HI OCrs, new here w/a couple of Questions

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Hi, I have read most of the Michigan posts and stories on OC on this forum for last couple of weeks. I have CPL and CC daily. I have OCd in UP while hunting going to restarant, gas station, etc, but not in daily activity.

I may OC after I get more info and are totally prepared as stated in the posts. I'll try to get to a picnic or event soon when I can.

I have a couple of questions:

1) What is the definition of Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry in relationship of what can be seen on body. Is it OC when see part of holster hanging under a shirt? Oris that still concidered CC? Is it CC if part of holster is visible and not any of the gun? Is it OC or CC when you have a holster on totally visible but it has a flap to totally cover the gun?

2) In the reading I have done here I read that OC is OK "On foot", so is on foot defined as on a bicycle or motorcycle? Not really on foot here or is it defined as out of a vehicle?

Thanks and keep up the good work!

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Welcome to the forum!

1) In order to OC, the gun must be in a holster and completely visible and uncovered. Some argue that in IWB holster with the grip obviously in view is OC, which I agree with, but there's been at least one case where someone was charged (and I believe convicted) for CC without a CPL because ho carried like that. Since you have a CPL you don't have to worry about that unless you're in a concealed free zone, in which case you may still open carry under the authority of your CPL.

2) We haven't been able to come up with an answer for this legally. Use the forum's search function to look that one up and you'll find a few threads that discuss it.

There's a lot to learn about open carry laws, so read as much as you can here!

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There are 3 ways to carry.
1. Open carry. Any where it is public w/o alcohol, post office, courts, or posted.
2. Concealed Carry. Any where with in the CC statues, and private property
3. Open carry w/ CPL. Any where But the above and private property

Easy. Any one have anything to add.

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Wglide90 wrote:

1) What is the definition of Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry in relationship of what can be seen on body. Is it OC when see part of holster hanging under a shirt? Oris that still concidered CC? Is it CC if part of holster is visible and not any of the gun? Is it OC or CC when you have a holster on totally visible but it has a flap to totally cover the gun?

2) In the reading I have done here I read that OC is OK "On foot", so is on foot defined as on a bicycle or motorcycle? Not really on foot here or is it defined as out of a vehicle?

Thanks and keep up the good work!

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1) Open Carry = The gun is visible and can be identified as a gun.

Concealed Carry = The gun his hidden and is not visible.

Since you have a CPL you can carry a gun pretty much anywhere you please. Just make sure you know where those places are. Read a few of the post "stickied" at the top of the main page on the forum and become familiar with all of the laws.rules pertaining to carrying a gun.

2)OC is OK on foot, and that really is the only "way" you can OC. The second you sit in/on a vehicle it is considered concealed. This includes a motorcycle. You must have a CPL to get into/on a vehicle and still be carrying a loaded handgun. This includes a motorcycle. Even if you are OCing on a motorcylce, it is still considered concealed. Ridiculous I know, but that is the way the law reads.

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EM87 wrote:

Welcome to the forum!

1) In order to OC, the gun must be in a holster and completely visible and uncovered. Some argue that in IWB holster with the grip obviously in view is OC, which I agree with, but there's been at least one case where someone was charged (and I believe convicted) for CC without a CPL because ho carried like that. Since you have a CPL you don't have to worry about that unless you're in a concealed free zone, in which case you may still open carry under the authority of your CPL.

2) We haven't been able to come up with an answer for this legally. Use the forum's search function to look that one up and you'll find a few threads that discuss it.

There's a lot to learn about open carry laws, so read as much as you can here!

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He was not convicted for CCW, he plead to disorderly person, on a bum rap. The area is still grey in regards to aIWB carry without a cpl. MOC advises to not carry IWB carry without a CPL.

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Hi Guys,

Thanks for the help. I'm pretty OK on the where you can do what as far as OC/CC, from all the great info you regular guys have put in here. I know you have to repeat things many times, so it is appreciated.

1. My main concern is the actual lawful definitions of OC and CC. I wanted to know which mode I was if certain portions of gun/holster was showing. I want to be clear on the difference between the to modes. So your statements here have pretty much confirmed my understanding.

So this is my take: OC is gun is in plain and completeview in a holster.

Then CC would be everthing else. Including printing and showing part of holster, still lawfully CC.

2. The OC'g on bike or motorcycle thing had intregued me since I would understand the law to be prohibitive to OC on bike or motorcycle, since neither is techically "On Foot". So I figured that on any bike wouldn't be OK OC and that On bike it is CC and CPL is need no matter what.

