Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: Proposed SB-747 Allow CPL holders to carry on campuses

  1. #1
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    Sen. Richardville introduces legislation to help make college campuses safer

    Friday, August 21, 2009

    LANSING — Sen. Randy Richardville today introduced bipartisan legislation that would help make college campuses safer by allowing CCW permit holders to carry a weapon on college campuses.

    “Crimes occur on college campuses just like any other place,” said Richardville, R-Monroe. “Students, faculty and visitors, who have permits and have undergone the proper training and background checks, should have the right to carry a concealed weapon for their protection while on campus.”

    Senate Bill 747, sponsored by Richardville, would remove college campuses from the no-carry zones for concealed weapons. This would allow individuals with CCW permits to carry a weapon at a Michigan college or university campus.

    “Unfortunately, our nation has seen an increase in horrific shootings on college campuses in the last few years,” Richardville said. “Those who receive the training and have been authorized to carry concealed weapons should be allowed to protect themselves against this type of violence.”

    According to Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, 24 states prohibit the carrying of concealed weapons on campus by those with a valid permit, while 15 states allow colleges and universities to decide.

    The state of Utah has allowed licensed individuals to have concealed handguns on college campuses since 2006. Colorado State University has permitted it since 2003 and Blue Ridge Community College in Virginia since 1995.

    Several organizations in favor of gun rights support Richardville’s legislation.

    “The National Rifle Association doesn’t believe in arbitrary boundaries, and we look forward to working with the Michigan Legislature to protect the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding gun owners everywhere,” said Darin Goens, NRA’s Michigan state liaison. “If law-abiding gun owners go through the scrutiny, extensive background checks, training and all the legal channels to obtain a right-to-carry permit, they should be able to carry those firearms.”

    Steven W. Dulan, J.D., a member of the Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners board of directors and legal counsel for the foundation, said: “Tragedies such as the Virginia Tech massacre prove beyond all doubt that murderers do not honor so-called ‘pistol free zones.’ Only law-abiding citizens are disarmed by such rules. Senator Richardville’s bill is one more step toward extending the benefits of liberty and safety to more of our citizens in more places. We fully support his effort.”

    Sens. Cameron S. Brown, R-Fawn River Township; Alan Cropsey, R-DeWitt; Mark Jansen, R-Gaines Township; Michelle McManus, R-Lake Leelanau; Bruce Patterson, R-Canton; and Jim Barcia, D-Bay City; co-sponsored the legislation.

    The bill has been referred to the Senate Judiciary Committee for further consideration.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    The bill would eliminate this CEZ;

    (STRIKE) (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college,or university.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    President, CLSD, Inc., Oxford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,073

    Post imported post

    We will have to keep on eye on this.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    I see 2 problems. First is the fact that I oppose the concealed carry permit system because it's as unconstitutional as it is unfair, and I don't like the idea of extra privileges for those who can afford them that the government isn't out to get. I made the evil choice to get one since 300 dollars is a lot cheaper than lawyer fees, but I still resent CPL's in no small way.

    The other thing, is that even if I liked this bill and would support it, it would have to expand preemption to be worth a damn, and I can't find any hint that it would. From the looks of it, if it was passed, if I concealed carried to one of my college classes, I could be expelled if anyone found out. Same as if I legally open carried to class now.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    Michigander wrote:
    I see 2 problems. First is the fact that I oppose the concealed carry permit system because it's as unconstitutional as it is unfair, and I don't like the idea of extra privileges for those who can afford them that the government isn't out to get. I made the evil choice to get one since 300 dollars is a lot cheaper than lawyer fees, but I still resent CPL's in no small way.

    The other thing, is that even if I liked this bill and would support it, it would have to expand preemption to be worth a damn, and I can't find any hint that it would. From the looks of it, if it was passed, if I concealed carried to one of my college classes, I could be expelled if anyone found out. Same as if I legally open carried to class now.

    Good points, I just wrote the good Senator and brought up your concerns. I'll post any response. I encourage others to as well. Be sure to include you address in your emails, he will respond first to his constituents.

    senrichardville@senate.michigan.gov
    Dear SenatorRichardville:

    I applaud your bill to strike out the prohibition against carrying a concealed firearm in a college classroom or dorm. However CPL holders will still not be able to carry on college campuses because colleges are allowed to ban firearms altogether. Colleges are not covered specifically under the state preemption 123.1102 law which describes what a local municipality is and colleges are not define as such. So until colleges are covered under MCL 123.1102 they will continue to ban firearms from their campuses.

