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A Warning Over Political Sabotoge

LuvmyXD9

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Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV wrote:
LuvmyXD9 wrote:
Let's see, I am not a republican because:

I don't believe in fairy tales (god)
I don't believe in removing population control (I believe in abortion rights)
I don't believe in deregulating industries (hellllllllllo there mortgage industry and tax loopholes)
I do not believe in foreign aggression unless necessary
Then there's little stuff, I believe torture is retarded, the spending rate on our military and social programs are ridiculous (OH SNAP GOING AGAINST DEM VIEWS) and obviously since I'm on this board I'm rather 2A pro.

Just one question: why, pray tell, do you think "population control" is a good thing?
This is going to spark a different debate so I'd rather discuss this in PM's, but oh well. I believe that two people should not be forced to produce a baby when they simply do not wish to. They should have the power of choice as to whether or not to keep a baby or not.

A child forced into this world as an accident between two foolish parents that didn't follow proper protection is a world of hurt. Adoption shelters are already overfull and our current population is growing at an exponential rate. This consumes more and more resources and is overall generally unhealthy.

Would you prefer to force everyone that concepts to have a baby?
 

LuvmyXD9

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ixtow wrote:
LuvmyXD9 wrote:
ixtow wrote:
LuvmyXD9 wrote:
ixtow wrote:
LuvmyXD9 wrote:
ixtow wrote:
Good call.

DemocRats have been known to do just such a thing. But, I believe their cowardly nature would prevent them from going this far. However, I will also contradict myself and say that there are a great number of extreme zealots in their ranks, and I would not put it past them to buy a gun, pose as 'one of us' and do something much worse than 'negligently discharge.' They can't find an example to back up their claims, so they'll take it upon themselves to create it.

Vigilance.
Okay I've read about enough of this crap already, I cannot believe the type of simple minded garbage coming out of the mouths of fellow gun rights activists.

Regardless of what the extreme side of the anti-gun has spewed at us (redneck, hillbilly, racists, whatever they want to paint the average 2A person), it only makes you look simple minded to respond with the same type of garbage.

I am a democrat, and hold many of their values in high esteem. I have NEVER been against guns in any shape or form. I know a few democrats that are pro-gun. I know a few republicans that are so anti-gun it's ridiculous.

I also believe this type of attitude is exactly the wrong type of attention the pro-2a crowd needs. I don't like the name calling at pro-2a people any more than the next guy, but you have to beat them where it counts and that's in the legislator. You damage our cause with every dumb comment made, and I have no idea why this type of crap is spewed especially prominently in the Arizona forum.

But continue to segregate your followers, as if republican = pro gun and democrat = anti gun.
If one examines the party's platform; democrats ARE anti-gun. Just because there are a few who say you aren't, yet still vote for all the politicians who want to strip them away... uh... yeah. I think you wish we were simple-minded enough not to notice that.

But you have a valid point on Republicans not always being pro-gun. Bush was an anti. All imperialists are....
Because every single democrat is entirely 100% democrat, right?

I vote based on a huge range of subjects, not JUST blindly gun control. I am looking to preserve ALL of my rights, not just the second.

And only a fool votes by party.
Did I say that? No.

I think most democraps are far less extreme than the psychotic extremists they elect. Yet they still place that vote for the moonbat@#$%crazy... So what do I call it? A moderate that votes far left? The vote is what names it.....

As stupid as left/right is, it still exists.

As for single-issue voting... Most of the 'issues' are about social programs that I feel should not exist. A variety of meddling that the gov should just plain not be involved in. The only real issue at hand, that I feel needs to be addressed, is the 2a. I'm not advocating a certain choice in how or why you vote, but the 2a is what guarantees all of the others.

It would be ignorant to call me a one-issue voter. I just haven't found any other issues that are more important. :p
I'm not even going to get into a political debate of how blatantly ignorant that comment was.

Let's see, I am not a republican because:

I don't believe in fairy tales (god)
I don't believe in removing population control (I believe in abortion rights)
I don't believe in deregulating industries (hellllllllllo there mortgage industry and tax loopholes)
I do not believe in foreign aggression unless necessary
Then there's little stuff, I believe torture is retarded, the spending rate on our military and social programs are ridiculous (OH SNAP GOING AGAINST DEM VIEWS) and obviously since I'm on this board I'm rather 2A pro.
Yup, you're a democrat alright. I'm just an ignorant tobacco chewing redneck. I have a big truck and I'm fat and my butt crack hangs out. I swill pabst blue ribon 24x7 and I can't tell my uncles from my nieces. Oh, also, I can't read, yet own 72 Bibles. I have Jesus tattooed on my forehead. I'll kill you if you kill your baby, and I live in a paid-off single-wide trailer.

