w8new
Regular Member
imported post
I recently purchased a handgun for personal protection and for the protection of my family. Because of taking care of my elderly mother at home I am unable to work now. We try to get along on the meager earnings from my wife's job and my mother's Social Security. It was a chore to save the money to purchase the handgun in question. With some of the crime in the area recently I felt that it was a good idea to go ahead and buy the gun. I have not yet had a chance to take a CCW class in order to get my Concealed Carry License. I plan to get into a class in early September. I have been using my right as a law abiding citizen to openly carry the firearm when out walking which, due to circumstances here at home taking care of my elderly mother, I don't get to do very often. Only one neighbor has said anything and he isn't against it, he just had questions about the legalities and I believe that I was able to satisfy his curiosity.
Before I purchased the gun I did a lot of research in an attempt to learn all that I could about the gun laws in Ohio and about my rights and responsibilities. Because of that research I knew how to act and what to do and not do even before I purchased the gun.
On the evening of Tuesday August 4th we, as a family, decided to walk to the Town Square here in Lima for the National Night Out festivities. There were 5 of us - my 84 year old mother in her wheelchair, my 4 year old son, my 9 year old daughter, my wife, and myself. I openly carried my firearm in a holster on my right side and made sure that it was never covered or hidden in any way. I made sure that there was nothing in my right pants pocket that I would need to reach for so my hands would not need to go near the gun. We made the walk to the festivities with no problem. While we were in the Square I passed numerous law enforcement officers from both the Lima Police Department and the Allen County Sheriff’s Department. Some were in uniform and some just had dark blue/black shirts that said Police on them. I even stood in line to get food beside at least 2 officers. We were there for about one and a half hours before beginning the walk home. Not one word was said about my firearm by anyone. I can't think of any reason why at least some did not see it, they had to see it. The gun was in plain sight. We left the square and walked home without incident.
I have read that many law enforcement officers in Ohio frown on open carry of a firearm and will stop and question and even detain and at least temporarily disarm anyone that they see openly carrying a gun, especially if there has been a "person with a gun" complaint. Based on the experience from the trip to and from The National Night Out I assumed that the officers here in Lima must be informed and educated as to our rights.
Saturday evening August 8th I decided to take my 9 year old daughter to the Lima Square Fair for the headliner concert and fireworks as I do every year. Every year we walk from home to the square. Since I now own a gun for protection I decided to once again openly carry it for the trip as I did on August 4th. Based on the experience on the 4th I did not anticipate any problem, I assumed that the local law enforcement officers were educated as to our right to openly carry a firearm and would leave me alone.
Before we left I decided to call the Lima Police Department and talked to the desk officer to make sure that I would not be stopped by any of their officers. The desk officer told me that he would not recommend carrying the gun because of the crowd but agreed that it is my right. He could not guarantee that I would not be stopped by any of their officers. I informed him that we never go into the crowd anyhow, we hang out at the back along South Main St. where my daughter can find something to stand or sit on to see better, so that should not be a problem. I told the desk officer that when we got to the square I would try to locate an officer there and inform him that I was openly carrying a gun in order to try and be sure that there would be no problems. I was not concerned about safety in the square, just the trip from home to the square and then back home.
My daughter and I left home shortly after 9 PM and walked up South Main Street to the square. We arrived with no problem. It is about a 7 block walk from home to the square. As we always do we stayed at the back of the crowd along South Main St. and listened to the music and watched the people in front of us. When we did move around I held her hand so we would not be separated since the crowd was larger than in years past and spilling out of the square onto South Main St. I watched for any law enforcement officers and saw none. I also kept a close watch for anyone that seemed to be alarmed that I had a gun at my side, I saw no indication of it. I never saw one person panic or even hardly give my daughter and I a second look. Of course that doesn’t mean that no one did, I just didn’t see it.
