Open Carry Mt. Hood Legacy Hospital

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I thought I would pass my experience yesterday at Mt. Hood Legacy Hospital.



My significant other (SO) had surgery on her nose.



Pre-surgery intake was done on Tuesday, 18 Aug 09. I took her in wearing my .45 Colt New Agent in plain view of God, country and citizens. No problem. We walked in and I took a seat while they did their intake.



Thursday, 20 Aug 09. I took her to the hospital. She checked in and we went to the fourth floor. No problem. When they came and took her to surgery, we saw a security officer walking down the hallway and thought nothing of it. My SO goes to surgery and I go and take care of some “honey do’s.”



I came back at 1315 to eat some lunch in the cafeteria and there was no problem. The doctor called me and said she was fine and in recovery and should be back in her room by 1430. I left to do some more “honey do’s.”



I came back to the hospital at 1430 and went to the fourth floor. I was there about five minutes and three security guys where at the door and said, “That (pointing at my handgun” has caused quite an alarm.



I said, “well, did you inform them of the open carry laws in Oregon?” He had no idea of what I was talking about. Then said that I had to leave.



Well, being the belligerent soul that I am, I told him that he was wrong and that I could carry my gun in a hospital. He went off and told me that I could not carry my gun in schools, hospitals, or airports.



I then told him that only the state legislature has the authority to set laws on weapons. I told him that I had a concealed weapon permit and he wanted to see it. I showed it to him (by the way, since the hospital is in Gresham I really did not have to show him my license. I really regret showing it to him because he wrote down my address and information off of the license.) He then took my license and pointed out the fact that it says concealed and that I have to have my weapon concealed. I told him he was dead wrong. That is when I pulled out my ORS. 166.173. He had no idea what the laws are or were. He said, “Oh, they do not affect a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun.”



Well, we debated the issue for awhile, my SO was still groggy and a little upset with me for arguing, and the guy asked me nicely to take the conversation to the auto. Of course, I stated that since they took my information, I wanted theirs and their supervisors. They said they would give it to me at my auto. Never got any information from them.



I told them that I was going to put a shirt over my weapon and go back into the hospital. That is when they said that the hospital was a “weapon free zone” (?????) I said where are your signs? You need to post it!



One of the guys said there were some signs on the back and side doors. I said , “Oh, that’s good. No one goes in the back door or side door unless they have ill intent. Law abiding citizens use the front door.



I told them they needed to call the police and have them tell me in front of the cop that I could not go in the hospital with my weapon. They obliged me. The cop told them I had the right to carry my weapon openly; HOWEVER, the hospital is PRIVATE property and they, of course, have the right to have a “weapon free zone,” but they need to post it. The cop told me that I had done a good job.



They made me leave my weapon in the car, but one of the security guys said he’d been a cop for 29 years and did not know a person could openly carry a weapon. He also said that someone had called the Gresham police earlier in the day when they saw me with my weapon, so when the security people called, they told them there was no law forbidding me to carry openly and the cop that showed up had already been briefed.



Now comes my real gripe: No posted signs or any written policy concerning weapons, that I am aware of, can be found on the property or web site. There are “No Smoking” signs posted everywhere around the entrance to the place but nothing about weapons. So, is the security guy blowing smoke? Is there a written policy or is just some offended nurse who does not like guns making noise and the security people then making her feel “saaafe.”



The security guy said that there is going to be signs. I will give them a month and then drive by and check it out. I am also going to give Mr. Groner III, Chief Legal Counsel and compliance officer a call today to see if there is any written policy about weapons.



I do not know how far I want to push this button but it does irritate me that they have people enforcing rules and regulations that do not know what the laws are.



What I would like to do is give them a month to post their signs and then if there are no signs stage a rally at the cafeteria with about 50 men and women carrying weapons in the open to see what they would do.



I guess it really does not matter all that much because I had to leave again to pick up SO’s prescriptions, put a shirt on and had the weapon inside the waist band and the security guy just looked at me. I know he wanted to ask but he knew better. I would have told him, “It is none his business what is inside my pants and he ain’t goin’ there without or with, for that matter, a warrant.”