Like you guys saidthat OC/CC w/CPL only really legally matters in the PFZs, so that is why I wanted to know difference of OC/CC.

Thanks again.

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OCing on a motorcyle is technically consideredCC.

Now OC on a bicycle is still up in the air (kinda). We have had this discussion in the past. Some say that a bicylce is not considered a vehicle because you don't insure it, while others have said that it is a vehicle because it is a mode of transportation. I know someone who does not have their CPL and rides a bicycle and has been stopped by LEO's and this was not mentioned, and he was not cited. There is no AG opinion on this matter, or any case to verify, so when I ride a bicycle and OC I keep my CPL and ID on me just to cover all my bases.

IANAL, so none of what I am saying should be taken as legal advice.

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T Vance wrote:

OCing on a motorcyle is technically consideredCC.

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No, OCing in a vehicle ismerely unlawful, the law does not define it as concealed carry, the law just prohibits it or exempts you from the prohibition if you have a CPL. Further, OC'ingon a motorcycle without a CPLmay be unlawful or it may be lawful, depending ultimately on how a jury interpretsand applies the law.

MCL 750.227 says "A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person . . ."

"Concealed or otherwise" obviously indicates that the law recognizes that carry in a vehicle may be concealed or open.

"In a vehicle" to me means in a vehicle and if I were on a jury considering a case where the defendant was open carrying on a motorcycle and he did not have a valid CPL at the time, I would argue to my fellow jurors that the defendant simply was not "in" the motorcycle, therefore the defendant should be acquitted and I will not vote to convict. I am sure I am not the only person in Michigan who is faithful to reading the law plainly and applying it objectively according to what it says, not what I believe it should say or my own personal beliefs one way or the other about an issue.

However, you may get a jury where no one is like that, and they would convict you based on their or the prosecutor's "interpretation" that it extends to motorcycles. So, unless you want to be a "test case", I would recommend not open carrying on a motorcycle if you do not have a CPL.

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DanM wrote:

T Vance wrote:

OCing on a motorcyle is technically consideredCC.

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No, OCing in a vehicle ismerely unlawful, the law does not define it as concealed carry, the law just prohibits it or exempts you from the prohibition if you have a CPL. Further, OC'ingon a motorcycle may be unlawful or it may be lawful, depending ultimately on how a jury interpretsand applies the law.

MCL 750.227 says "A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person . . ."

"Concealed or otherwise" obviously indicates that the law recognizes that carry in a vehicle may be concealed or open.

"In a vehicle" to me means in a vehicle and if I were on a jury considering a case where the defendant was open carrying on a motorcycle and he did not have a valid CPL at the time, I would argue to my fellow jurors that the defendant simply was not "in" the motorcycle, therefore the defendant should be acquitted and I will not vote to convict. I am sure I am not the only person in Michigan who is faithful to reading the law plainly and applying it objectively according to what it says, not what I believe it should say or my own personal beliefs one way or the other about an issue.

However, you may get a jury where no one is like that, and they would convict you based on their or the prosecutor's "interpretation" that it extends to motorcycles. So, unless you want to be a "test case", I would recommend not open carrying on a motorcycle if you do not have a CPL.

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Any gun friendly reps that would ask the AG for an official opinion. AG Cox seems to be pro gun, so I guess he could read it to mean "in" as in the dictionary definition, since the word "in" isn't described in law.

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DanM wrote:

T Vance wrote:

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OCing on a motorcyle is technically consideredCC.

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No, OCing in a vehicle ismerely unlawful, the law does not define it as concealed carry....

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So, unless you want to be a "test case", I would recommend not open carrying on a motorcycle if you do not have a CPL.

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That is what I was basically saying. Kimberguy OC's on his motorcycle, but he has a CPL. So what I was saying was that OCing on a motorcylce is technically considered CC. The gun is considered "concealed" once you sit on a motorcycle even though there are no doors to obstuct the view of the gun and it is still in plain sight and visible to anyone.

So you can carry a gun on a motorcycle in "OC fashion" but just be aware that is considered concealed the moment you sit on a motorcycle or get into a car. As long as you have your CPL you can legally do this. Will the police pull you over if they see you doing this...maybe. It has already happened to one person I know. Can the legally stop you for it...NO, but it may happen. If they did stop you and stated that is the reason they stopped you and you don't have a CPL then technically it should be thrown out because it would be considered an illegal stop.