    Your bill also doesn't address the open carry of a handgun without a CPL. While a CPL is a privilege granted by the state the open carry of a handgun is a right covered under the state's constitution. If colleges were covered under preemption then non-CPL holders could exercise their rights as well.

    As you know MSU has allowed CPL holders to carry concealed in part because they felt they could not win if challenged under the state's preemption law. But other universities and colleges are taking the position that they do not fall under the preemption act.

    I encourage you to work and get public universities and colleges under preemption.



    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    More and more recently I'm coming to accept that incremental attempts at regaining rights is the key to actually getting them back. Frankly, when you think about it, any bill that would allow preemptively legal unlicensed classroom OC would probably go down in flames at this point. My feelings on CPL's will not change, but I think I've just about come to terms with the fact that we can't have it all at once.

    I'm going to write the senator, and encourage pro gun friends to do the same.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Union, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    15

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    The bill would eliminate this CEZ;

    (STRIKE) (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college,or university.


    Do you know this part for sure? Did you see this or are you just guessing? That would be great if this were also part of the bill seeing as how it would be pretty useless for me to carry on campus if I couldn't even go to classes with it.

  8. #8
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    SA-XD wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    The bill would eliminate this CEZ;

    (STRIKE) (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college,or university.


    Do you know this part for sure? Did you see this or are you just guessing? That would be great if this were also part of the bill seeing as how it would be pretty useless for me to carry on campus if I couldn't even go to classes with it.
    Yes for sure, go here to read changes.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...9-SIB-0747.htm

    But if the college bans firearms you couldn't carry anywhere anyways. So it's not that helpful.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    S E Michgan all mine, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    800

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    I see 2 problems. First is the fact that I oppose the concealed carry permit system because it's as unconstitutional as it is unfair, and I don't like the idea of extra privileges for those who can afford them that the government isn't out to get. I made the evil choice to get one since 300 dollars is a lot cheaper than lawyer fees, but I still resent CPL's in no small way.

    The other thing, is that even if I liked this bill and would support it, it would have to expand preemption to be worth a damn, and I can't find any hint that it would. From the looks of it, if it was passed, if I concealed carried to one of my college classes, I could be expelled if anyone found out. Same as if I legally open carried to class now.

    Good points, I just wrote the good Senator and brought up your concerns. I'll post any response. I encourage others to as well. Be sure to include you address in your emails, he will respond first to his constituents.

    senrichardville@senate.michigan.gov
    Dear SenatorRichardville:

    I applaud your bill to strike out the prohibition against carrying a concealed firearm in a college classroom or dorm. However CPL holders will still not be able to carry on college campuses because colleges are allowed to ban firearms altogether. Colleges are not covered specifically under the state preemption 123.1102 law which describes what a local municipality is and colleges are not define as such. So until colleges are covered under MCL 123.1102 they will continue to ban firearms from their campuses.

    Your bill also doesn't address the open carry of a handgun without a CPL. While a CPL is a privilege granted by the state the open carry of a handgun is a right covered under the state's constitution. If colleges were covered under preemption then non-CPL holders could exercise their rights as well.

    As you know MSU has allowed CPL holders to carry concealed in part because they felt they could not win if challenged under the state's preemption law. But other universities and colleges are taking the position that they do not fall under the preemption act.

    I encourage you to work and get public universities and colleges under preemption.



    remember ?‏





    From:
    jay jay

    Sent:
    Tue 6/30/09 1:05 PM

    To:
    john manor (jmanor@senate.michigan.gov)




    .

    Please pass on to Randy Thank you What is Legal CPL course ? http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=20255&forum_id=30&jump_t o=464519

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1

    Post imported post

    The law says you can't carry in "A dormitory or class room of a community college, college, or university" they word campus never appears in the law. So, according to the language of the law, it is only illegal to conceal carry in a classroom or dormitory of a college. Where does the campus of a college fall into this law?

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    jrw123 wrote:
    The law says you can't carry in "A dormitory or class room of a community college, college, or university" they word campus never appears in the law. So, according to the language of the law, it is only illegal to conceal carry in a classroom or dormitory of a college. Where does the campus of a college fall into this law?
    This law? Nowhere. But what good is carrying if you can't carry in the place you live (dorm) or the classrooms?


