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Thread: Bar-b-que Idea

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    We need to hi\old open carry bar-b-que events in major Texas cities, starting with Austin. Call it "Buns and Guns", and invite anyone who cares to attend. The price of admission would be $10 (for food and drink) and a gun on your hip.

    We could invite the media and our state representatives. As long as it's held on private property, or even a shooting range, open-carry would be perfectly legal.



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    jsimmons wrote:
    We could invite the media and our state representatives. As long as it's held on private property, or even a shooting range, open-carry would be perfectly legal.
    No it would not.

    You need to re-read PC 46.02 and 46.035, and see if you can find an exemption for being on private property, other than for the person who owns or controls the property.

    There isn't one.

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    KBCraig wrote:
    jsimmons wrote:
    We could invite the media and our state representatives. As long as it's held on private property, or even a shooting range, open-carry would be perfectly legal.
    No it would not.

    You need to re-read PC 46.02 and 46.035, and see if you can find an exemption for being on private property, other than for the person who owns or controls the property.

    There isn't one.
    This is true. You can't even give permission for anyone to OC on your own property.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    rodbender wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    You need to re-read PC 46.02 and 46.035, and see if you can find an exemption for being on private property, other than for the person who owns or controls the property.

    There isn't one.
    This is true. You can't even give permission for anyone to OC on your own property.
    Dman, Texas laws are sure weird.:shock:

    You're allowed to shoot and killan unarmed thief in your driveway at night but you can't have a OC Bar-B-Que partyon your own property?



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    The way I remember reading it, you can open carry on personal property if you have permission of the property owner. I guess I'll have to go back and re-read it.


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    Well, maybe draw up a document that grants a shared ownership for everyone that attends? It could be written as such that they can't sell it and their ownership expires after the event is over.



    -Gruu

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    jsimmons wrote:
    The way I remember reading it, you can open carry on personal property if you have permission of the property owner. I guess I'll have to go back and re-read it.
    Please do.

    The only thing resembling a "with permission" exemption, is for someone who manages a bar.

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    Lone Star Veteran Gator5713's Avatar
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    Hows this for a loophole:
    (IIRC) you are allowed to open carry for gun related activities such as hunting or a gun show! So would this not qualify as a 'gun related' activity?

    The other exception is 'property you own or that is under your control' Which is what gives me permission to OC on the property that I rent... I don't own it, but it is 'under my control'. Also, when my neighbors go out of town and ask me to 'keep watch' over their property, does that not effectively put their property 'under my control'?

    SO... If we were having a meeting to discuss/promote OC I believe that:
    1) it would be a gun related activity, and
    2) that the members of the 'club' would have de-facto 'control' of the property for the purposes of the event!

    Furthermore, if no complaint by the property owner has been filed, there is not much that the police can do when on PRIVATE property...

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    Well, I'm in Waco so if anyone's seriously planning on an event like this I would be willing to make a 2 hours drive or so to attend.







    -Gruu

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    "Control" over real property premises most certainly can be assigned. "Control" of any premises can be assignedas in a residential/commercial lease. A "day lease" of private property whereby the premises is placed under limited control of designated authorized parties for a specified purpose/eventduring a defined time period should adequately address any concerns .

    The issue then becomes a civil matter subject to the terms of the lease agreement. This lease wouldnot have to be in writing, but the "lessee's" might prefer something in written form conveying "control" to avoid any confusion . The only potential problem I can foresee is if a resturaunt sectionwas merely reserved for the OC event- and other customers felt "threatened" by the armed nature of the event.

    This is STILL TEXAS - not Washington D.C.

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    SANDCREEK wrote:
    "Control" over real property premises most certainly can be assigned. "Control" of any premises can be assignedas in a residential/commercial lease. A "day lease" of private property whereby the premises is placed under limited control of designated authorized parties for a specified purpose/eventduring a defined time period should adequately address any concerns .

    The issue then becomes a civil matter subject to the terms of the lease agreement. This lease wouldnot have to be in writing, but the "lessee's" might prefer something in written form conveying "control" to avoid any confusion . The only potential problem I can foresee is if a resturaunt sectionwas merely reserved for the OC event- and other customers felt "threatened" by the armed nature of the event.

    This is STILL TEXAS - not Washington D.C.
    I wasn't talking about using a restaraunt. I was talking about private property as in a residence or residentially zoned real property.


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    I will consider this at my placeafter talking to my friendly neighborhood attorney about the consequences.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    Ever wonder how gun shop employees, not just the owner, can openly carry? I'm guessing that the below section is the answer. It would also be how we could have a open carry gathering and be legal: have it on rural property with a shooting area. We would be engaging in legal sporting activity on the immediate premises.

    Text of subsection as reenacted by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 647, Sec. 1

    (b)Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

    ...

    (4)is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;


    You generally don't have to go too far out into the country, sodrawing froma given metro area is still possible. ForAustin, as an example, youcould go to the east, south or west portion of Travis County and be outside ofcity limits pretty quickly. Given that many in Austin live in north Austin, I'm sure there are places in southern Williamson County too.

    For D/FW, Ellis and Johnson counties to the south, Dentonto the north, and Parker and Wise to thewest offer opportunities. You could alsohold the gathering at an outdoorgun range in the mid-cities.

    In addition tomembers here, I would invite local politicians and make it a fund raiser for them.Remember that weneed to convince even pro-gun office holders that open carry isn't radical and "back to the old West" (Sen. Duncan). Those that attend will get some $ but more importantly they will see that open carry folks arelaw abiding Texans. Most of us have CHLs andcarry concealed as it is. We simply want the convenience, choice, and yes our constitutional right to opencarry to be restored.

    SA-TX



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    The RIGHT of "CONTROL" of any premises may be delegated through agency, assigned through an assignment, or conveyed by lease agreement.

    The OZ'ies in Austin have never "thought" this issue through with the measure of precision some of us are applying .

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    SA-TX wrote:
    Ever wonder how gun shop employees, not just the owner, can openly carry? I'm guessing that the below section is the answer. It would also be how we could have a open carry gathering and be legal: have it on rural property with a shooting area. We would be engaging in legal sporting activity on the immediate premises.

    Text of subsection as reenacted by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 647, Sec. 1

    (b)Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

    (4)is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
    I don't know if we'd want to do that (allow shooting) on rural property because of insurance implications. If it needed to be an official "event", maybe we could hold a gun-cleaning seminar.


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    jsimmons wrote:
    SA-TX wrote:
    Ever wonder how gun shop employees, not just the owner, can openly carry? I'm guessing that the below section is the answer. It would also be how we could have a open carry gathering and be legal: have it on rural property with a shooting area. We would be engaging in legal sporting activity on the immediate premises.

    Text of subsection as reenacted by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 647, Sec. 1

    (b)Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:

    (4)is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;
    I don't know if we'd want to do that (allow shooting) on rural property because of insurance implications. If it needed to be an official "event", maybe we could hold a gun-cleaning seminar.
    Isn't that when all of the ND/AD's happen? I doubt that a rural property owner who is a 2A friend will be concerned about insurances implications. I know I wouldn't be.

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    Well then, I suppose as long as we're following the law with regards to distance from a given structure or road, we're gold.


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    SA-TX wrote:
    Ever wonder how gun shop employees, not just the owner, can openly carry? I'm guessing that the below section is the answer.
    I'm pretty sure it's not.

    We hashed a lot of that out over on that other forum (I guess I'm still banned; give my regards to Chas.).

    The consensus seems to be that the only reason gun store employees aren't charged with UCW, is because "everyone knows it's okay". It's the same as carrying a handgun to a gun show hoping to sell it, or any other activity that doesn't meet one of the listed exemptions to 46.02 or 46.035.

    There is case law that protects carrying a handgun home after purchase, or taking it in for repair or sale. Other than that, the only reason 46.02 isn't used more often, is because no one charges or prosecutes for the many possible technical violations.

    Seriously, tell the old gang I said hello.


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    KBCraig wrote:
    SA-TX wrote:
    Ever wonder how gun shop employees, not just the owner, can openly carry? I'm guessing that the below section is the answer.
    I'm pretty sure it's not.

    We hashed a lot of that out over on that other forum (I guess I'm still banned; give my regards to Chas.).

    The consensus seems to be that the only reason gun store employees aren't charged with UCW, is because "everyone knows it's okay". It's the same as carrying a handgun to a gun show hoping to sell it, or any other activity that doesn't meet one of the listed exemptions to 46.02 or 46.035.

    There is case law that protects carrying a handgun home after purchase, or taking it in for repair or sale. Other than that, the only reason 46.02 isn't used more often, is because no one charges or prosecutes for the many possible technical violations.

    Seriously, tell the old gang I said hello.
    I'm glad to know that DAs aren't charging folks for technical violations. That shows good common sense. With the MPA now on the books, the number of technical situations where a problem could occur is reduced.

    As for gun stores, I'm guessing that a prosecution would fail not only because it wouldn't pass the "common sense" test with a jury but also because the employees probably "engage in ... lawful sporting activity" frequently. Sure, a strict reading wouldn't support carrying openly every minute of their working day when they aren't shooting or instructing all that time but this probably provides enough legal cover so that the "everyone knows it's okay" sentiment has set in. That goodness prosecutors have enough sense not to put anyone through that.

    Next time I'm over there, I'll do so.

    BACK ON TOPIC -- who's got some property outside the city limits in Austin, D/FW, Houston, etc. & wants to host an open carry get together?

  20. #20
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    SA-TX wrote:
    BACK ON TOPIC -- who's got some property outside the city limits in Austin, D/FW, Houston, etc. & wants to host an open carry get together?
    See my post above. I have 5 acres and it is not in any city limit. It is Bastrop County.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    KBCraig wrote:
    jsimmons wrote:
    We could invite the media and our state representatives. As long as it's held on private property, or even a shooting range, open-carry would be perfectly legal.
    No it would not.

    You need to re-read PC 46.02 and 46.035, and see if you can find an exemption for being on private property, other than for the person who owns or controls the property.

    There isn't one.
    We pointed this out to the legislature last year - and the world - Texas gun laws technically make it unlawful to open carry even if you are a dinner guest hoklding a permit to conceal and want to take your jacket off while you eat.

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    Mike wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    jsimmons wrote:
    We could invite the media and our state representatives. As long as it's held on private property, or even a shooting range, open-carry would be perfectly legal.
    No it would not.

    You need to re-read PC 46.02 and 46.035, and see if you can find an exemption for being on private property, other than for the person who owns or controls the property.

    There isn't one.
    We pointed this out to the legislature last year - and the world - Texas gun laws technically make it unlawful to open carry even if you are a dinner guest hoklding a permit to conceal and want to take your jacket off while you eat.
    Thus why we are talking 'Assigned Control'.

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    Gator5713 wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    KBCraig wrote:
    jsimmons wrote:
    We could invite the media and our state representatives. As long as it's held on private property, or even a shooting range, open-carry would be perfectly legal.
    No it would not.

    You need to re-read PC 46.02 and 46.035, and see if you can find an exemption for being on private property, other than for the person who owns or controls the property.

    There isn't one.
    We pointed this out to the legislature last year - and the world - Texas gun laws technically make it unlawful to open carry even if you are a dinner guest hoklding a permit to conceal and want to take your jacket off while you eat.
    Thus why we are talking 'Assigned Control'.
    I doubt this would work, legally. Assuming an owner can "assign control", it is doubtful that he could "assign control" to everyone in attendance. Control seems to be a singlular thing: either YOU are in control, or someone else is.

    Let's be practical about this: people, both owners and non-owners,shoot on rural land in Texas all the time. This frequently involves handguns as well as long ones. As long as the shooting is real, I can't imagine any law enforcement problems. If someone was to be arrested while taking a break from shooting and eating some BBQ, I think their chances with a rural jury are very good. Much better than by relying on any other argument.

    I would invite your local state representative & senator. I would also invite the chairmen of key committees that hear gun legislation. If they decline to come, we know where they stand and/or who we need to better educate. I would also invite the local sheriff and constables. The local LEOs might not make the laws, but their thoughts about gun legislation can be important. Same thing for the local county attorney/district attorney.

    Remember, these are all ELECTED politicians. They need support, both financial and political, for re-election. If we held these all over the state, very few legislators could go back to Austin next session without seeing a peaceful, law abiding gathering of folks open carrying. Just like elsewhere, once exposed to it, they'll find that it isn't the devil's work and turns out to be no big deal.

    RodBender, Labor Day is coming up quickly. That's probably too soon for proper planning. How about something in late Sept or early October?

    SA-TX

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    SA-TX wrote:
    RodBender, Labor Day is coming up quickly. That's probably too soon for proper planning. How about something in late Sept or early October?

    SA-TX
    I was thinking Labor Day, but it probably is to soon. Maybe the 10th of October. It's close to my birthday and we could call it a birthday party. No presents will be required or even accepted, so don't think you need to buy anything for me, unless it may be something of token value only, unless it's a Colt Commander 1911 (LOL). I'll pick up some stuff for a BBQ.

    Lawyer says it looks OK, but he wants to check a few things before he says do it or not. Will let you know.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    Count me in. I'm in San Antonio.


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