The other fact is that I really have no other business at the hospital. So what is the point?



I am in Gresham, people, so do feel all alone. I have been carrying open for quite sometime now. I have been in the following with no problem:



Home Depot

Walmart

Safeway

Carl's Jr.

Les Scwabb

Gresham DMV--The lady said my gun waswas supposed to be concealed. I said, "WHAT?????" She never answered.

Lowes

Platt

Latus Harley Davidson

Fred Myers

Numerous Gas Stations



I do get a few questions anda lot of fun conversations.



I also ride a Harley Davidson. I get some good looks when I am at a stop sign.



I have been wanting to go to this biker bar but you know, alcohol and guns just do not mix....and I never leave home without a .45;I have two. So, no bars for me at the moment.

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DJ,

I think what this really boils down to is matter of common sense. I am all for open carry. I believe in it and I support it 100%. HOWEVER, there are certain places where, even though I still could OC, I won't because of common sense.

A hospital is not a place where I would OC, nor would I argue the right to do it. That hospital is private property, and they are well within their rights to disallow weapons carry of any kind. Additionally, a hospital is most certainly a place where folks would get mighty damned sketchy about a fellow carrying openly.

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DJ,

I agree completely - if they do have an established policy of a "Weapons Free Zone", then it should be posted at all entrances to the facility.

Otherwise, you need to be notified by the Person In Charge (in this case, I'd guess it would be the hospital administrator) and not an employee. It needs be this person, because only they have the right to specify private property policy.

The next time this happens (assuming there are no signs), politely but firmly insist on speaking to the PIC. Not the head of Security. Not the head nurse. The person in charge of setting site policy - the top dog.

There's a very good reason for this. If you interact with anyone below the top person, that person's decision could be overridden (one way or the other) by the person higher up the chain.

Do not 'engage' the minions. They have no real power to affect policy. They just do what they are told. Just keep asking "I need to speak to your boss' boss' boss". Every person they cart out to deal with you, ask them just one question - "Are you the person in charge of this location that sets policy, or do you report to someone else at this facility?"

Don't show ID, don't show your CHL, just keep plugging away until you get the PIC, then talk to them about the policy. Explain to them this will happen every time you get hassled until the policy is changed or proper notification is posted. Telling you "we told you last time you were here" might hold water, but you could honestly say "I wasn't sure if there was a change in policy since the last time I was here, and I didn't see any signs at the entrance".

By consistently inconveniencing the head honcho, you will either:

1) Get them to post signs appropriately.
2) Get them to leave you alone and let you carry.

While we'd all like the result to be #2 (WHO DOES NUMBER TWO WORK FOR?!?! - sorry, couldn't resist), in reality, they have the right to do either.

While we're out here, fighting for our 2nd Amendment rights, it's super-important to realize that our rights end where another person's rights begin. It does not further our agenda of promotion of rights by supressing the rights of others.

I'd like to also echo Ironbar's comments. There are certain places that I'm personally not comfortable open carrying. I may have the right to, but out of respect, I don't. We each have our own 'comfort zone' as to where that is.

If this is important to you, I say go for it - I encourage you. I personally would not carry in a hospital, however, but really - to each his own - I'm not criticizing you for doing so. We all need to do our part...

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Ironbar wrote:

DJ,

I think what this really boils down to is matter of common sense. I am all for open carry. I believe in it and I support it 100%. HOWEVER, there are certain places where, even though I still could OC, I won't because of common sense.

A hospital is not a place where I would OC, nor would I argue the right to do it. That hospital is private property, and they are well within their rights to disallow weapons carry of any kind. Additionally, a hospital is most certainly a place where folks would get mighty damned sketchy about a fellow carrying openly.

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Well, I have thought about all of the scenarios that might come up about this issue in answering the question, "Why are you carrying a gun at a hospital?"The "common sense" issue did arise in my thinking; i.e, someone might say, "'Common sense,' would dictate or a 'reasonable person' would not carry a loaded firearm into a hospital.

