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Thread: Attempted Carjacking In Church Parking Lot - Richmond

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    On the 6o pm news NBC 12 reported that a man attempted to carjack a lady's car in the parking lot of a church which is located near Regency Mall. The report went on to talk about other incidents occurring at other churches in the Richmond. So far NBC 12 has not put the story on their web site nor does it appear that other Richmond media have picked up on this story.

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    NBC 12 has finally put this story on line. http://www.nbc12.com/global/story.asp?s=10971540

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    "good and sufficient cause"
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    Regular Member vt357's Avatar
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    I went to that church for years, my family still goes there. I work just around the corner and occasionally go to the subway across the street for lunch. Crazy.

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    In all fairness to Henrico County, this did happen in Henrico and not in Richmond. Henrico made such a big deal about the post office thing so lets credit them with the crime too.

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    vt357 wrote:
    SNIP I work just around the corner and occasionally go to the subway across the street for lunch.
    Our subways are no good for lunch.One of therails iselectrified. Plays hell with my fillings.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    This story can't be true. Churches and their parking lots are completely safe. That's why we aren't supposed to carry there. Right?

    Does anyone know exactly what Virginia courts have found is "good and sufficient cause"?

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Fenris wrote:
    This story can't be true. Churches and their parking lots are completely safe. That's why we aren't supposed to carry there. Right?

    Does anyone know exactly what Virginia courts have found is "good and sufficient cause"?
    I think carrying a news clipping of this incident in your pocket may qualify as "good and sufficient cause", don't all y'all?

    Semper Paratus
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

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    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    Fenris wrote:
    This story can't be true. Churches and their parking lots are completely safe. That's why we aren't supposed to carry there. Right?

    Does anyone know exactly what Virginia courts have found is "good and sufficient cause"?
    I think carrying a news clipping of this incident in your pocket may qualify as "good and sufficient cause", don't all y'all?

    Semper Paratus
    Not a bad idea.

    I do think at some point the gun needs to become the license."The gun is my license. As long as I've got the gun, Isay when, where, and how I carry it, Mr. Government. Just trytake my license,Mr. Government."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I agree with you on that one, Citizen... I know this isn't an original idea, but how about this one?

    A nice laminated ID card-sized printed copy of the Second Amendment in a nice caligraphy... Something like this:

    SECOND AMENDMENT

    (Permit to Carry Arms; Copyright 1791)

    A well regulated Militia,
    being necessary to the security of a free State,

    the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,
    shall not be infringed.


    On second thought... I may print something like this out on card stock or nice "aged looking" paper, laminate it and carry it in my wallet, right next to my CHP.

    I know this idea is far from original, but I believe it may be a good thing to hand out along with the "OC cards" that are currently in circulation.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    SNIP I agree with you on that one, Citizen...
    Really, its the same mechanismthey are using on us. "We're the government. We have the guns. Do what we say, or else."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  12. #12
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Is that like "We're from the government; we're here to help you..."???
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    This is one more reason that we need to work on having the General Assembly repeal the current law regarding churches. I the mean time several of you over the past months have provided excellent suggestions for handling ourselves while this law is still on the books.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Fenris wrote:
    This story can't be true. Churches and their parking lots are completely safe. That's why we aren't supposed to carry there. Right?

    Does anyone know exactly what Virginia courts have found is "good and sufficient cause"?
    AFAIK there is absolutely no case law regarding the matter. Remember, § 18.2-283 only applies to carrying any of the enumerated itemsat a place of worship while a religious worship service is taking place. Not being apractitioner/adherent of that group I can only guess but my guess would be that there was no religious worhip service taking place at 4:20 PM on Wednesday.

    Further, while not volunteering to be the test case, there is enough history of assault/robberies in/at churches to make "good and sufficient reasaon" rather obvious. Add that the victim was female (again more history of being victimized) and the "goodness" and "sufficiency" are strengthened.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    From another forum where the "good and sufficient reason" clause was being discussed:
    Interesting.You can carry in a place of worship if the religious meeting being held is without good and sufficient reason? Who makes that call?
    A new thought - separation of church and state under 1A nullifies § 18.2-283?

    Anybody want to run with that for a while?

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    I believe that you have nailed it. This law denies a church the right to determine what is permissible on its property.

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    1228 wrote:
    I believe that you have nailed it. This law denies a church the right to determine what is permissible on its property.
    I would think that if the Pastor/Minister etc said you could carry during their services, that would be good and sufficient reason.

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    I didn't respond in detail earlier as I had to make a quick trip up to the western part of the state. The problem which I have with this law as written is that neither does it give any hint as to what reasons might satisfy the law nor does it state who decides if the reasons given satisfy the law. Earlier in other threads some have suggested this may be unconstitutionally vague. That maybe true; however, it will take a judge to decide this.

    Given its current language I believe the law puts us at the mercy of the police, Commonwealth's Attorneys, and judges to make the ultimate decision. Any response which results in these three groups making the decision as to what reasons conform to the law, puts the government in the position of regulating the internal conduct of the church. I believe this is at odds with the 1st Amendment. Lastly, allowing churches to set their own policy regarding firearms is consistent with basic property rights.

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    I would start with the Constitution of Virginia, Article I, Section 16. Then, I would observe that the Commonwealth does not provide for the incorporation of churches, recognizing that they are private congregations of like-minded people, not eligible for Incorporation, so that the State does not discriminate by allowing the rights and privileges of incorporation for some, but not all such congregations. Given that churches are private congregations, their property is also private property. The Commonwealth has no business establishing a law that discriminates against churches and church congregations as a special class of private assembly and property. As with other private property, the decision to allow carry should rest with the leadership and congregation of each church.

    JMO, of course.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Fenris wrote:
    That's why we aren't supposed to carry there. Right?
    Wrong.. (You do what you feel is best for you).. I can't speak for "we" like you did, but when Igo to church, I have good an sufficient reason (Google for PLENTY of examples)and will have my attorney defend me as such.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    I just wanted to correct one of your assumptions regarding churches and incorporation. Some years back Jerry Falwell wanted to make some changes regarding his operations in Lynchburg which involved Thomas Road Baptist Church. Whatever he was trying to do wound up being impossible because of the way churches were regulated.

    He then proceeded to get the the General Assembly to enact a change to the VA Constitution to permit churches to incorporate. When this change was submitted to the voters for approval, it was voted down. Jerry then filed suit in federal court claiming that the VA Constitution was in violation of the US Constitution. Falwell won and now churches may be incorporated in VA. Some churches have incorporated and others have not. Those that have not operate under the traditional rules.

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