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Thread: OC w/o CPL, How do I get my gun from the car to my person?

  1. #1
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    Sorry if this has been covered before, I've been searching but I have not found a clear answer.

    How does one without a CPL get the firearm from the car to their person? Some post that they load it in the trunk out of sight and quickly holster it, or load/holster in the trunk and then attach to the belt, or do it all in the open as quickly as possible. My understanding is that if the gun is loaded in the car it was considered concealed (even if the owner is standing outside). Also. if the gun is removed from the car and loaded prior to holstering it could it be considered brandishing.

    I understand the rules of transport and the rules of carry, but the small transition part is creating quite a gray area to me. If I choose to open carry before my CPL arrives I want to make sure I don't get caught in some little snag.

    I've only ever open carried while hunting with no one else around so it has not been that much of an issue to load and holster my gun outside of the vehicle.

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    I thought of this before I had my CPL as well.
    This is what I came up with; Gun in case with holster unloaded cased in trunk (or in my case back of Jeep), placed gun in holster then on belt, then inserted Mag and chambered a round. Gun was always in holster while outside of the vehicle and never loaded while inside the vehicle.
    I use a serpa so I can move the slide and lock the slide open while the gun is holstered pretty easy.

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    Does this work as well for unloading? Remove mag, rack slide and let the round fall out?

    I'm looking into getting a autoloader, currently all I own is a revolver (I probably should have specified that in my original question).

    Thanks

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    I don't have a CPL, I've OC'd on several occasions.

    You have to keep your gun locked for transporting.. I keep it locked in my ammo box. I keep a full mag + 1 round also in the same ammo box.

    I keep my holster on my belt, empty, from the time I leave the house..

    I get to where I want to carry, I take out the gun, unlock it, put the magazine in, release the slide, decock the gun, pop the magazine out, put the extra round in, put the magazine back in the gun, then put it in my holster and button down my retention strap.

    Never had a problem with this method. I just make sure the gun is only loaded when its outside the back of my Jeep.

    I would try not to look like you were being hasty and not careful. I would take my time and do things the right way, rather then rush it.

    Brandishing is waving your gun around in a threatening manner.. A cop would be hard pressed to nail you with this..

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    I do not think it would be considered brandishing according to AG Opinion 7101:

    In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining “brandishing,” it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions.
    People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: “1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish.” This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, “brandishing” a weapon is defined to mean “that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner.”

    This is the statute that covers brandishing:

    750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234e. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not knowingly brandish a firearm in public.

    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.

    (b) A person lawfully engaged in hunting.

    (c) A person lawfully engaged in target practice.

    (d) A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair, or transfer of that firearm.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

    History:
    Add. 1990, Act 321, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991.


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    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    astrogiblet wrote:
    I don't have a CPL, I've OC'd on several occasions.

    You have to keep your gun locked for transporting.. I keep it locked in my ammo box. I keep a full mag + 1 round also in the same ammo box.

    I keep my holster on my belt, empty, from the time I leave the house..

    I get to where I want to carry, I take out the gun, unlock it, put the magazine in, release the slide, decock the gun, pop the magazine out, put the extra round in, put the magazine back in the gun, then put it in my holster and button down my retention strap.

    Never had a problem with this method. I just make sure the gun is only loaded when its outside the back of my Jeep.

    I would try not to look like you were being hasty and not careful. I would take my time and do things the right way, rather then rush it.

    Brandishing is waving your gun around in a threatening manner.. A cop would be hard pressed to nail you with this..
    You don't have to have it locked.

    I agree, loading your weapon is not defined as brandishing. Could a LEO arrest you for it? Sure they could, would it stand up??? Most likely no.

    We have lots of people that OC without a CPL and have had no problems with loading up out of a trunk.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Thanks for the replies. It helps a lot. It's one of those area's that, the more I thought about it, could be taken one way or the other if some one is really looking for something.

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    Before I had my CPL, I would keep my gun unloaded in my soft 5.11 range bag with one mag and an extra round. Two mags on my belt already (didn't always carry those, but did most of the time.

    When I arrived at my destination I would exit the vehicle, walk around back, open the trunk, take the gun and mag, chamber a round, eject the mag, then holster. I would then place the extra round in the mag, and insert the mag into the gun while holstered. Close the trunk and head into the store, and done.

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    Venator wrote:
    astrogiblet wrote:
    I don't have a CPL, I've OC'd on several occasions.

    You have to keep your gun locked for transporting.. I keep it locked in my ammo box. I keep a full mag + 1 round also in the same ammo box.

    I keep my holster on my belt, empty, from the time I leave the house..

    I get to where I want to carry, I take out the gun, unlock it, put the magazine in, release the slide, decock the gun, pop the magazine out, put the extra round in, put the magazine back in the gun, then put it in my holster and button down my retention strap.