That about cover it? Did I miss anything?

Whatever.
So democrats are usually anti-gun and you get offended when I go over the standard republican beliefs? Mmkay then :)
 
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LuvmyXD9 wrote:
Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV wrote:
LuvmyXD9 wrote:
Let's see, I am not a republican because:

I don't believe in fairy tales (god)
I don't believe in removing population control (I believe in abortion rights)
I don't believe in deregulating industries (hellllllllllo there mortgage industry and tax loopholes)
I do not believe in foreign aggression unless necessary
Then there's little stuff, I believe torture is retarded, the spending rate on our military and social programs are ridiculous (OH SNAP GOING AGAINST DEM VIEWS) and obviously since I'm on this board I'm rather 2A pro.

Just one question: why, pray tell, do you think "population control" is a good thing?
This is going to spark a different debate so I'd rather discuss this in PM's, but oh well. I believe that two people should not be forced to produce a baby when they simply do not wish to. They should have the power of choice as to whether or not to keep a baby or not.

A child forced into this world as an accident between two foolish parents that didn't follow proper protection is a world of hurt. Adoption shelters are already overfull and our current population is growing at an exponential rate. This consumes more and more resources and is overall generally unhealthy.

Would you prefer to force everyone that concepts to have a baby?
Dagblasted quote function -- *SIGH*.

Anyhow, I would prefer that people who do not wish to "produce" a baby take the necessary steps beforehand to prevent a conception, and not treat something as traumatic (both to the mother and unborn child) as abortion as "just another birth control option." In other words, be responsible.

I know it's a lot to ask of people, especially in a culture that encourages irresponsibility, but there you go. As for the rest -- as you said, it's a different debate, more suited to a non-gun forum. *GRIN*

All that being said, you answered my question, so I reckon enough's enough. No need to further pursue blatantly OT discussions.
 

LuvmyXD9

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Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV wrote:
LuvmyXD9 wrote:
Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV wrote:
LuvmyXD9 wrote:
Let's see, I am not a republican because:

I don't believe in fairy tales (god)
I don't believe in removing population control (I believe in abortion rights)
I don't believe in deregulating industries (hellllllllllo there mortgage industry and tax loopholes)
I do not believe in foreign aggression unless necessary
Then there's little stuff, I believe torture is retarded, the spending rate on our military and social programs are ridiculous (OH SNAP GOING AGAINST DEM VIEWS) and obviously since I'm on this board I'm rather 2A pro.

Just one question: why, pray tell, do you think "population control" is a good thing?
This is going to spark a different debate so I'd rather discuss this in PM's, but oh well. I believe that two people should not be forced to produce a baby when they simply do not wish to. They should have the power of choice as to whether or not to keep a baby or not.

A child forced into this world as an accident between two foolish parents that didn't follow proper protection is a world of hurt. Adoption shelters are already overfull and our current population is growing at an exponential rate. This consumes more and more resources and is overall generally unhealthy.

Would you prefer to force everyone that concepts to have a baby?
Dagblasted quote function -- *SIGH*.

Anyhow, I would prefer that people who do not wish to "produce" a baby take the necessary steps beforehand to prevent a conception, and not treat something as traumatic (both to the mother and unborn child) as abortion as "just another birth control option." In other words, be responsible.

I know it's a lot to ask of people, especially in a culture that encourages irresponsibility, but there you go. As for the rest -- as you said, it's a different debate, more suited to a non-gun forum. *GRIN*

All that being said, you answered my question, so I reckon enough's enough. No need to further pursue blatantly OT discussions.

Don't get me wrong I think that's an absolute beyond last ditch effort and you would think that proper use of a condom wouldn't be such a difficult task, but again these things happen.

I just would prefer the choice stay open, rather than slam it shut as some would like.
 

LuvmyXD9

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Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV wrote:
Gee, Luv.

Either you work during this time, or you're a chronic insomniac like myself. *GRIN*
College student actually. First day in the new semester.
 
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LuvmyXD9 wrote:
Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV wrote:
Gee, Luv.