I was not keeping track of the time but at about 9:45 or so, a guess, we walked down Main St. to a booth that was selling sand art craft bottles for the children. As we walked around I noticed that someone, a female, talking frantically on a cell phone and with a Square Fair workers tag around her neck was very obviously following us. She followed us to the booth and stayed close enough that I could hear her voice over the loud music but could not hear what she was saying. I pretty much ignored her. As my daughter and I were looking at the sand art bottles I noticed that the female started jumping up and down and yelling in a very loud and excited voice "he's over here - he's over here" and she was pointing at me. I knew that I was not doing anything illegal or wrong so I turned back around and was leaning over and talking to my daughter about what she wanted me to buy for her.
As I was talking to my daughter someone grabbed me from behind and pulled me upright. He yelled in my ear "do you have a gun on you?" I replied "yes I do, right here" and looked down at my firearm, and was careful to keep my hands in front of me and nowhere near the gun. I also said "it is perfectly legal in Ohio to openly carry a gun so I'm not doing anything illegal at all and I know my rights". I then turned to look at him and saw that he was a Lima PD officer. Since I had already read up on the laws in Ohio and know my rights I was fairly calm and did not even think to try and really argue with the officer. I assumed that he was informed as to the law and our rights and since I was not doing anything illegal he would leave us alone and move on.
About that time I realized that there were at least 3 officers, maybe more, around me and my daughter. About that time my daughter got really upset and started crying loudly and screaming "daddy what's wrong". One of the officers yanked the gun with the holster from my belt and waistband and another officer grabbed my arms and pulled them behind me and put handcuffs on. By then my daughter was hysterical, naturally. I leaned over and tried to comfort her but it didn't help. At some point the lady from Square Fair came over close to us and I told her "It is legal to openly carry a gun in Ohio and I have broken no law or done anything illegal”. She looked at me and my daughter and said "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry".
The LPD officers marched me and my daughter from the 100 block of South Main St. around the Southeast side of the square to Market St. through the crowd and into the Police Station. During the walk my daughter held tightly to my left arm and kept crying hysterically and saying "daddy what are they doing". I kept telling her that we had not broken any laws or done anything illegal and that they will have to let us go. The lady from Square Fair kept saying "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry".
Things got a little fuzzy during all of this but I do clearly remember at least one of the LPD officers saying several times that they had "hundreds of complaints of a man with a gun" and considering where we were, outside of the main body of people, I knew for a fact that it most likely wasn’t true. I decided that it would not be a good idea to say that to any of the officers.
When we got to the Police Station the officers walked my daughter and I to a holding cell. All of the officers and the female from Square Fair were either in the cell or just outside of the door. My daughter never stopped crying. The female from Square Fair kept saying "I'm so sorry".
The officers eventually decided that my daughter could not stay with me and had to go. They ended up using my cell phone to call my wife at home. I knew that she could not leave because someone has to be with my elderly mother at all times. The female from Square Fair said that she would take my daughter home and I reluctantly agreed. One of the officers took the handcuffs off of me and let me give my daughter a hug and a kiss before she left.
My daughter did arrive home safely thanks to the lady from Square Fair. She told my daughter that she "was really brave" and gave her a 20 dollar bill.
At one point the desk officer came into the room and remembered me calling earlier.
I do not see a need to go into great detail from here on because I'm sure you know how it goes. One of the officers had me remove everything from my pockets, remove my shoes and belt, and remove my hat and logged it all on an inventory sheet.
That same officer then proceeded to go off on a long rant about how I was just trying to make a statement and that they "had hundreds of complaints" and that I was must be a stupid moron for thinking that I had any right to carry a gun there, but not in those exact words. I honestly do not remember his exact words, just the gist of it all. When he was finally finished with his tirade I calmly told him that I felt no need to make a statement, I was simply doing what I am legally allowed to do in Ohio and felt that I have committed no crime at all. The officer left after I signed the inventory of my belongings, my gun - ammo - and holster were not on the inventory but I did not think to question that then.
I sat in the holding cell for a while, not sure just how long, then the officer came back in and said that I could go. He returned my belongings minus the gun, ammo, and holster. I asked him for a receipt for the rest of my property and was told that I would not get one because it had been entered as evidence. I told the officer that I really wanted a receipt for the rest of my property and he said that I definitely would not get one but that the property will be returned after I go to court on 8-14-2009.
