be genuinely concerned. She had already talked to Jim Irvine at Buckeye Firearms about the case and referred me to him. I called Jim and we discussed the case and he referred me to Ken Hanson as an attorney that may be interested in the case.

    As soon as I was finished talking with Jim I called Ken Hanson and I filled him in on the case from my point of view. Ken promised to look into it and call me back as soon as he knew anything.

    The next day, Thursday August 13th Ken called to let me know that he would take the case. After talking with Ken I received a message from Dave Kessler, an attorney, asking me to call him. I called Dave and he said that he had talked to the City Attorney, Tony Geiger, here in Lima and that he was willing to dismiss the case. I immediately called Ken back to let him know what Dave had just told me.

    Ken Hanson contacted the City Attorney and worked out an agreement that basically says that in exchange for them dismissing the case I will not take any action against the City of Lima or Square Fair Lima. Also the City Attorney will be provided with training material covering gun law and open carry in Ohio and that material will be used to provide training for the officers in the Lima Police Department in an effort to prevent any further incidents like this one. That sounded good to me considering that I have more than just myself to consider so I agreed.

    Yesterday, August 20th I walked to the City Attorney’s office and handed him the signed and notarized agreement and he returned my gun, holster, and ammunition. When I left the office I openly carried my gun on my hip as I walked home. I passed 2 Lima PD officers in their cars but arrived home without incident. I have no way of knowing if they even saw the gun.

    As of now I have not seen the police report, the complaint filed with the City Attorney, or anything else in the case. I do hope to get a copy of everything at some point.

    And now you have the whole story from my perspective. Am I completely happy? No, I would be less than truthful if I said that I am. However, considering the circumstances here at home with my mother, I am happy with the outcome.

    I feel no anger, animosity, or bitterness toward any of the Lima PD officers who were involved in the incident. I am willing, at this point, to assume that they just were unaware that I was not really breaking any law or guilty of any criminal act by openly carrying a gun for the protection of my daughter and I. I am also not angry with the lady from Square Fair since I am sure that she was as unaware of the law as most of the rest of the population.

    I feel, from my point of view, that the City Attorney – Tony Geiger acted in the best interest of all involved and made the right decision in this case. As far as I am concerned he earned my respect. I hope Ken Hanson doesn’t mind but here is a quote from him “tony displayed infinitely more professionalism than I deal with in some places. Cleveland , for instance. “Sue us, we don’t care. It isn’t our money.”

    Let me make one thing clear, I do not advocate open carry of a firearm as general practice. I am carrying mine openly until I take the CCW class and receive my Concealed Handgun License. Then I will probably keep it covered most of the time. However it is our right to openly carry a firearm and I am fully supportive of anyone who chooses to do so. It is past time for all of the law enforcement officers in Ohio to learn that it is a right and leave open carriers alone.

    I’m sure that there will be plenty of Monday morning quarterbacking now but you have the facts from my perspective and it really doesn’t much matter how anyone else would have reacted or how they would have handled things after they were released from custody. Discussion is a healthy thing and perhaps we will all learn a few things from this incident.

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    w8new wrote:
    SNIP Ken Hanson contacted the City Attorney and worked out an agreement that basically says that in exchange for them dismissing the case I will not take any action against the City of Lima or Square Fair Lima.
    Welcome to the forum.

    I'm glad you're satisfied. I'm not sure why you are telling us all this, since you don't plan to OC once you have your permit.

    I'm sorry you caved in and agreed to waive your right to redress. I am nota lawyer, but it sounds like a false arrest to me. If people were running, screaming. squealing tires to get away from you, I could see an induced panic. Just walking down the sidewalk with a youngdaughter while others go about their evening in yourvicinity.

    Besides, OC is legal in OH, no?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    w8new wrote:
    SNIP Ken Hanson contacted the City Attorney and worked out an agreement that basically says that in exchange for them dismissing the case I will not take any action against the City of Lima or Square Fair Lima.
    Welcome to the forum.