Common sense would dictate to some that smoking is not allowed in a hospital, yet, Legacy Mt. Hood has no smoking signs about every three feet in the entrance area! They even have signs saying, "No smoking past this point" in the designated crosswalks and side walks.

As far as people getting "sketchy,"I am not really all that concerned. LikeI asked the security guard after he told me that my side arm has caused a lot of alarm, "Did you inform them of Oregon's open carry laws?" People that are "sketchy" need to be informed. Guns or weaponsaregood! Guns and weapons are life savers and notlife takers.Bad people are bad! Bad people take lives anddo notsave lives.

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There are only two areas that I do not carry my hand gun openly where the law allows:

1. In Church
2. In Bars, resturants, or pubs, where I intend to have a drink.

#2 is probably obvious and I posted my beliefs about that above. However, church, I carry my pistol concealed. I thought about open carry once of twice but I attend a large church and like the fact that I am somewhatananymous and carrying a gun surely would take away my ananymousness!

I never leave home without my pistol. What good is having a concealed weapon permit if you leave your gun at home?

To carry open is just a fringe benefit to me not to mention my 2nd amendment right.

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Yeah, church...

I don't want to be a distraction from the pastor's message. Once my CHL comes, I may consider CC.

And alcohol and dangerous weapons definitely don't mix. You want a clear head before considering using them.

Also, how about... POLICE STATIONS?

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Hospital follow up:

I got an email back from OFF and their stance is "they can ask you to leave." The leason learned here is ORS 164.265--Tresspass while in possestion of a firearm. This is a misdemeanor. If convicted of this one, good bye concealed weapon permit for five years!

So, because the entrance door is not posted, they could not charge me that day but I have been warned.

I received a PM message and the person brought up ORS 166.360 and 166.370. The lesson learned here is that public building is defined in 166.360 and the crime is defined in 166.370. Yes, it is against the law to have a loaded gun in a hospital. However, if you have a concealed weapon permit, you are exempt.

All good information for me. In thinking back about the security gurard who was a cop, he was relying on the law that you could not have a loaded gun at a hospital. I probably would have been charged with a crime had I not had a concealed weapon permit. So, I am now glad I showed him my concealed weapon permit.

I called P. Cambpell Groner III--Chief Legal Officer and Compliance Officer for Legacy Hospital Systems--and talked to Beverly his assistant.

I told her about the incident. She asked if I got names of the employess involved. She was impressed that they did not give me any names; i.e., we will look into that.

Beverly also said this issue is not new to her or the Hospital.

She was sure there was a written policy but did not know for sure. She was going to make some calls and get back to me.

I did some research on their web site and did a search for "weapon, weapons, weapon free zone, firearms, and gun" and only found one reference to biological weapons. Beverly found that quite interesting and thanked me for bringing that to her attention.

I am going to get to the bottom of the "Weapon Free Zone" statement before it is over!

To be continued.....

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OK, I got the answer I have been looking for from Legacy Health Care Systems.

The chief of security called me back after I talked with Becky. The chief has a different last name so I could not write it down correctly, ok, I just do not remember it :?

Anyway, he went on with a long list of how he is a 2nd amendment supporter, NRA member, been in the military, and a concealed weapon license holder. Yadayadayada....

The he explained to me the hospital was family and that like anyone's family they live in a home. And that home is private property. No I am not exagerating about the family aspect of the conversation.

Point being, the hospital is on private property; Ok.

Then told me he took his daughter out to see a movie and the movie theater had a "No weapons" sign posted. He thought that was strange. So do I, and have heard this before. I would probably carry concealed in a movie house anyway. You cannot see someone comming at you and there are people really close behind you...if they knew you had a gun, a bad guy might want to try and take it from via suprise attack.