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T Vance wrote:

That is what I was basically saying. Kimberguy OC's on his motorcycle, but he has a CPL. So what I was saying was that OCing on a motorcylce is technically considered CC. The gun is considered "concealed" once you sit on a motorcycle even though there are no doors to obstuct the view of the gun and it is still in plain sight and visible to anyone.

So you can carry a gun on a motorcycle in "OC fashion" but just be aware that is considered concealed the moment you sit on a motorcycle or get into a car. As long as you have your CPL you can legally do this. Will the police pull you over if they see you doing this...maybe. It has already happened to one person I know. Can the legally stop you for it...NO, but it may happen. If they did stop you and stated that is the reason they stopped you and you don't have a CPL then technically it should be thrown out because it would be considered an illegal stop.

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TYPO, should be "do have a CPL"

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T Vance wrote:

So what I was saying was that OCing on a motorcylce is technically considered CC.

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Who or what considers it "technically CC"? I don't and MCL 750.227 doesn't, as I explained above. OC in a vehicleis justunlawful unless you have a CPL which exempts you, just as OC in a liquor licensed establishment is unlawful unless you have a CPL which exempts you.You are not "technically considered CC"in a vehicle and you are not "technically considered CC" in a liquor licensed establishment, because the law doesn't say that. It just says "you can'tcarry agunin those circumstances unless you are exempted by a CPL".

If you continue to assert that OC on a motorcycle, or in any vehicle, is "technically considered CC" then please cite to law, AG opinion, legislative notes, or other pertinent source where that is expressed. Because I don't find it anywhere. All I see is that the law says that carrying a pistol in a vehicle is prohibited unless you are exempted by having a CPL. Just as carrying a pistol in a liquor licensed establishment is prohibited unless you are exempted by having a CPL.

The gun is considered "concealed" once you sit on a motorcycle

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Same as above, please cite to law, AG opinion, legislative notes, or other pertinent source where that is expressed.

So you can carry a gun on a motorcycle in "OC fashion" but just be aware that is considered concealed the moment you sit on a motorcycle or get into a car.

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Same as above, please cite to law, AG opinion, legislative notes, or other pertinent source where that is expressed. MCL 750.227 does not say carry in a vehicle is "considered concealed", it just says you "shall not" do it (unless exempted by CPL). How many f'ing times do I have to make this point about the plain language of the statute, T Vance?

Also, it prohibits carry "ina vehicle" (without a CPL)and I'm sure I'm not the only one in Michigan who would not vote for conviction because a person on a motorcycle is not in the motorcycle. The only reason I recommend not OC'ing on a motorcycle if you do not have a CPL is that there are 12 or more people in Michigan who do not have enough honesty to apply the law objectively as it is written, and all of your jurors may be composed of such people and they mightsay, "Oh, 'on a vehicle' or 'in a vehicle' . . . I'm just gonna guess whoever wrote the law meant to include 'on' and they just skipped it because they were late for lunch that day. Send him to jail, I say . . .I gotta get home before I miss tonight's episode of my favorite show!"

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That is an interesting perspective DanM has about open carrying on a motorcycle. At first when i read the statue, it seemed that if you are operating a vehicle you cannot carry a firearm open or otherwise......but after reading it several times, i agree with Dan that open carrying a pistol ON a motorcycle would not violate that statute as it clearly states IN a motor vehicle.

it is interesting that you cannot carry a firearm other than a pistol in or on a vehicle. It would clearly not be legal to transport a loaded rifle openly on a motorcycle.

anybody else have a law or AG opinion to the contrary?

I won't open carry on a motorcycle without a cpl, even though i believe it would not violate that statute.

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dougwg wrote:

T Vance wrote:

So you can carry a gun on a motorcycle in "OC fashion" but just be aware that is considered concealed the moment you sit on a motorcycle or get into a car. As long as you have your CPL you can legally do this. Will the police pull you over if they see you doing this...maybe. It has already happened to one person I know. Can the legally stop you for it...NO, but it may happen. If they did stop you and stated that is the reason they stopped you and you don't have a CPL then technically it should be thrown out because it would be considered an illegal stop.

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TYPO, should be "do have a CPL"

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Nope, I meant exactly what I typed. If they stop you ONLYbecause you have a gun it is considered an illegal stop. So if you didn't have your CPL and were breaking the law, it should still be thrown out because the stop was illegal.