    I'm glad you're satisfied. I'm not sure why you are telling us all this, since you don't plan to OC once you have your permit.

    I'm sorry you caved in and agreed to waive your right to redress. I am nota lawyer, but it sounds like a false arrest to me. If people were running, screaming. squealing tires to get away from you, I could see an induced panic. Just walking down the sidewalk with a youngdaughter while others go about their evening in yourvicinity.

    Besides, OC is legal in OH, no?
    I put the story here for 2 main reasons.

    First, as I mentioned in the story, there were some folks from here that became involved even though I don't know who they are. I felt that they would be interested in the outcome.

    Second, as I mentioned in the story " it is our right to openly carry a firearm and I am fully supportive of anyone who chooses to do so" therefore I felt that others would be interested.

    Lastly, you said "I'm sorry you caved in and agreed to waive your right to redress". - That would not have happened if things were different here at home right now. I have more than just myself to consider. There would have been hearings and court appearances that I would have to attend which would mean finding someone to be here to take care of things. There is no way to know how long it would drag on or if it would be settled quickly. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

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    Citizen wrote:
    I'm not sure why you are telling us all this, since you don't plan to OC once you have your permit.
    What seems to be the problem with his post, Citizen? It's perfectly in compliance with the Forum Rules:

    2) Since we are a site dedicated to open carry,firearms and gun rights, all posts should relate substantially to one of these topics, even if your comments pertain mainly to freedom andliberty.




    Citizen wrote:
    I'm sorry you caved in and agreed to waive your right to redress. I am nota lawyer, but it sounds like a false arrest to me. If people were running, screaming. squealing tires to get away from you, I could see an induced panic. Just walking down the sidewalk with a youngdaughter while others go about their evening in yourvicinity.

    Besides, OC is legal in OH, no?
    Wow, he "caved in" incorrectly? Not up to your standards, Citizen? But that's inconsistent, since you CC to avoid OC hassles also.

    Certain rules for others. Different rules for Citizen... <shakes head>

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    w8new wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    w8new wrote:
    SNIP Ken Hanson contacted the City Attorney and worked out an agreement that basically says that in exchange for them dismissing the case I will not take any action against the City of Lima or Square Fair Lima.
    Welcome to the forum.

    I'm glad you're satisfied. I'm not sure why you are telling us all this, since you don't plan to OC once you have your permit.

    I'm sorry you caved in and agreed to waive your right to redress. I am nota lawyer, but it sounds like a false arrest to me. If people were running, screaming. squealing tires to get away from you, I could see an induced panic. Just walking down the sidewalk with a youngdaughter while others go about their evening in yourvicinity.

    Besides, OC is legal in OH, no?
    I put the story here for 2 main reasons.

    First, as I mentioned in the story, there were some folks from here that became involved even though I don't know who they are. I felt that they would be interested in the outcome.

    Second, as I mentioned in the story " it is our right to openly carry a firearm and I am fully supportive of anyone who chooses to do so" therefore I felt that others would be interested.

    Lastly, you said "I'm sorry you caved in and agreed to waive your right to redress". - That would not have happened if things were different here at home right now. I have more than just myself to consider. There would have been hearings and court appearances that I would have to attend which would mean finding someone to be here to take care of things. There is no way to know how long it would drag on or if it would be settled quickly. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.
    Got it. Thanks for clearing up what should have been obvious. I apologize.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Ken Hanson contacted the City Attorney and worked out an agreement that basically says that in exchange for them dismissing the case I will not take any action against the City of Lima or Square Fair Lima. Also the City Attorney will be provided with training material covering gun law and open carry in Ohio and that material will be used to provide training for the officers in the Lima Police Department in an effort to prevent any further incidents like this one. That sounded good to me considering that I have more than just myself to consider so I agreed.