He went to explain why the hospital is a "Weapon Free Zone." He said there is a lot of gang activity in their system. He said a patientshot and killed a nurse in Seattle. Legacy had someone come in via ambulance pulled a gun and shot the emergency room doctor.

So, the reason for the "'Weapon Free Zone' is there is a lot of violence in hospitals."

I told him he just gave me the best excuse I could have for wanting to carry a gun in a hospital. I asked him, "Do you think the people that killed that nurse and doctor cared about your "Weapon Free Zone?" I said it was fairly obvious that they did not obey your signs. I said bad people do not care about your signs or policies.

The real clincher came when I told him that the security men on staff at Legacy Health Care Systems are NOT allowed to carry weapons. What good are they going to be is someone is pointed a deadly weapon at me or my SO? He had to agree.

The culture at the hospitals is that anyone with a gun is a bad man. They think that guns or weapons are the "root of all evil." And by putting up signs banning the evil weapon demon,the weapond demon will stayout of their midst. Sad, sad, sadly mistaken people.

The one thing that I thought was odd is that the cheif security officer said that it is the hospitals policy not to give out the written policy and that if I wanted to see it in writting, I would have to get a court order. Strange.

I wonder if myself, kids, or SO, were to be harmed by a weapon in the hospital if I could sue them for not protecting me with their security people or policy? That if I had my weapon, I could have protect myself or loved ones? I hope I never find out!

Oh, the cheif security officer started talking to me about signage he said that there is no sign that people cannot jump off the roof top either.....Common Sence.....I countered about the smoking issue. He had to agree with me again and stated so....

The security cheif is making an inspection at the property at Legacy Mt Hood Medical Center tomorrow and said he will have signs posted.

If the signs are posted, I do not know if I want to go to court and get the written policy from them....kind of pointless.

I learned a lot from this experience and glad I went through it. I known more about my states gun laws now and will be able to know more confidently when I can exercise my right to self-defense.

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I am not a lawyer but I think the key here is that unless you are asked to leave on a particular instance you are not trespassing even if you ignore their signs. It's a legal issue so read the laws, consult an attorney if you feel you should, but I don't think you can be cited for trespass just for walking past signs while armed.

Now if they say to you "you're trespassing, please leave and don't come back" or "you are trespassing, please leave and don't come back armed" it mightbe different. I'm not sure if you have to actually be handed a document of some sort to be prevented from later visits without a new trespass warning.

I was once told by a hospital security officer "you can't have that, we hav a no weapons policy" while pointing to the folding boxcutter on my pants pocket. I said "this" while pointing to it and he said "yes, you'll have to leave that in your car". So I dutifully took the boxxcutter to my car and didn't bother to ask him about the 9mm pistol in my jacket. Afterall, he was carrying a pistol so there were obviously exceptions.

I was on the line but being on the line is not crossing the line. His statement "you'll have to leave THAT in your car" was complied with and I returned.

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We-the-People wrote:

I am not a lawyer but I think the key here is that unless you are asked to leave on a particular instance you are not trespassing even if you ignore their signs. It's a legal issue so read the laws, consult an attorney if you feel you should, but I don't think you can be cited for trespass just for walking past signs while armed.

Now if they say to you "you're trespassing, please leave and don't come back" or "you are trespassing, please leave and don't come back armed" it mightbe different. I'm not sure if you have to actually be handed a document of some sort to be prevented from later visits without a new trespass warning.

I was once told by a hospital security officer "you can't have that, we hav a no weapons policy" while pointing to the folding boxcutter on my pants pocket. I said "this" while pointing to it and he said "yes, you'll have to leave that in your car". So I dutifully took the boxxcutter to my car and didn't bother to ask him about the 9mm pistol in my jacket. Afterall, he was carrying a pistol so there were obviously exceptions.

I was on the line but being on the line is not crossing the line. His statement "you'll have to leave THAT in your car" was complied with and I returned.

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You make a good point, people, about trespassing. I have gone into at least three places that have had signs about loaded weapons with my firearm concealed. I figure it is better to be safe than dead. If there was a situation that required deadly force, and there were signs at least I would be alive to fight for my rights than be a dead victim and join the likes of the 32 in Virgina.