    Never had a problem with this method. I just make sure the gun is only loaded when its outside the back of my Jeep.

    I would try not to look like you were being hasty and not careful. I would take my time and do things the right way, rather then rush it.

    Brandishing is waving your gun around in a threatening manner.. A cop would be hard pressed to nail you with this..
    You don't have to have it locked in a case, in fact if it's in the trunk you don't even need a case.

    I agree, loading your weapon is not defined as brandishing. Could a LEO arrest you for it? Sure they could, would it stand up??? Most likely no.

    We have lots of people that OC without a CPL and have had no problems with loading up out of a trunk.
    I drive a Jeep Wrangler and I don't have a trunk, therefore I use a case. Plus it keeps my gun nice and protected while my Jeep bounces down the road.

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    Venator wrote:
    You don't have to have it locked in a case, in fact if it's in the trunk you don't even need a case.

    I agree, loading your weapon is not defined as brandishing. Could a LEO arrest you for it? Sure they could, would it stand up??? Most likely no.

    We have lots of people that OC without a CPL and have had no problems with loading up out of a trunk.
    What about this?

    It would appear that a case must be used and that such a case must alsobe designed for firearm storage.

    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.

    Sec. 231a. (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    (b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.

    (c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    There is more to this and this is the same section of law that states the "lawful purposes" for transporting which most of us are familiar with.
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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    You don't have to have it locked in a case, in fact if it's in the trunk you don't even need a case.

    I agree, loading your weapon is not defined as brandishing. Could a LEO arrest you for it? Sure they could, would it stand up??? Most likely no.

    We have lots of people that OC without a CPL and have had no problems with loading up out of a trunk.
    What about this?

    It would appear that a case must be used and that such a case must alsobe designed for firearm storage.



    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.



    Sec. 231a. (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:



    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.



    (b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.



    (c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.



    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.



    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.



    There is more to this and this is the same section of law that states the "lawful purposes" for transporting which most of us are familiar with.
    I stand corrected, it seems it must be in a case when transporting. Does not have to be locked.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    This is so confusing. I've always been under the impression that you had to have the gun locked and the ammo in a separate case. Then it was brought to my attention that ammo need not be in a separate case.

    Now the gun doesn't even need to be locked?

    I found this during my 20 minute search of the MSP firearms laws PDF:

    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty. Sec. 227d.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Taken down.
    (b) Enclosed in a case.
    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
    However, if your a hunter evidently the gun needs to be locked:

    A hunter possessing a valid Michigan hunting license may transport a handgun to or from the hunting area in region 3 in a motor vehicle, provided that the hunter is en route to or from the hunting area and the handgun is unloaded, is in a wrapper or container, and is locked in the trunk of the motor vehicle. If the vehicle has no trunk, the hunter may carry the unloaded handgun in a wrapper or container in an area of the motor vehicle not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    I'm assuming they are talking about the trunk being locked, not the gun...


    Further confusing the hell out of me, this says if the vehicle does not have a trunk the pistol has to be in a locked container and separate from the ammunition. So I'm assuming since I drive a Jeep Wrangler that doesn't have a trunk, I need to keep the container storing my gun locked and I need to keep the ammo in a separate container:
    28.432a Persons to whom requirements inapplicable; “local corrections officer” defined.
    Sec. 12a. (1) The requirements of this act for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol do not apply to any of the following:

    **PARAGRAPHS REMOVED BY ASTROGIBLET**

    (j) A person while carrying a pistol unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of his or her vehicle or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

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    To my knowledge, the CPLlaw only applies on public property. Once you're on private property, then the law no longer applies, and you can transfer it at will.

    Also, the law only applies to when you're actually in the vehicle-- i.e. "transporting."
    Once the car stops and parks, the gun's not being transported.

    For example: you put the gun in the trunk of the car on your property, get in the car and drive to the shooting-range etc. where it's private property, and take the gun out of the trunk.

    Likewise even if you park andget out of the car on public property, the gun's not being transported.

    If the law prescribes some other procedure than follow it, but this is a few of the technicalities by which the law can scare people.