Either you work during this time, or you're a chronic insomniac like myself. *GRIN*
College student actually. First day in the new semester.
I remember college. That's where I acquired my insomnia (a long, long time ago -- longer than you are old, though I almost hate to admit that).
 

LuvmyXD9

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Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV wrote:
LuvmyXD9 wrote:
Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV wrote:
Gee, Luv.

Either you work during this time, or you're a chronic insomniac like myself. *GRIN*
College student actually. First day in the new semester.
I remember college. That's where I acquired my insomnia (a long, long time ago -- longer than you are old, though I almost hate to admit that).
At times I deplore it. The long nights are a PITA sometimes.

With age comes wisdom usually, I prefer talking to older people, you tend to learn a lot in preventing mistakes.
 
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LuvmyXD9 wrote:
Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV wrote:
LuvmyXD9 wrote:
Pistol-Packing-Preacher-in-PV wrote:
Gee, Luv.

Either you work during this time, or you're a chronic insomniac like myself. *GRIN*
College student actually. First day in the new semester.
I remember college. That's where I acquired my insomnia (a long, long time ago -- longer than you are old, though I almost hate to admit that).
At times I deplore it. The long nights are a PITA sometimes.

With age comes wisdom usually, I prefer talking to older people, you tend to learn a lot in preventing mistakes.
I've pretty much given up on trying to give advice to the kids. Guess everyone has to make their own mistakes -- who'd want to listen to someone who has already made them, and has an idea or two about how to avoid them? *GRIN*
 

MrSigmaDot40

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protector84 wrote:
You can call it paranoia but I don't. Throughout recorded history, when a particular cause starts to gain ground and those who oppose it realize that they can't defeat it using traditional and lawful means, they will outright try to sabatoge it to make the other side look bad.

Our OCgatherings are not only highly successful, they are starting to gather statewide and even national attention. I have been to two of these OC dinners at restaurants and to my knowledge there have only been a handful of them and these have only recently started. Of the 4-6 or so dinners we have had including one of them that I've been to, the media has shown up and put coverage on the news in Phoenix. Now that about a dozen people (who probably are not even affiliated with OCDO) decided to show up to protest Obama's lectures, open carry is now making national news.

Since these gatherings are all voluntary and done without any official leadership (which is a good thing in my opinion), most of us don't even know each other outside of the forums or outside of the dinners and nobody knows everybody else present. With the public attention these gatherings are gaining, there is a risk that some individuals may attend who are not on our side. I believe that it is important to be aware of our surroundings at these events to any suspicious characters who may cause a problem. This could be something as simple as an OCer (who is actually with the anti-gun group) "accidently" discharging a firearm in the restaurant. Something like that could seriously damage what we are doing. Therefore, we should continue to enjoy these dinners and other events but keep our eyes open for anyone who could be a problem and if someone is demonstrating to be a problem (i.e. someone taking out their firearm and handling it recklessly)to have them quickly removed from the gathering.




I was going to post something similar to your post. I'm from the CA side here but, I wanted to give you guys your due respect for how you and NH have done these showings and worked the media. Although I'm a bit worried it could cause a new anti-fight trying to pass OC bans like crazy. But you guys have handled the media so well that it has to have turned ON a lot of people that might not have had a chance to see that we are not some crazy weird people.

I want to add a little to what you are saying above. Yes we need to watch for "Lib/Anti's" But I would be more worried that one of our Friendly "AGENCIES" might try something like that. BE VERY WATCHFUL! all Oc'rs as of now should know each other on outings. If you see somebody you don't know, go meet them and ask them a few questions.

Very easy for some agent to shoot a gun off in one of these events and blame it on us. Lets keep good records and check the people around us. There is no way I'm going to believe that not only are we being watched but now probably in the process of being infiltrated/compromised. Alright I've said enough to get me in Gitmo for the cause, you know the history at play here people, stay safe.
 

RJ

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I'm thinking the OC dinners we've had are growing, started out with a dozen or so and have now been averaging 60 plus.
With new members from all forums joining us, as there are no lines drawn in gun rights issues.
With that said, we have had immeasurable impact on the people of the food establishment and the public which frequents it,
All who have joined us, (which entails, families with their chilren and all walks of the world available to this area) have handled themselves in a very responsble manner, with no adverse actions or comments other than the individuals who do not comprehend the gravity of our actions and the rights we advocate. There will always be those that do not agree and no matter what or how you try to convince them it will be lost.
AS for a AD, or ND during one of these events, one would hope it wouldn't be intentional and if so, then no matter the reason, the spin will be negative by who ever reports it, that is what we all can expect.