The cheif security officer of the hospital told me I could not even carry a pocket knife in the hospital. I laughed. He was not impressed. But I turned the subject back to guns because this was the real issue I wanted to address. But it is funny about the pocket knife. How you going to enforce that one? And they rarely do enforce it.

I suppose that if violence keeps erupting at hospitals they will put metal dectors in place and we will have to put our belonging through x-rays just like at the airport and court houses.

I find it really sad. If they would just realize that "the right of the people to bare arms" is the bestto maintain safety.

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djhawes wrote:

I suppose that if violence keeps erupting at hospitals they will put metal dectors in place and we will have to put our belonging through x-rays just like at the airport and court houses.

I find it really sad. If they would just realize that "the right of the people to bare arms" is the bestto maintain safety.

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When it comes to that, we need to look into just how much public funding goes into a particular location. Substantial funding or political body control = PUBLIC ENTITY = PUBLIC PROPERTY

If the government is highly involved in the financing and/or running of any enterprise, then it becomes defacto public property. Unfortunately, that argument has to be made in court.

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Where does this idea that private businesses must provide us with copies of their written policies come from? And if they don't, it's "strange"? Why should it be strange for a private business to seek to keep it's internal documents secret, particularly ones that relate to site security?

Also ,where does this idea that only the PIC can trespass someone come from? Again, it's a private business, and any employee has the legal authority to ask someone to leave. The internal policies of the business are no matter and none of our business.

You have a license to be at the hospital by virtue of the fact that it's open to the public. License which can be taken away on the spot by the manager or any other employee. They can revoke this license without regard to circumstance and enforce any code of conduct on you which they at their sole discretion choose. If you're not agreeable, your only recourse at the moment is to leave. It's private property, and they can change their policy whenever they want, as many times as they want, for any reason they want. And it doesn't have to be in writing and it doesn't have to be a manager.

This melodramatic affront that some of our more strident OCDO members take when not kowtowed to by merchants and others is really off-putting.

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deanf wrote:

Where does this idea that private businesses must provide us with copies of their written policies come from? And if they don't, it's "strange"? Why should it be strange for a private business to seek to keep it's internal documents secret, particularly ones that relate to site security?

Also ,where does this idea that only the PIC can trespass someone come from? Again, it's a private business, and any employee has the legal authority to ask someone to leave. The internal policies of the business are no matter and none of our business.

You have a license to be at the hospital by virtue of the fact that it's open to the public. License which can be taken away on the spot by the manager or any other employee. They can revoke this license without regard to circumstance and enforce any code of conduct on you which they at their sole discretion choose. If you're not agreeable, your only recourse at the moment is to leave. It's private property, and they can change their policy whenever they want, as many times as they want, for any reason they want. And it doesn't have to be in writing and it doesn't have to be a manager.

This melodramatic affront that some of our more strident OCDO members take when not kowtowed to by merchants and others is really off-putting.

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Well, deanf, it is not as if we are going to NAPA to buy auto parts or “deanf’s” peanut shop to purchase peanuts. We are talking about a hospital that is open to the public and prides itself on “diversity.” You cannot go to NAPA or “deanf’s” peanut shop and purchase an appendix removal; so there is not a lot of choice as to which particular business you wishto patronize.

I just believe that an INSTITUTION like a hospital would make its written policies available to the public. There was no harm in asking. Besides, maybe the chief executive officer might not know what the “deanfs” are doing at the bottom of the food chain. It is like the “bottom” feeders at Wal-Mart askingpatrons that were carrying their weapons openly to leave. Once the chief executive officers were informed that the “bottom “ feeders were acting against Wal-Marts PRIVATE BUSINESS policy, patrons were, and are allowed, to carry their handguns openly in Wal-Mart stores in Oregon. The “bottom” feeders were informed of Wal-Mart’s open carry policy.