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    astrogiblet wrote:
    I found this during my 20 minute search of the MSP firearms laws PDF:
    750.227d Transporting or possessing firearm in or upon motor vehicle or self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel; conditions; violation as misdemeanor; penalty. Sec. 227d.
    (1) Except as otherwise permitted by law, a person shall not transport or possess in or upon a motor vehicle or any self-propelled vehicle designed for land travel a firearm, other than a pistol, unless the firearm is unloaded and is 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Taken down.
    (b) Enclosed in a case.
    (c) Carried in the trunk of the vehicle.
    (d) Inaccessible from the interior of the vehicle.
    It seems this only applies to firearms other than pistols. Pistols have separate, specific portions oflegislation which govern their transport and possession.
    However, if your a hunter evidently the gun needs to be locked:
    A hunter possessing a valid Michigan hunting license may transport a handgun to or from the hunting area in region 3 in a motor vehicle, provided that the hunter is en route to or from the hunting area and the handgun is unloaded, is in a wrapper or container, and is locked in the trunk of the motor vehicle. If the vehicle has no trunk, the hunter may carry the unloaded handgun in a wrapper or container in an area of the motor vehicle not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    I'm assuming they are talking about the trunk being locked, not the gun...
    Correct


    Further confusing the hell out of me, this says if the vehicle does not have a trunk the pistol has to be in a locked container and separate from the ammunition. So I'm assuming since I drive a Jeep Wrangler that doesn't have a trunk, I need to keep the container storing my gun locked and I need to keep the ammo in a separate container:
    28.432a Persons to whom requirements inapplicable; “local corrections officer” defined.
    Sec. 12a. (1) The requirements of this act for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol do not apply to any of the following:

    **PARAGRAPHS REMOVED BY ASTROGIBLET**

    (j) A person while carrying a pistol unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of his or her vehicle or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
    I think this just says that you would be okay and that the restrictions would not apply. This is not saying that it is a required method of transport. Of course,I am absolutely not a lawyer.

    Anyone else agree or able to put this more clearly than I am able to?

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    astrogiblet wrote:
    (j) A person while carrying a pistol unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of his or her vehicle or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
    The above only refers to if you have been drinking and it is under the CPL laws. That is the only reference to a locked gun case. If you have been drinking alcohol and you have a CPL. If you do not have a CPL you don't have to lock the case...go figure.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    So just to clarify.. theres nowhere else in that 300 page firearm laws PDF that says you have to have the gun locked either right? (I think above we were talking about the case being locked/unlocked)..

    So I can transport my pistol as long as it is in a case, unloaded, and in the back of my vehicle/in the trunk?

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    astrogiblet wrote:
    So just to clarify.. theres nowhere else in that 300 page firearm laws PDF that says you have to have the gun locked either right? (I think above we were talking about the case being locked/unlocked)..

    So I can transport my pistol as long as it is in a case, unloaded, and in the back of my vehicle/in the trunk?
    If your vehicle has a trunk, it must be in the trunk if you're transporting. Otherwise, it can be out of reach in the passenger compartment, encased and unloaded, of course.

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    OK so what constitutes a
    a closed case designed for the storage of firearms
    live every day like its your last cause one day you will be right

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    pmcqueen37 wrote:
    OK so what constitutes a
    a closed case designed for the storage of firearms
    That was my other question. I use an ammo box, but I guess a policeman could easily argue that an "ammo" box is for ammo, not guns..

    So what about if I put my gun in a holster inside the ammo box....?

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    pmcqueen37 wrote:
    OK so what constitutes a
    a closed case designed for the storage of firearms
    Well, if you bought a new gun, chances are it came with a case of some sort. Otherwise, there's some decent $10 hard cases designed for guns at your local gun shop.

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    Any lockable container should be fine.. I happen to use a pelican case.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Any lockable container should be fine..


  23. #23
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    They way I did it before I had my CPL was like this...

    I would store my gun and magazine (seperate from the gun) in a lockable case in the trunk of my car. I have a Blackhawk Serpa Level 2 retention holster that I always wore. When I got to my destination I would open the trunk, open the case, keep my gun pointed in a safe direction and put the gun into my holster. I would then put the magazine in the gun after it was in my holster. I was not comfortable chambering a round at that time so getting the round out of the gun was not an issue for me.

    When I returned the gun to the car, I would open the trunk, then the safe. I would remove the magazine from the gun place it in the safe, then take he gun out of my holster and keep it pointed in a safe direction, then place it in the safe.

  24. #24
    Regular Member pmcqueen37's Avatar
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    purchased it in 1992 soft cloth zipper case, made for the gun
    live every day like its your last cause one day you will be right

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    astrogiblet wrote:
    So just to clarify.. theres nowhere else in that 300 page firearm laws PDF that says you have to have the gun locked either right? (I think above we were talking about the case being locked/unlocked)..

    So I can transport my pistol as long as it is in a case, unloaded, and in the back of my vehicle/in the trunk?

    That is correct. You have to have it in a GUN case unloaded and in the trunk. You can have a magazine loaded in the case with the gun. The case DOES NOT have to be locked.

    The only time you have to have a locked case and ammo outside of the case is if you have a CPL and you have more than .02% BAL. Or you can have it loaded but in the truck.

    As stated you can buy a cheap soft handgun case for about $10 or less. Walmart, Meijer's often carry them. I think you could be given a hard time with the ammo can case. It would depend on the LEO.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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