The charge was 2917.31 "INDUCING PANIC.
I had to sign an OR bond for 2000 dollars and was released to go home. As I walked out of the Police Station I looked at my watch and it was about 10:55 PM. I walked home and arrived at about 11:05 PM.
After I got settled down at home I posted mention of the incident on the forum at OFCC then typed a detailed account in a letter to Matt Huffman, my district Representative in Columbus.
Over the next 4 days I received plenty of offers to help and found out that some people were making enquires on my behalf in the background. Some of those who were involved include charben, dsk, bb62, from OFCC and maybe more that I am unaware of. I also learned that opencarry.org was also involved in some way.
On Wednesday August 12th I received a phone call from Heather Mann at Matt Huffman’s office. Heather seemed to be knowledgeable on the topic of Ohio gun law and was very helpful and seemed to be genuinely concerned. She had already talked to Jim Irvine at Buckeye Firearms about the case and referred me to him. I called Jim and we discussed the case and he referred me to Ken Hanson as an attorney that may be interested in the case.
As soon as I was finished talking with Jim I called Ken Hanson and I filled him in on the case from my point of view. Ken promised to look into it and call me back as soon as he knew anything.
The next day, Thursday August 13th Ken called to let me know that he would take the case. After talking with Ken I received a message from Dave Kessler, an attorney, asking me to call him. I called Dave and he said that he had talked to the City Attorney, Tony Geiger, here in Lima and that he was willing to dismiss the case. I immediately called Ken back to let him know what Dave had just told me.
Ken Hanson contacted the City Attorney and worked out an agreement that basically says that in exchange for them dismissing the case I will not take any action against the City of Lima or Square Fair Lima. Also the City Attorney will be provided with training material covering gun law and open carry in Ohio and that material will be used to provide training for the officers in the Lima Police Department in an effort to prevent any further incidents like this one. That sounded good to me considering that I have more than just myself to consider so I agreed.
Yesterday, August 20th I walked to the City Attorney’s office and handed him the signed and notarized agreement and he returned my gun, holster, and ammunition. When I left the office I openly carried my gun on my hip as I walked home. I passed 2 Lima PD officers in their cars but arrived home without incident. I have no way of knowing if they even saw the gun.
As of now I have not seen the police report, the complaint filed with the City Attorney, or anything else in the case. I do hope to get a copy of everything at some point.
And now you have the whole story from my perspective. Am I completely happy? No, I would be less than truthful if I said that I am. However, considering the circumstances here at home with my mother, I am happy with the outcome.
I feel no anger, animosity, or bitterness toward any of the Lima PD officers who were involved in the incident. I am willing, at this point, to assume that they just were unaware that I was not really breaking any law or guilty of any criminal act by openly carrying a gun for the protection of my daughter and I. I am also not angry with the lady from Square Fair since I am sure that she was as unaware of the law as most of the rest of the population.
I feel, from my point of view, that the City Attorney – Tony Geiger acted in the best interest of all involved and made the right decision in this case. As far as I am concerned he earned my respect. I hope Ken Hanson doesn’t mind but here is a quote from him “tony displayed infinitely more professionalism than I deal with in some places. Cleveland , for instance. “Sue us, we don’t care. It isn’t our money.”
Let me make one thing clear, I do not advocate open carry of a firearm as general practice. I am carrying mine openly until I take the CCW class and receive my Concealed Handgun License. Then I will probably keep it covered most of the time. However it is our right to openly carry a firearm and I am fully supportive of anyone who chooses to do so. It is past time for all of the law enforcement officers in Ohio to learn that it is a right and leave open carriers alone.
I’m sure that there will be plenty of Monday morning quarterbacking now but you have the facts from my perspective and it really doesn’t much matter how anyone else would have reacted or how they would have handled things after they were released from custody. Discussion is a healthy thing and perhaps we will all learn a few things from this incident.