    Yesterday, August 20th I walked to the City Attorney’s office and handed him the signed and notarized agreement and he returned my gun, holster, and ammunition. When I left the office I openly carried my gun on my hip as I walked home. I passed 2 Lima PD officers in their cars but arrived home without incident. I have no way of knowing if they even saw the gun.


    My god, you are weak. Seriously. You are a big boy now and you have to stand up for yourself. The city atty isn't going to provide anything. They are going to have a laugh at your expense and probably do it to someone else because you let them get away with it.

    I feel no anger, animosity, or bitterness toward any of the Lima PD officers who were involved in the incident. I am willing, at this point, to assume that they just were unaware that I was not really breaking any law or guilty of any criminal act by openly carrying a gun for the protection of my daughter and I. I am also not angry with the lady from Square Fair since I am sure that she was as unaware of the law as most of the rest of the population.

    I'm not going to tell you how to feel, but their being unaware shouldn't infringe on your right to walk down the street unmolested, but apparently, you are happy and fine being molested and manhandled. If you are just going to let everyone walk all over you, why do you carry a gun?



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    you should not give up your/our rights because its more convieniant! what they did to you, its terribly out of line. now its too late to stand up to the thugs that broke the law! i think the horror they put your daughter through would have been enough to convince you to man up. they would probably have dropped the charges anyway! and you let the woman that called it in, that went ballistic, take your daughter home. the only call for a MWAG, and she was all sorry, sorry! you were in the right. every time a LAC lays down for thiss treatment by the cops, it emboldens them to do it some more. they face no consequence for thier actions!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    I suggest that you boneheads who are quick to shootyour mouth off about the need for the fellow to man-up, etc. read the man's story CLOSELY (for the first time).

    IF you do so, you will find that he is unemployed, he has an elderly mother he is taking care of, and has young children at home that HE is responsible for while his wife is working. In short, a man who has plenty of responsiblity, and little money.

    Read between the lines and you will see a fellow who did not decide to open carry to exercise the right to do so, but did so because he didn't have the money for a concealed carry course yet.

    He wasn't open carrying to make a point, and he wanted to make double sure he was legal- because if he considered himself an activisthe surely would have been better prepared for the eventuality of what happened. Yes, he could be criticized for not being prepared for what might have happened, but maybe, just maybe, he thought that he could actually trust those in power.

    No doubt he has been rudely awakened.

    I've talked with the man, as a matter of fact, I talked with him a few times between the time of the arrest and the time of the dropping of the charges. Rather than rip him apart for his perceived or actual failings, wouldn't it be better if we use this incident as a catalyst to ensure that officials who screw over people feel pain for doing so?

    Read some of the posts where this incident was first posted about (on Ohioans for Concealed Carry forums), and decide that you/we need to put the authorities on notice 1) this is not legal, and 2) there will be hell to pay if they decide to do this to someone else.

    http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=34691

    I'd start with your state's attorney general - write him/her yourself, contact your state RKBA organization, citing this incident as an example of rights which MUST be stood up for, even if your state organization has "concealed carry" in its name.

    /rant off

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    he called the cops on himself!! if he was so insecure about his plans, he should have ask the cops to escort him to the event!! he was warned by the cops that he shouldnt OC, but did it anyway, and he took his daughter into the fray!! its too bad he got screwed. its too bad he caved. he should have spent his meager dollars on taking care of his family/groceries/rent/bills, not a gun!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
    he called the cops on himself!! if he was so insecure about his plans, he should have ask the cops to escort him to the event!! he was warned by the cops that he shouldnt OC, but did it anyway, and he took his daughter into the fray!! its too bad he got screwed. its too bad he caved. he should have spent his meager dollars on taking care of his family/groceries/rent/bills, not a gun!
    NO, he wasn't warned. Read more carefully.

    "The desk officer told me that he would not recommend carrying the gun because of the crowd but agreed that it is my right"

    Not recommending something is not the same as being warned that you mightbe maliciously charged with a bogus crime for exercising what the desk officer acknowledged as a right.