    There's another law where campuses need to be added, and that's Michigan's Preemption law. (MCL 123.1102)

  12. #12
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    jrw123 wrote:
    The law says you can't carry in "A dormitory or class room of a community college, college, or university" they word campus never appears in the law. So, according to the language of the law, it is only illegal to conceal carry in a classroom or dormitory of a college. Where does the campus of a college fall into this law?
    Colleges can ban firearms. So if you can't carry any firearms on campus because of their ordinance, then having the state say you can doesn't really do much good.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Farmington Hills, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    538

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    Colleges can ban firearms. So if you can't carry any firearms on campus because of their ordinance, then having the state say you can doesn't really do much good.
    Sorry about being nitpicky (but I'm going to be anyway :P), but I believe you meant to say:

    "Colleges can ban firearms. So if you can't carry any firearms on campus because of their ordinance, then having the state not say you can't doesn't really do much good."

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Farmington Hills, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    538

    Post imported post

    Let me put this out there...while the proposed legislation doesn't actually yield the intended result, it may be an important incremental step toward that end. It's certainly a step in the right direction. Also, if this bill is passed to a roaring amount of fanfare, then it may give colleges the push they need to alter their own ordinances.

    Separately, I was under the impression than MSU, UM, and WSU were the only universities that had some kind of special designation in the MI Constitution. Are they the only ones that have banned firearms? What about EMU, CMU, WMU, MTU, and all the rest?

  15. #15
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    WMU has signs up everywhere and can at least ban them for students as it is in the handbook. And they can exspell you for it!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Farmington Hills, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    538

    Post imported post

    This happened in Virginia, but it's right on topic. The issue is a gentleman carrying openly on a small community college campus for a town hall mtg to discuss health care. The sheriff asks him to step outside and remove his sidearm bacause "they don't allow guns on campus." There's no VA law prohibiting that and it's state/public property so firearms carry would otherwise be legal, but there is an administrative rule forbidding, presumably, that students/employees do not carry firearms. So he points out that this is an administrative rule and has no authority over him since he's not a student. Whole encounter lasted less than 3 minutes and he goes back inside for the mtg.

    So, this begs the question, if a Michigan college bans the possession of firearms on campus, we should see if the prohibition is for students, faculty/staff, and/or the general public. Food for thought.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/30107.html


  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Farmington Hills, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    538

    Post imported post

    autosurgeon wrote:
    WMU has signs up everywhere and can at least ban them for students as it is in the handbook. And they can exspell you for it!
    So the question then is, since I'm not a WMU student, does their prohibition apply to me?


  18. #18
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    NO it should not as the CPL statute says only Dorms and Classrooms are off limits.

    Someone else chime in if I am wrong or you have more info!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    CoonDog wrote:
    This happened in Virginia, but it's right on topic.* The issue is a gentleman carrying openly on a small community college campus for a town hall mtg to discuss health care.* The sheriff asks him to step outside and remove his sidearm bacause "they don't allow guns on campus."* There's no VA law prohibiting that and it's state/public property so firearms carry would otherwise be legal, but there is an administrative rule forbidding, presumably, that students/employees do not carry firearms.* So he points out that this is an administrative rule and has no authority over him since he's not a student.* Whole encounter lasted less than 3 minutes and he goes back inside for the mtg.

    So, this begs the question, if a Michigan college bans the possession of firearms on campus, we should see if the prohibition is for students, faculty/staff, and/or the general public.* Food for thought.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/30107.html
    Except that in Michigan, many colleges have municipal authority over its jurisdiction, meaning they can create ordinances that carry jailtime. This isn't the same in Virginia, and they apply to everyone in the jurisdiction.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Farmington Hills, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    538

    Post imported post

    NO it should not as the CPL statute says only Dorms and Classrooms are off limits.

    Someone else chime in if I am wrong or you have more info!
    I was referring to the school's policy, not the CPL requirement. How do I know if WMU's policy refers to me as Joe-public walking around?


    Except that in Michigan, many colleges have municipal authority over its jurisdiction, meaning they can create ordinances that carry jailtime. This isn't the same in Virginia, and they apply to everyone in the jurisdiction.
    What I was trying to get at is that we should examine campuses like we do with other municipalities and examine them individually. It would be a mistake to make a blanket assumption that each and every campus either 1) bans firearms possession or, 2) that their policies include unaffiliated visitors, i.e. non-students, non-faculty/staff.


    Say I want to visit the campus of WMU. I should investigate the firearms policy at WMU prior to my visit to see if they have an ordinance against firearms possession. So here's what I find:

    Weapons on campus No person shall possess on university property any firearms or other dangerous weapons with the exception of police officers, transfer agents licensed to carry weapons and persons using any such weapons for class instruction when authorized by the dean of the appropriate college.
    Any student, faculty member or other university employee violating this rule shall be subject to suspension or dismissal. Any person violating this rule will be subject to criminal prosecution.
    (Approved by Board of Trustees June 11, 1971; administrative revisions 6/99)
    I haven't found the text for what a person would be criminally prosecuted. AFAIK, this could be a tresspassing charge rather than a firearms charge. If so, is the college bound by the same requirement that they first have to ask you to leave before charging you with trespassing? If a firearms charge, will this include confiscation of my sidearm or result in suspension of my CPL? For those who regularly frequent campuses, it would be worth discovering the policy in its entirety.