I recently purchased a handgun for personal protection and for the protection of my family. Because of taking care of my elderly mother at home I am unable to work now. We try to get along on the meager earnings from my wife's job and my mother's Social Security. It was a chore to save the money to purchase the handgun in question. With some of the crime in the area recently I felt that it was a good idea to go ahead and buy the gun. I have not yet had a chance to take a CCW class in order to get my Concealed Carry License. I plan to get into a class in early September. I have been using my right as a law abiding citizen to openly carry the firearm when out walking which, due to circumstances here at home taking care of my elderly mother, I don't get to do very often. Only one neighbor has said anything and he isn't against it, he just had questions about the legalities and I believe that I was able to satisfy his curiosity.
Before I purchased the gun I did a lot of research in an attempt to learn all that I could about the gun laws in Ohio and about my rights and responsibilities. Because of that research I knew how to act and what to do and not do even before I purchased the gun.
On the evening of Tuesday August 4th we, as a family, decided to walk to the Town Square here in Lima for the National Night Out festivities. There were 5 of us - my 84 year old mother in her wheelchair, my 4 year old son, my 9 year old daughter, my wife, and myself. I openly carried my firearm in a holster on my right side and made sure that it was never covered or hidden in any way. I made sure that there was nothing in my right pants pocket that I would need to reach for so my hands would not need to go near the gun. We made the walk to the festivities with no problem. While we were in the Square I passed numerous law enforcement officers from both the Lima Police Department and the Allen County Sheriff’s Department. Some were in uniform and some just had dark blue/black shirts that said Police on them. I even stood in line to get food beside at least 2 officers. We were there for about one and a half hours before beginning the walk home. Not one word was said about my firearm by anyone. I can't think of any reason why at least some did not see it, they had to see it. The gun was in plain sight. We left the square and walked home without incident.
I have read that many law enforcement officers in Ohio frown on open carry of a firearm and will stop and question and even detain and at least temporarily disarm anyone that they see openly carrying a gun, especially if there has been a "person with a gun" complaint. Based on the experience from the trip to and from The National Night Out I assumed that the officers here in Lima must be informed and educated as to our rights.
Saturday evening August 8th I decided to take my 9 year old daughter to the Lima Square Fair for the headliner concert and fireworks as I do every year. Every year we walk from home to the square. Since I now own a gun for protection I decided to once again openly carry it for the trip as I did on August 4th. Based on the experience on the 4th I did not anticipate any problem, I assumed that the local law enforcement officers were educated as to our right to openly carry a firearm and would leave me alone.
Before we left I decided to call the Lima Police Department and talked to the desk officer to make sure that I would not be stopped by any of their officers. The desk officer told me that he would not recommend carrying the gun because of the crowd but agreed that it is my right. He could not guarantee that I would not be stopped by any of their officers. I informed him that we never go into the crowd anyhow, we hang out at the back along South Main St. where my daughter can find something to stand or sit on to see better, so that should not be a problem. I told the desk officer that when we got to the square I would try to locate an officer there and inform him that I was openly carrying a gun in order to try and be sure that there would be no problems. I was not concerned about safety in the square, just the trip from home to the square and then back home.
My daughter and I left home shortly after 9 PM and walked up South Main Street to the square. We arrived with no problem. It is about a 7 block walk from home to the square. As we always do we stayed at the back of the crowd along South Main St. and listened to the music and watched the people in front of us. When we did move around I held her hand so we would not be separated since the crowd was larger than in years past and spilling out of the square onto South Main St. I watched for any law enforcement officers and saw none. I also kept a close watch for anyone that seemed to be alarmed that I had a gun at my side, I saw no indication of it. I never saw one person panic or even hardly give my daughter and I a second look. Of course that doesn’t mean that no one did, I just didn’t see it.