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lapeer20m wrote:

That is an interesting perspective DanM has about open carrying on a motorcycle. At first when i read the statue, it seemed that if you are operating a vehicle you cannot carry a firearm open or otherwise......but after reading it several times, i agree with Dan that open carrying a pistol ON a motorcycle would not violate that statute as it clearly states IN a motor vehicle.

it is interesting that you cannot carry a firearm other than a pistol in or on a vehicle. It would clearly not be legal to transport a loaded rifle openly on a motorcycle.

anybody else have a law or AG opinion to the contrary?

I won't open carry on a motorcycle without a cpl, even though i believe it would not violate that statute.

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http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=23648&forum_id=30&highlight=OC+on+a+motorcycle

Bronson

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lapeer20m wrote:

anybody else have a law or AG opinion to the contrary?

I won't open carry on a motorcycle without a cpl, even though i believe it would not violate that statute.

I thought someone talked to SGT. Deasey of the state police, and he said "it IS legal to OC on amotorcycle because it is out in the open."

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[align=left]You can see that this portion of the law says in or upon and also includes self-propelled vehicles (bicycles).[/align]
[align=left]750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.[/align]
[align=left]Sec. 227d. (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:[/align]
[align=left](a) Taken down.[/align]
[align=left](b) Enclosed in a case.[/align]
[align=left](c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.[/align]
[align=left](d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.[/align]
[align=left](2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.[/align]
History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982.

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bigdaddyj wrote:

lapeer20m wrote:

I thought someone talked to SGT. Deasey of the state police, and he said "it IS legal to OC on amotorcycle because it is out in the open."

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Venatar sent him an email, and he responded with

"I don't think the issue is whether bicycles are vehicles - I think they are. The question is whether a person carrying a visible pistol while riding a bicycle is carrying the pistol IN a vehicle as prohibited by MCL 750.227; in order to be guilty of carrying a concealed pistol, a non-CPL holder must be carrying the pistol IN the vehicle.

The Penal Code does not define "in" so I checked a couple dictionaries and found that as an adverb 'in' generally means "on the inside" or "within." Thus, I don't think a person carrying a plainly visible pistol (e.g., housed in a hip-holster) on a bicycle - or [highlight= #88ffff]motorcycle[/highlight] - is carrying the pistol in a vehicle, so they're not guilty of violating MCL 750.227. Contrast that with a person transporting a pistol inside a storage compartment attached to a bicycle or [highlight= #88ffff]motorcycle[/highlight] - in that case they are carrying the pistol IN the vehicle. I think my analysis is supported by the Court's opinion in People v. Nimeth, 236 Mich. App. 616 (1999) (discussing a pistol hidden IN a [highlight= #88ffff]motorcycle[/highlight]).

Further, the purpose of MCL 750.227 "is to protect quarreling persons from being injured by an adversary who might suddenly draw and use a concealed weapon without notice." People v. Emery, 150 Mich. App. 657, 663 (1986). Charging a person on a bicycle or [highlight= #88ffff]motorcycle[/highlight] would hardly be within the purpose of the statute; after all, openly carrying a pistol serves notice that the person is in possession of a pistol.

That said, I am simply relaying our position on the matter. As I've mentioned to you before, the MSP cannot give legal opinions that bind another police agency. So, if someone is concerned about overzealous officers, they should probably play it safe and not openly carry on a bicycle or [highlight= #88ffff]motorcycle[/highlight], or they should get a Concealed Pistol License."

Regards, Sgt. Thomas Deasy
Michigan State Police-Executive Resource Section
714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823
(517) 336-6441

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Springfield Smitty wrote:

[align=left]You can see that this portion of the law says in or upon and also includes self-propelled vehicles (bicycles).[/align]
[align=left]750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.[/align]
[align=left]Sec. 227d. (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:[/align]
[align=left](a) Taken down.[/align]
[align=left](b) Enclosed in a case.[/align]
[align=left](c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.[/align]
[align=left](d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.[/align]
[align=left](2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.[/align]
History: Add. 1981, Act 103, Eff. Mar. 31, 1982.

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According to the dictionary, a bicycle would not be "self-propelled"... i.e. it does not have it's own motor or power; it is propelled by a person.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/self-propelled


N. self-propelled vehicle - a wheeled vehicle that carries in itself a means of propulsion

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/self-propelled+vehicle

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Springfield Smitty wrote:

[align=left]You can see that this portion of the law says in or upon and also includes self-propelled vehicles (bicycles).[/align]


[align=left]750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.[/align]


[align=left]Sec. 227d. (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:[/align]

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It also says "other than a pistol". So as long as you're carrying a registered pistol this doesn't apply.

Bronson