If I had a business and found that someone like you, deanf, were asking my paying patrons to leave because you believed that carrying a firearm in MY BUISNESS was not allowed, you would not work for me very long. Employees do the bidding of the employer and that usually DOES NOT include turning paying customers away, especially in this economy. We usually ask for the "person in charge" because he/she should be informed of, and know, the OWNERS policy.

The only melodramatic affront here is that you, presumptuously, put hospitals in the same catagoryasmerchants. They are not in the same category. And yes, universities, schools, police departments, and other PUBLIC buildings should “kowtow” to the citizens; WE PAY THE BILLS. THOSE ARE OUR INSTITUIONS and we have a right to defend ourselves in them. We have the God given right to defend ourselves wherever we are legally able to be at any given moment.

On an update, I talked with, Aron, the director of security for Legacy Healthcare Systems, and he could not tell me why the policies were not made public. He was also open to the idea that I present my case to him as to why citizensshould be allowed to carry weapons at the hospital and he said to CC the director of the hospital and maybe we can convince them to change the policy.

The idea is that we have a God given right to protect ourselves wherever we are at any given moment. To their own admission, “Hospitals are violent places.” I want to be able to protect myself and my loved ones while being there. But, I am going to do it LEGALLY, and through proper channels!

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deanf wrote:

Also ,where does this idea that only the PIC can trespass someone come from? Again, it's a private business, and any employee has the legal authority to ask someone to leave. The internal policies of the business are no matter and none of our business.

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Mostly because it's the law:

§ 164.20 Definitions for ORS 164.205 to 164.270

[...]

(3) "Enter or remain unlawfully" means:

[...]

(b) To fail to leave premises that are open to the public after being lawfully directed to do so by the person in charge;

[...]

(5) "Person in charge" means a person, a representative or employee of the person who has lawful control of premises by ownership, tenancy, official position or other legal relationship. "Person in charge" includes, but is not limited to the person, or holder of a position, designated as the person or position-holder in charge by the Governor, board, commission or governing body of any political subdivision of this state.

REF: https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/164.205.html

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At first blush, this appears to support your position.

But look closely.

It refers to a singular Person (not persons). Who is in Charge. They are the representative or employee of whoever legally controls the private property, through ownership, tenancy, official position or other legal relationship.

This would be the person who exists on-site to apply the policy of the legal controller of said private property. Not every employee at the location.

So who 'owns' the hospital?

Today Oregon-based Legacy Health is a not-for-profit, tax-exempt corporation comprising five full-service hospitals and a children's hospital.

REF: http://www.legacyhealth.org/body.cfm?id=456

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A not-for-profit corporation.

So it's perfectly reasonable to request a copy of the corporation's policy concerning public access to their facilities.

If an employee is stating their personal opinion whether or not they think you should be carrying openly in their facility, they are not necessarily representing the policies of their employer. They have no legal authority to evict you based on their personal preferences. It has to come from the PIC to be legal.

I was just at the Sherwood's first Chief's Chat last night. A resident complained that someone had driven their car down a jogging trail so they could pick berries. There were there for over five hours. There is a local ordinance prohibiting motorized vehicles on the jogging trails, but no signs posted (yet).

The police showed up but determined that they were unable to secure a conviction (due to the fact there was no signage) and basically let the people get away with it.

If the hospital posts a "Gun Free Zone" sign, then this debate is over.

Until then, the PIC (and not any random employee) needs to inform anyone that they are trespassing with a firearm.

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Or, another idea they can do - have a printed copy of the official policy on appropriate letterhead. Any employee could show you the official policy and say here, this is the policy, please comply.

The reason why this PIC thing is so important - we've heard of many, many times - Walmart's a good example - of where an employee thinks they know policy but doesn't, and tries to enforce it incorrectly.

As private corporations/business they are free to make any legal policy they desire, and refuse service to any person they want to. But proper notification of relevant policies is required before any legal proceedings can begin.