I was not keeping track of the time but at about 9:45 or so, a guess, we walked down Main St. to a booth that was selling sand art craft bottles for the children. As we walked around I noticed that someone, a female, talking frantically on a cell phone and with a Square Fair workers tag around her neck was very obviously following us. She followed us to the booth and stayed close enough that I could hear her voice over the loud music but could not hear what she was saying. I pretty much ignored her. As my daughter and I were looking at the sand art bottles I noticed that the female started jumping up and down and yelling in a very loud and excited voice "he's over here - he's over here" and she was pointing at me. I knew that I was not doing anything illegal or wrong so I turned back around and was leaning over and talking to my daughter about what she wanted me to buy for her.
As I was talking to my daughter someone grabbed me from behind and pulled me upright. He yelled in my ear "do you have a gun on you?" I replied "yes I do, right here" and looked down at my firearm, and was careful to keep my hands in front of me and nowhere near the gun. I also said "it is perfectly legal in Ohio to openly carry a gun so I'm not doing anything illegal at all and I know my rights". I then turned to look at him and saw that he was a Lima PD officer. Since I had already read up on the laws in Ohio and know my rights I was fairly calm and did not even think to try and really argue with the officer. I assumed that he was informed as to the law and our rights and since I was not doing anything illegal he would leave us alone and move on.
About that time I realized that there were at least 3 officers, maybe more, around me and my daughter. About that time my daughter got really upset and started crying loudly and screaming "daddy what's wrong". One of the officers yanked the gun with the holster from my belt and waistband and another officer grabbed my arms and pulled them behind me and put handcuffs on. By then my daughter was hysterical, naturally. I leaned over and tried to comfort her but it didn't help. At some point the lady from Square Fair came over close to us and I told her "It is legal to openly carry a gun in Ohio and I have broken no law or done anything illegal”. She looked at me and my daughter and said "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry".
The LPD officers marched me and my daughter from the 100 block of South Main St. around the Southeast side of the square to Market St. through the crowd and into the Police Station. During the walk my daughter held tightly to my left arm and kept crying hysterically and saying "daddy what are they doing". I kept telling her that we had not broken any laws or done anything illegal and that they will have to let us go. The lady from Square Fair kept saying "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry".
Things got a little fuzzy during all of this but I do clearly remember at least one of the LPD officers saying several times that they had "hundreds of complaints of a man with a gun" and considering where we were, outside of the main body of people, I knew for a fact that it most likely wasn’t true. I decided that it would not be a good idea to say that to any of the officers.
When we got to the Police Station the officers walked my daughter and I to a holding cell. All of the officers and the female from Square Fair were either in the cell or just outside of the door. My daughter never stopped crying. The female from Square Fair kept saying "I'm so sorry".
The officers eventually decided that my daughter could not stay with me and had to go. They ended up using my cell phone to call my wife at home. I knew that she could not leave because someone has to be with my elderly mother at all times. The female from Square Fair said that she would take my daughter home and I reluctantly agreed. One of the officers took the handcuffs off of me and let me give my daughter a hug and a kiss before she left.
My daughter did arrive home safely thanks to the lady from Square Fair. She told my daughter that she "was really brave" and gave her a 20 dollar bill.
At one point the desk officer came into the room and remembered me calling earlier.
I do not see a need to go into great detail from here on because I'm sure you know how it goes. One of the officers had me remove everything from my pockets, remove my shoes and belt, and remove my hat and logged it all on an inventory sheet.
That same officer then proceeded to go off on a long rant about how I was just trying to make a statement and that they "had hundreds of complaints" and that I was must be a stupid moron for thinking that I had any right to carry a gun there, but not in those exact words. I honestly do not remember his exact words, just the gist of it all. When he was finally finished with his tirade I calmly told him that I felt no need to make a statement, I was simply doing what I am legally allowed to do in Ohio and felt that I have committed no crime at all. The officer left after I signed the inventory of my belongings, my gun - ammo - and holster were not on the inventory but I did not think to question that then.
I sat in the holding cell for a while, not sure just how long, then the officer came back in and said that I could go. He returned my belongings minus the gun, ammo, and holster. I asked him for a receipt for the rest of my property and was told that I would not get one because it had been entered as evidence. I told the officer that I really wanted a receipt for the rest of my property and he said that I definitely would not get one but that the property will be returned after I go to court on 8-14-2009.