Almost all who frequent know each other or have brought someone to the table, we watch each other and in turn all know the consequences of trouble.
I'd expect with the success we have had, and with it growing at each meeting, it is inevitable a "situation" will come up. Most of us are prepared to deal with it as repsonsible gun owners and members of the community.

But to walk around paranoid that someone will do this is creating a aura of fear and dispair among the group.
We can only hope there will be continued success for these dinners, and gatherings.
If you wish to join us, let me know or check out the next notice of OC dinner in Chandler Az on 19 sept, 6pm.
regards
RJ
 

ixtow

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Responsible gun owners run scenarios through their heads all the time. This is just another. I don't think it creates an aura of fear or despair. It's just one more thing to think about. A very dangerous and damaging thing. Kinda like crashing your enormous SUV into a school bus, but to some, not so obvious. It would be bad, and is to be avoided.

It is just a continuation of the common thread in all responsible gun owners; be vigilant and prepared for anything.
 

RJ

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One of the things I've noticed about new or partime OC folks is the almost indecisiveness of doing it, sometimes they equate it to fear, other worrying about a LEO interaction.

I've discussed it multiple times with a lot of beginners and the OC dinners have provided a venue for them to try it out and see how others act, re-act to carriers and no carriers. Its a learning experience for all of us, experienced OC"rs also, as it is with the non carriers.

True vigilance and responibility is that of every citizen, whether armed or not.
IMO
RJ
 

protector84

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Anyone who may equate my comments in this thread to possible paranoia may want to read again. All gun owners (and even non-gun owners) should play "what-if" games for their own defense on a semi-regular basis. That does not mean taking it to the extremes of barricading your home for when the Martians attack. It involves simple stuff such as walking into a restaurant and mentally making a note of all of the exits that you could go to in case of fire. Another example is when OCing in a crowded environment, simply knowing who is around you and what you can do in the small chance you deal with an aggressive and problematic individual.

With large gatherings that are politically based, it is always common sense to be extremely vigilant about your surroundings. A peaceful protest can quickly turn into a riot. The police can not always be trusted. These dinners are extremely successful and because of that are gathering national media attention (at least now that the guy carried the AR at the political rally). I'm sorry but I don't trust the government and especially not now. Obama, his administration, and his supporters do not want people to own firearms. They may not say this publically but they do not want power in the hands of the people.

We are not a militia group but just a bunch of pround Americans exercising our Constitutional rights to a peaceful gathering and the right to bear arms. That doesn't mean the media or the government sees it that way. Thesehigh officialssee large groups of people with guns as militias, anarchists, revolutionaries, and terrorists. Even though that is not what we are, I'd be shocked if the ATF/FBI/DHS has not already started investigating or at least documenting on these. I highly doubt our local, county, and state law enforcement would ever waste the time investigating any of this as this is Arizona and our law enforcement generally respects our 2nd Amendment rights. The feds area different story. I hate to break it to you but this is not a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people." They don't want Americans gathering together and disucssing important issues, they don't want us exercising any of our freedoms, and they especially don't want us capable of resisting tyranny if we had to. They want Americans to sit in their living rooms remaining as stupid as ever, sedated in front of reality TV, preoccupied with their own dramas, and too distracted with their own meaningless lives to be thinking about anything of serious value. The last thing they want is for the "dumb masses" to suddenly start getting smart, reading important literature and materials, and then organizing. They definitely DO NOT want that.

With this in mind, we simply need to continue these dinners and other events but remain smart about them while doing so. I enjoy a good meal and great conversation which sadly is rare in a lot of circles these days. These dinners have really been quite excellent and I think the format used is good. Usually there is a sign up sheet and name tags as well as a time where everyone publically introduces themselves which is a great way to get to know each other. This makes it harder for someone to do something stupid. Any kook who shows up to defame us (such as pretending to be on our side and then starts spouting racist remarks to make us appear to be racists) should be quickly denounced and removed if needed. Anybody horsing around with a firearm (which has never happened and pray never will) will need to be kicked out and detained if necessary. Discussing these possibilities is not "paranoia" but simply being prepared to deal with anyone who may not truly be on our side trying to discredit the group.

That aside, I'm looking forward to the next meetup!
 
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