    Someone with a handle like 2, 4, 5 A defender out to recognize that.

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    w8new wrote:
    Ken Hanson contacted the City Attorney and worked out an agreement that basically says that in exchange for them dismissing the case I will not take any action against the City of Lima or Square Fair Lima. Also the City Attorney will be provided with training material covering gun law and open carry in Ohio and that material will be used to provide training for the officers in the Lima Police Department in an effort to prevent any further incidents like this one. That sounded good to me considering that I have more than just myself to consider so I agreed.
    For those of you whining about how he gave up his rights, he did actually accomplish something significant here. He has a signed legal agreement showing that the Lima Police will be trained on the legality of Open Carry in Ohio.

    What this does is eliminate"qualified immunity" because they can't say that they didn't know that OC wan't illegal. So now, if something like this happens again, there will be legal recourse available that has TEETH to it that will bite the city AND the individual officers right in the wallet.

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    I understand why you made the decision to sign the agreement to not hold the city of Lima financially liable...

    that said, the city attorney knew that they had no case against you--because if they had a case against you that would have got you convicted--they would not have offered any deal. They simply knew they were about to lose a LOT of money in a lawsuit against the police, and they wanted to avoid that.

    One thing is certain--the police learned absolutely nothing from this, except that they now will be even bolder in mistreating law abiding gun owners--because they now have reason to believe that they can bully anyone they want, mistreat anyone they want, and all they have to do is offer to drop charges in exchange for not suing. The police regularly use intimidation to get their way, even when it is illegal, or morally or ethically wrong. They know--intimidation works.

    The city did not do you any favors--even though that is what they wanted you to believe.

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    OR bond for $2,000? What can that even mean? Being released on your own recognizance just means you sign a promise to return for all future hearings, etc - no valuable security/collateral/consideration involved. I'm missing something.

    -ljp

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    NO, he wasn't warned. Read more carefully.
    The desk officer told me that he would not recommend carrying the gun because of the crowd but agreed that it is my right. i wouldnt excersize my right, with my kid!
    For those of you whining about how he gave up his rights, he did actually accomplish something significant here. He has a signed legal agreement showing that the Lima Police will be trained on the legality of Open Carry in Ohio.
    What this does is eliminate"qualified immunity" because they can't say that they didn't know that OC wan't illegal. the cops had already givenup qualified immunity by admitting that it was his right to OC. this is a fundimental 2 A right, and they all know it! the cop on the phone told him it was his right!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  15. #15
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    Legba wrote:
    OR bond for $2,000? What can that even mean? Being released on your own recognizance just means you sign a promise to return for all future hearings, etc - no valuable security/collateral/consideration involved. I'm missing something.

    -ljp
    yea, that slipped by me as i wondered, what is OR? so i just read somemore and forgot about it. what is OR? its not PR, personable recognisence. promise to appear, cause we trust you. where did the 2000$ come from, this poor guy, with no money, that buys a gun, takes his daughter to the slaughter. im conflicted, is this real?
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  16. #16
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    Yeah, it's the same thing as "PR" - just called "OR/own recognizance" (as in "released on your own recognizance") here. Might be an Ohio-specific usage. A common minor variants is "COR = conditional OR" (subject to certain restrictions like drug testing or a curfew,but still not required to put up any money/property/valuable stuff). I got OR bond for a 4th degree felony charge for my last fling through the courts, so if he had to post $2,000 worth of anything for a misdemeanor, that's excessive.

    -ljp

  17. #17
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    Guess we need an open carry walk in Lima like the one we at OFCC did in Northwood Ohio last year. Large numbers of toters and publicity are the only thing, short of successful criminal prosecution* against such a community, that will make them stop this harassment, in my opinion anyhow.

    *Civil prosecution sounds like a workable alternative, but cities just make a payoff with their constituents' money, up the taxes in some fashion to recover the loss, and go forward as if nothing ever happened, or at least that's how it usually seems to be.