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The posting of signs is not legally binding on a "guest". You have to be personally told to leave. I ignore signs routinely. Here in Medford there are "firearms prohibited" signs on the entrances City buildings, the (OLD) Courthouse where many of the county offices are, and many other locations. Those signs almost invariably say "No firearms except law enforcement officers". Well, they are wrong and anyone with a CHL can legally carry openly or concealled in those places. Someone without a CHL can't but the signs don't mention the exemption for CHL holders.

Sportsmans warehouse here has a sign which is poorly worded considering their policy and it implies that lawful open carry can not be done unless your firearm is checked at the customer service desk and empty. Their POLICY is that legal open carry is fine just keep it holstered or you need to have it checked. Management has told me open carry is fine but several employees have made statements such as "you can't open carry here".

As for signs at hospitals, since I'm not going to go check on whether they are public or private, I simply carry concealled and walk past the signs. IF they were to find out that I was carrying and ask me to leave, I would do so and then look up their legal standing (i.e. public or not).

As for "person in charge". To be on the safe side I figure if it's a manager, sercurity, officer of the company, etc. then they're "in charge enough for me". Joe at the door, a simple cashier, etc. is going to have to get a supervisor. Said supervisor will be given a "no guns-no money" card if they say no guns.

The way I see it. If you have a business with an invitation to the general public to come in and spend their money, it's a public place and the law should (but doesn't yet) so state that. You're personal home? Totally different. A rental home that you lease to someone, you should have no say.

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Autoym and We the People, I really appreciate your responses to deanf. It has really made me think not to react emotionally with these uninformed people. I have to remember to respons with reasonableness and the law and not come off half baked!

Deanf is from Washington and according to his profile he works within the healthcare system. However, in reading some of his posts on the Washington side, I think he was just adjitating the situation for effect. However, it was fun.

Ok, I do not go into the hospital enough to want to fight this one. I am really busy and getting ready for school so I may not pursue this one any further.

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Unless you are a hospital worker, or are expecting a baby, I honestly can't think of a 'good' time to go to the hospital.

My hat's off to those who do work there - it's mostly a thankless job, and they get to deal with people on their worst days (much like the police).

Generally, Open Carry Advocates are trying to do the right thing while protecting themselves and their own from potential threats. Those threats don't go away when you enter a hospital, church, gym, or similar place where society says it's 'improper' to carry a gun.

Perhaps it's too much of a hassle, sometimes, to Open Carry in these places. I know I don't in my church, because I don't want 'me-having-a-gun' be the issue - I want whatever the pastor is preaching on to be the issue. Once my CHL arrives (due anytime now), I'll be shopping for a Sunday-Go-To-Meeting-IWB-Holster.

I do know that if even one person had a gun in that gym in Tennessee back in August, we'd have a lot fewer casualties there.

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I learned a lesson that is sort of on topic today.

The reason I OC is to ensure that people realize that there are people legally carrying guns in this society. I have a CHL but when it's cnocealled, I feel like I'm betraying the second amendment because I'm hiding it and because people don't see it they just assume that there aren't any guns around (legal or otherwise). Openly carrying opens their eyes to the fact that there ARE guns around, makes them ask questions (at the very least in their minds), and causes thought and contemplation of the issue.

Well today I had to go to a VA office in a strip mall. Since there is an uninformed consensus that carrying firearms in a federal facilityand even their leased buildings and offices is against the law (this is a BIG can or worms worthy of it's own web site) and that is incorrectly upheld by the courts, I figure I can't win that battle. Today however, instead of leaving my gun and holster in the car (or at home whendriving onto a federal facility) I only left the gun and kept the holster on. I hadFAR MORE looks and second looks with the empty holster than I get with the gun in it.

I'll be carrying an empty holster into all the places that I'm not allowed, by law or private property policy, from now on. In fact I'm looking forward to my next visit to the VA facility I drive onto because they're "just gonna know" I left the gun in my car and want to search it.

It won't serve to defend myself but it will draw attention to the cause and the stupidity of policies that prevent law abiding citizens from carrying lawfully.