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,446

    Post imported post

    CoonDog wrote:
    NO it should not as the CPL statute says only Dorms and Classrooms are off limits.

    Someone else chime in if I am wrong or you have more info!
    I was referring to the school's policy, not the CPL requirement. How do I know if WMU's policy refers to me as Joe-public walking around?


    Except that in Michigan, many colleges have municipal authority over its jurisdiction, meaning they can create ordinances that carry jailtime. This isn't the same in Virginia, and they apply to everyone in the jurisdiction.
    What I was trying to get at is that we should examine campuses like we do with other municipalities and examine them individually. It would be a mistake to make a blanket assumption that each and every campus either 1) bans firearms possession or, 2) that their policies include unaffiliated visitors, i.e. non-students, non-faculty/staff.


    Say I want to visit the campus of WMU. I should investigate the firearms policy at WMU prior to my visit to see if they have an ordinance against firearms possession. So here's what I find:

    Weapons on campus No person shall possess on university property any firearms or other dangerous weapons with the exception of police officers, transfer agents licensed to carry weapons and persons using any such weapons for class instruction when authorized by the dean of the appropriate college.
    Any student, faculty member or other university employee violating this rule shall be subject to suspension or dismissal. Any person violating this rule will be subject to criminal prosecution.
    (Approved by Board of Trustees June 11, 1971; administrative revisions 6/99)
    I haven't found the text for what a person would be criminally prosecuted. AFAIK, this could be a tresspassing charge rather than a firearms charge. If so, is the college bound by the same requirement that they first have to ask you to leave before charging you with trespassing? If a firearms charge, will this include confiscation of my sidearm or result in suspension of my CPL? For those who regularly frequent campuses, it would be worth discovering the policy in its entirety.
    Below should explain the GRAY area in regards to colleges/universities.

    This is what the MSP and Sgt. Deasy wrote on college campuses. All colleges and universities have the power to enact legal ordinances with the power of law up to misdemeanors. The college could charge anyone under the ordinance. Policies are different, so you need to check the individual college. SO even thought the state may say you can carry anywhere in a college, the college can override that, because they are not under the preemption law.

    Having said that, there are some legal scholars that feel they do fall under preemption but until it's challenged, we don't know it that's true. Many colleges do not want to force the issue and that is why MSU revised their ordinance...to avoid a legal challenge. Others may follow suit.

    The caveat is to search for the ordinance of the college you want to carry at. And remember things are different in regards to students and staff at the individual college, you would have to follow the rules or get fired/suspended.



    The preemption law to which you're referring can be found in MCL 123.1102. That statute generally prohibits a local unit of government from regulating firearms. However, colleges and universities are not local units of government for the purposes of that statute; MCL 123.1101 defines "Local unit of government" as "a city, village, township, or county." Further, various statutesin Chapter 390 of the Michigan Compiled Laws grant state colleges and universities broad authority to enact ordinances (e.g., MCL 390.5 grants that power to the University of Michigan). Therefore, it appears that a university can enact and enforce an ordinance prohibiting a CPL holder from carrying a pistol on campus beyond classrooms and dormitories (see MCL 28.425o - the pistol free zone statute for CPL holders).

    There are a number of non-statutory preemption theories used by the courts. It is possible that a court or the Attorney General may hold that state law does preempt a university ordinance. However, at this time we're not aware of an opinion holding that way.

    Finally, it's worth noting that there's a difference between an ordinance and a policy. A university policy does not carry the force of law, and likely only applies to students, faculty, and employees. If you are a university employee, you are bound by the policy (MCL 28.425n allows employers to prohibit employee CPL holders from carrying at work).

    Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy
    Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section
    714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441
    [/b]


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1

    Post imported post

    just created a username to update this topic

    House Bill 5474

    The bill would amend MCL Secs. 123.1101, 123.1102, and 123.1103 by adding “Institution of Higher Education” to the list of bodies prohibited from making their own gun law.

    so maybe there is no way around the law proposed, unless their policys are not effected by these 2 laws... interesting though lets hear from someone more educated on the topic?

    full article

    http://www.ammoland.com/2009/11/16/e...lege-campuses/

    :celebrate:celebrate

  23. #23
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    987

    Post imported post

    Larson014 - welcome to the forums! Hope you stick around!
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •