Proposed SB-747 Allow CPL holders to carry on campuses

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Sen. Richardville introduces legislation to help make college campuses safer
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Friday, August 21, 2009

LANSING — Sen. Randy Richardville today introduced bipartisan legislation that would help make college campuses safer by allowing CCW permit holders to carry a weapon on college campuses.

“Crimes occur on college campuses just like any other place,” said Richardville, R-Monroe. “Students, faculty and visitors, who have permits and have undergone the proper training and background checks, should have the right to carry a concealed weapon for their protection while on campus.”

Senate Bill 747, sponsored by Richardville, would remove college campuses from the no-carry zones for concealed weapons. This would allow individuals with CCW permits to carry a weapon at a Michigan college or university campus.

“Unfortunately, our nation has seen an increase in horrific shootings on college campuses in the last few years,” Richardville said. “Those who receive the training and have been authorized to carry concealed weapons should be allowed to protect themselves against this type of violence.”

According to Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, 24 states prohibit the carrying of concealed weapons on campus by those with a valid permit, while 15 states allow colleges and universities to decide.

The state of Utah has allowed licensed individuals to have concealed handguns on college campuses since 2006. Colorado State University has permitted it since 2003 and Blue Ridge Community College in Virginia since 1995.

Several organizations in favor of gun rights support Richardville’s legislation.

“The National Rifle Association doesn’t believe in arbitrary boundaries, and we look forward to working with the Michigan Legislature to protect the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding gun owners everywhere,” said Darin Goens, NRA’s Michigan state liaison. “If law-abiding gun owners go through the scrutiny, extensive background checks, training and all the legal channels to obtain a right-to-carry permit, they should be able to carry those firearms.”

Steven W. Dulan, J.D., a member of the Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners board of directors and legal counsel for the foundation, said: “Tragedies such as the Virginia Tech massacre prove beyond all doubt that murderers do not honor so-called ‘pistol free zones.’ Only law-abiding citizens are disarmed by such rules. Senator Richardville’s bill is one more step toward extending the benefits of liberty and safety to more of our citizens in more places. We fully support his effort.”

Sens. Cameron S. Brown, R-Fawn River Township; Alan Cropsey, R-DeWitt; Mark Jansen, R-Gaines Township; Michelle McManus, R-Lake Leelanau; Bruce Patterson, R-Canton; and Jim Barcia, D-Bay City; co-sponsored the legislation.

The bill has been referred to the Senate Judiciary Committee for further consideration.

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The bill would eliminate this CEZ;

(STRIKE) (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college,or university.

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We will have to keep on eye on this. :monkey

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I see 2 problems. First is the fact that I oppose the concealed carry permit system because it's as unconstitutional as it is unfair, and I don't like the idea of extra privileges for those who can afford them that the government isn't out to get. I made the evil choice to get one since 300 dollars is a lot cheaper than lawyer fees, but I still resent CPL's in no small way.

The other thing, is that even if I liked this bill and would support it, it would have to expand preemption to be worth a damn, and I can't find any hint that it would. From the looks of it, if it was passed, if I concealed carried to one of my college classes, I could be expelled if anyone found out. Same as if I legally open carried to class now.

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Michigander wrote:

I see 2 problems. First is the fact that I oppose the concealed carry permit system because it's as unconstitutional as it is unfair, and I don't like the idea of extra privileges for those who can afford them that the government isn't out to get. I made the evil choice to get one since 300 dollars is a lot cheaper than lawyer fees, but I still resent CPL's in no small way.

The other thing, is that even if I liked this bill and would support it, it would have to expand preemption to be worth a damn, and I can't find any hint that it would. From the looks of it, if it was passed, if I concealed carried to one of my college classes, I could be expelled if anyone found out. Same as if I legally open carried to class now.

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Good points, I just wrote the good Senator and brought up your concerns. I'll post any response. I encourage others to as well. Be sure to include you address in your emails, he will respond first to his constituents.

senrichardville@senate.michigan.gov
Dear SenatorRichardville:

I applaud your bill to strike out the prohibition against carrying a concealed firearm in a college classroom or dorm. However CPL holders will still not be able to carry on college campuses because colleges are allowed to ban firearms altogether. Colleges are not covered specifically under the state preemption 123.1102 law which describes what a local municipality is and colleges are not define as such. So until colleges are covered under MCL 123.1102 they will continue to ban firearms from their campuses.

Your bill also doesn't address the open carry of a handgun without a CPL. While a CPL is a privilege granted by the state the open carry of a handgun is a right covered under the state's constitution. If colleges were covered under preemption then non-CPL holders could exercise their rights as well.

As you know MSU has allowed CPL holders to carry concealed in part because they felt they could not win if challenged under the state's preemption law. But other universities and colleges are taking the position that they do not fall under the preemption act.

I encourage you to work and get public universities and colleges under preemption.

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More and more recently I'm coming to accept that incremental attempts at regaining rights is the key to actually getting them back. Frankly, when you think about it, any bill that would allow preemptively legal unlicensed classroom OC would probably go down in flames at this point. My feelings on CPL's will not change, but I think I've just about come to terms with the fact that we can't have it all at once.

I'm going to write the senator, and encourage pro gun friends to do the same.

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Venator wrote:

The bill would eliminate this CEZ;

(STRIKE) (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college,or university.

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Do you know this part for sure? Did you see this or are you just guessing? That would be great if this were also part of the bill seeing as how it would be pretty useless for me to carry on campus if I couldn't even go to classes with it.

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SA-XD wrote:

Venator wrote:

The bill would eliminate this CEZ;

(STRIKE) (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college,or university.

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Do you know this part for sure? Did you see this or are you just guessing? That would be great if this were also part of the bill seeing as how it would be pretty useless for me to carry on campus if I couldn't even go to classes with it.

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Yes for sure, go here to read changes.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2009-2010/billintroduced/Senate/htm/2009-SIB-0747.htm

But if the college bans firearms you couldn't carry anywhere anyways. So it's not that helpful.

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Venator wrote:

Michigander wrote:

I see 2 problems. First is the fact that I oppose the concealed carry permit system because it's as unconstitutional as it is unfair, and I don't like the idea of extra privileges for those who can afford them that the government isn't out to get. I made the evil choice to get one since 300 dollars is a lot cheaper than lawyer fees, but I still resent CPL's in no small way.

The other thing, is that even if I liked this bill and would support it, it would have to expand preemption to be worth a damn, and I can't find any hint that it would. From the looks of it, if it was passed, if I concealed carried to one of my college classes, I could be expelled if anyone found out. Same as if I legally open carried to class now.

Click to expand...

Good points, I just wrote the good Senator and brought up your concerns. I'll post any response. I encourage others to as well. Be sure to include you address in your emails, he will respond first to his constituents.

senrichardville@senate.michigan.gov
Dear SenatorRichardville:

I applaud your bill to strike out the prohibition against carrying a concealed firearm in a college classroom or dorm. However CPL holders will still not be able to carry on college campuses because colleges are allowed to ban firearms altogether. Colleges are not covered specifically under the state preemption 123.1102 law which describes what a local municipality is and colleges are not define as such. So until colleges are covered under MCL 123.1102 they will continue to ban firearms from their campuses.

Your bill also doesn't address the open carry of a handgun without a CPL. While a CPL is a privilege granted by the state the open carry of a handgun is a right covered under the state's constitution. If colleges were covered under preemption then non-CPL holders could exercise their rights as well.

As you know MSU has allowed CPL holders to carry concealed in part because they felt they could not win if challenged under the state's preemption law. But other universities and colleges are taking the position that they do not fall under the preemption act.

I encourage you to work and get public universities and colleges under preemption.

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remember ?‏





From:
jay jay

Sent:
Tue 6/30/09 1:05 PM

To:
john manor (jmanor@senate.michigan.gov)




.

Please pass on to Randy Thank you What is Legal CPL course ? http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=20255&forum_id=30&jump_to=464519

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The law says you can't carry in "A dormitory or class room of a community college, college, or university" they word campus never appears in the law. So, according to the language of the law, it is only illegal to conceal carry in a classroom or dormitory of a college. Where does the campus of a college fall into this law?

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jrw123 wrote:

The law says you can't carry in "A dormitory or class room of a community college, college, or university" they word campus never appears in the law. So, according to the language of the law, it is only illegal to conceal carry in a classroom or dormitory of a college. Where does the campus of a college fall into this law?

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This law? Nowhere. But what good is carrying if you can't carry in the place you live (dorm) or the classrooms?


There's another law where campuses need to be added, and that's Michigan's Preemption law. (MCL 123.1102)

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jrw123 wrote:

The law says you can't carry in "A dormitory or class room of a community college, college, or university" they word campus never appears in the law. So, according to the language of the law, it is only illegal to conceal carry in a classroom or dormitory of a college. Where does the campus of a college fall into this law?

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Colleges can ban firearms. So if you can't carry any firearms on campus because of their ordinance, then having the state say you can doesn't really do much good.