The charge was 2917.31 "INDUCING PANIC.
I had to sign an OR bond for 2000 dollars and was released to go home. As I walked out of the Police Station I looked at my watch and it was about 10:55 PM. I walked home and arrived at about 11:05 PM.
After I got settled down at home I posted mention of the incident on the forum at OFCC then typed a detailed account in a letter to Matt Huffman, my district Representative in Columbus.
Over the next 4 days I received plenty of offers to help and found out that some people were making enquires on my behalf in the background. Some of those who were involved include charben, dsk, bb62, from OFCC and maybe more that I am unaware of. I also learned that opencarry.org was also involved in some way.
On Wednesday August 12th I received a phone call from Heather Mann at Matt Huffman’s office. Heather seemed to be knowledgeable on the topic of Ohio gun law and was very helpful and seemed to be genuinely concerned. She had already talked to Jim Irvine at Buckeye Firearms about the case and referred me to him. I called Jim and we discussed the case and he referred me to Ken Hanson as an attorney that may be interested in the case.
As soon as I was finished talking with Jim I called Ken Hanson and I filled him in on the case from my point of view. Ken promised to look into it and call me back as soon as he knew anything.
The next day, Thursday August 13th Ken called to let me know that he would take the case. After talking with Ken I received a message from Dave Kessler, an attorney, asking me to call him. I called Dave and he said that he had talked to the City Attorney, Tony Geiger, here in Lima and that he was willing to dismiss the case. I immediately called Ken back to let him know what Dave had just told me.
Ken Hanson contacted the City Attorney and worked out an agreement that basically says that in exchange for them dismissing the case I will not take any action against the City of Lima or Square Fair Lima. Also the City Attorney will be provided with training material covering gun law and open carry in Ohio and that material will be used to provide training for the officers in the Lima Police Department in an effort to prevent any further incidents like this one. That sounded good to me considering that I have more than just myself to consider so I agreed.
Yesterday, August 20th I walked to the City Attorney’s office and handed him the signed and notarized agreement and he returned my gun, holster, and ammunition. When I left the office I openly carried my gun on my hip as I walked home. I passed 2 Lima PD officers in their cars but arrived home without incident. I have no way of knowing if they even saw the gun.
As of now I have not seen the police report, the complaint filed with the City Attorney, or anything else in the case. I do hope to get a copy of everything at some point.
And now you have the whole story from my perspective. Am I completely happy? No, I would be less than truthful if I said that I am. However, considering the circumstances here at home with my mother, I am happy with the outcome.
I feel no anger, animosity, or bitterness toward any of the Lima PD officers who were involved in the incident. I am willing, at this point, to assume that they just were unaware that I was not really breaking any law or guilty of any criminal act by openly carrying a gun for the protection of my daughter and I. I am also not angry with the lady from Square Fair since I am sure that she was as unaware of the law as most of the rest of the population.
I feel, from my point of view, that the City Attorney – Tony Geiger acted in the best interest of all involved and made the right decision in this case. As far as I am concerned he earned my respect. I hope Ken Hanson doesn’t mind but here is a quote from him “tony displayed infinitely more professionalism than I deal with in some places. Cleveland , for instance. “Sue us, we don’t care. It isn’t our money.”
Let me make one thing clear, I do not advocate open carry of a firearm as general practice. I am carrying mine openly until I take the CCW class and receive my Concealed Handgun License. Then I will probably keep it covered most of the time. However it is our right to openly carry a firearm and I am fully supportive of anyone who chooses to do so. It is past time for all of the law enforcement officers in Ohio to learn that it is a right and leave open carriers alone.
I’m sure that there will be plenty of Monday morning quarterbacking now but you have the facts from my perspective and it really doesn’t much matter how anyone else would have reacted or how they would have handled things after they were released from custody. Discussion is a healthy thing and perhaps we will all learn a few things from this incident.