  18. #18
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    gutshot wrote:
    ...Two other things:...

    2. Your mother could have benefited tremendously from the care you could have provided for her with the money you would have won in a law suit if you had not been so selfish and taken the easy way out.
    You sicken me.

  19. #19
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    Over the next 4 days I received plenty of offers to help and found out that some people were making enquires on my behalf in the background. Some of those who were involved include charben, dsk, bb62, from OFCC and maybe more that I am unaware of. I also learned that opencarry.org was also involved in some way.
    I forgot to mention one important name here and that is Color of Law who was a very big source of support and help. I hope that I'm not missing anyone else.

  20. #20
    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Brian D. wrote:
    Guess we need an open carry walk in Lima like the one we at OFCC did in Northwood Ohio last year. Large numbers of toters and publicity are the only thing, short of successful criminal prosecution* against such a community, that will make them stop this harassment, in my opinion anyhow.

    *Civil prosecution sounds like a workable alternative, but cities just make a payoff with their constituents' money, up the taxes in some fashion to recover the loss, and go forward as if nothing ever happened, or at least that's how it usually seems to be.
    I'm always up for a walk, but I'm not sure how effective it would be in this instance.

    I think what we need is for Ohio's gun organizations to decide that criminal and/or civil suits are going to follow the next bogus DC or IP citation - rather than simply settlingfor dismissal of the charges.

  21. #21
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    BB62 wrote:
    gutshot wrote:
    ...Two other things:...

    2. Your mother could have benefited tremendously from the care you could have provided for her with the money you would have won in a law suit if you had not been so selfish and taken the easy way out.
    You sicken me.
    Agreed, all this would do was make it worst for other citizens who rely on the police. I totally agree what happened was horrible, but there are better ways to get policy's changed then hitting their pocket books. If we have no other way of getting things changed then, YES hit them hard in the pocket book. When they have to pay all that money out, they have to fire police and other employs to make up for the loss of income. In turn other cops who may believe like we do or had nothing to do with the arrest now have to find other work of no fault of their own. It may be the fastest way for policy change, but it is the worst way to keep a city safe in a time were they barley have money to pay for police and other necessary jobs.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

  22. #22
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    Agreed, all this would do was make it worst for other citizens who rely on the police. I totally agree what happened was horrible, but there are better ways to get policy's changed then hitting their pocket books. If we have no other way of getting things changed then, YES hit them hard in the pocket book. When they have to pay all that money out, they have to fire police and other employs to make up for the loss of income. In turn other cops who may believe like we do or had nothing to do with the arrest now have to find other work of no fault of their own. It may be the fastest way for policy change, but it is the worst way to keep a city safe in a time were they barley have money to pay for police and other necessary jobs.
    I did in fact consider this angle and mentioned it to a few of those who helped out. But it did not figure in the decision to accept the offer of dismissing the case.

  23. #23
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    Ummmm.... It is illegal to drop charges as long as you promise not to sue. That's not legal and it is a violation of your civil rights, all that aside the agreement didn't say that you can't sue the cops on a personal level. If you don't have the means to sue, have OFCC set up a donation fund. I'll donate. if you are not willing to do that then they will not have learned their lesson. I guess ignorance of the law is ok if you are a cop.

  24. #24
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    If Jared is right (and I think he is) then go after the officers individually. I'll pony up and put my money where my mouth is provided there's a fund set up for this to help out. Had I been aware of a fund for your defense I'd have donated to it prior to the dismissal of charges.

    This crap has got to end even if it means that some cop who thinks he's above the law finds himself scraping up funds like a pauper to support himself and family for the rest of his life while he pays off a civil judgement to a citizen he's wronged.

  25. #25
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    I wonder if the employees of Hi point are allowed to carry for work purposes then you guys to start a march in Lima since im pretty sure thats where their company is located.
    Theres Power in Numbers
    Could prove really positive.

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