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Venator wrote:

Colleges can ban firearms. So if you can't carry any firearms on campus because of their ordinance, then having the state say you can doesn't really do much good.

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Sorry about being nitpicky (but I'm going to be anyway ), but I believe you meant to say:

"Colleges can ban firearms. So if you can't carry any firearms on campus because of their ordinance, then having the state not say you can't doesn't really do much good."

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Let me put this out there...while the proposed legislation doesn't actually yield the intended result, it may be an important incremental step toward that end. It's certainly a step in the right direction. Also, if this bill is passed to a roaring amount of fanfare, then it may give colleges the push they need to alter their own ordinances.

Separately, I was under the impression than MSU, UM, and WSU were the only universities that had some kind of special designation in the MI Constitution. Are they the only ones that have banned firearms? What about EMU, CMU, WMU, MTU, and all the rest?

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WMU has signs up everywhere and can at least ban them for students as it is in the handbook. And they can exspell you for it!

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This happened in Virginia, but it's right on topic. The issue is a gentleman carrying openly on a small community college campus for a town hall mtg to discuss health care. The sheriff asks him to step outside and remove his sidearm bacause "they don't allow guns on campus." There's no VA law prohibiting that and it's state/public property so firearms carry would otherwise be legal, but there is an administrative rule forbidding, presumably, that students/employees do not carry firearms. So he points out that this is an administrative rule and has no authority over him since he's not a student. Whole encounter lasted less than 3 minutes and he goes back inside for the mtg.

So, this begs the question, if a Michigan college bans the possession of firearms on campus, we should see if the prohibition is for students, faculty/staff, and/or the general public. Food for thought.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/30107.html

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autosurgeon wrote:

WMU has signs up everywhere and can at least ban them for students as it is in the handbook. And they can exspell you for it!

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So the question then is, since I'm not a WMU student, does their prohibition apply to me?

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NO it should not as the CPL statute says only Dorms and Classrooms are off limits.

Someone else chime in if I am wrong or you have more info!

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CoonDog wrote:

This happened in Virginia, but it's right on topic.  The issue is a gentleman carrying openly on a small community college campus for a town hall mtg to discuss health care.  The sheriff asks him to step outside and remove his sidearm bacause "they don't allow guns on campus."  There's no VA law prohibiting that and it's state/public property so firearms carry would otherwise be legal, but there is an administrative rule forbidding, presumably, that students/employees do not carry firearms.  So he points out that this is an administrative rule and has no authority over him since he's not a student.  Whole encounter lasted less than 3 minutes and he goes back inside for the mtg.

So, this begs the question, if a Michigan college bans the possession of firearms on campus, we should see if the prohibition is for students, faculty/staff, and/or the general public.  Food for thought.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/30107.html

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Except that in Michigan, many colleges have municipal authority over its jurisdiction, meaning they can create ordinances that carry jailtime. This isn't the same in Virginia, and they apply to everyone in the jurisdiction.

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NO it should not as the CPL statute says only Dorms and Classrooms are off limits.

Someone else chime in if I am wrong or you have more info!

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I was referring to the school's policy, not the CPL requirement. How do I know if WMU's policy refers to me as Joe-public walking around?

Except that in Michigan, many colleges have municipal authority over its jurisdiction, meaning they can create ordinances that carry jailtime. This isn't the same in Virginia, and they apply to everyone in the jurisdiction.

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What I was trying to get at is that we should examine campuses like we do with other municipalities and examine them individually. It would be a mistake to make a blanket assumption that each and every campus either 1) bans firearms possession or, 2) that their policies include unaffiliated visitors, i.e. non-students, non-faculty/staff.


Say I want to visit the campus of WMU. I should investigate the firearms policy at WMU prior to my visit to see if they have an ordinance against firearms possession. So here's what I find:

Weapons on campus No person shall possess on university property any firearms or other dangerous weapons with the exception of police officers, transfer agents licensed to carry weapons and persons using any such weapons for class instruction when authorized by the dean of the appropriate college.
Any student, faculty member or other university employee violating this rule shall be subject to suspension or dismissal. Any person violating this rule will be subject to criminal prosecution.
(Approved by Board of Trustees June 11, 1971; administrative revisions 6/99)

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I haven't found the text for what a person would be criminally prosecuted. AFAIK, this could be a tresspassing charge rather than a firearms charge. If so, is the college bound by the same requirement that they first have to ask you to leave before charging you with trespassing? If a firearms charge, will this include confiscation of my sidearm or result in suspension of my CPL? For those who regularly frequent campuses, it would be worth discovering the policy in its entirety.