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Thread: Open Carry without permit

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    Can someone please help me with Utah open carry laws. There are some confusing laws in regards to open carry. According to the Department of public safety if you transport a firearm in your car without a ccw permit you need to have it encased in a case and not readily accesible . However when i read about open carry seems to suggest as long as the weapon is deemed not loaded and not concealed then you can have the weapon within reach or in a holster. until i get my ccw i would like to open carry a bit but don't want to end up in jail. Please help clarify this matter for me. Is the firearm secure in a box an older law that is no longer enforced?

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    Utah law has been recently updated on the possession of a gun in a vehicle. See 76-10-504 and 76-10-505 at <http://www.le.state.ut.us/UtahCode/s...code=76-10>.

    So long as you are over 18 and not a prohibited person, you can legally have a loaded and/or concealed handgun in a private vehicle. A long gun may be concealed but must "Utah unloaded" unless you have a permit.

    The moment you step out of your car onto public property (generally also including private business property generally open to the public) anywhere "civilized" (as opposed to being out in the wild), the gun must not be concealed and must not be "loaded" unless you have a permit. It is also illegal under federal and State gun free school zone laws to have a gun with 1000' of any school unless you have a permit. State law allows you to have the gun in your vehicle (but not outside the vehicle) even within a school zone. Federal law requires the gun to be fully unloaded and locked up in the car to be transported through the school. State law includes pre-schools, day cares, and all institutions of higher ed including colleges, universities, and trade and vocational schools (including that teaching beauty shop in the strip mall). State law also includes any area (like a park or museum) currently being used for a school activity as being a school zone.

    Holding a Utah concealed carry permit exempts a person from all these gun free school zones.

    Some day I'm going to try to put together a map of SL County showing all the gun free school zones. I'm guessing it ends up showing it is virtually impossible to carry a gun legally without a permit.

    Others here will post some great references. I suggest reading the actual State laws (easy to find from the link I gave you), plus Vilos' excellent book, "Utah gun laws: The good, the bad, and the ugly".

    I also highly recommend taking a concealed carry permit course and then getting a permit. The school zone thing alone makes it well worth while.

    None of this is legal advice, your mileage may vary, and other usual disclaimers.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO.

    No, you do not need to securely encase your firearm in your car. Thanks to a new Utah law you may carry concealed, open, loaded or unloaded in your car.

    However, once you get out of your car, without a permit, the weapon must be Utah unloaded, which is defined as two actions away from firing. (full magazine, no round in the chamber.)

    Also, you must not be within 1000 ft of a school zone. Unfortunately Utah law includes K-12 schools as well as anywhere a school is holding an activity. And universities.

    If you can get your permit, I would recommend it. It will exempt you from the school zone laws, as well as the loaded prohibition.

    Also, stay off of frontrunner and trax with your firearm.

    Otherwise, don't worry about it too much. Most people wont notice. And those that do are generally just curious.

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    HB 357 went into affect I believe May 11. If you look through some of the previous threads/posts you'll find the answers to most of your questions.

    It's possible some of the individuals working at the BCI are unaware of the recent changes. Most of the new employees are strictly there to help with the application process.

    It's perfectly okay to have a'loaded' handgun in your vehicle, concealed or open. Now if you travel through other states not recognizing Utah's permit etc than that's a different story. If you don't have a CCW be careful going through school zones: in vehicle it's okay- butif youget pulled over and they ask you to step out & its on your person than you should disarm.

    If you get pulled over, according to the BCI it's recommended you inform the officer that you have a firearm, location etc. But I & others here would advise against that.

    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
    (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
    (ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
    (b) on a public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
    (3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
    (4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.


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    Okay thanks i have taken the concealed class several times over the years never turned in the paper work. I used to do armed security armored car stuff. That was about 10 years ago just never followed through with the concealed paper work. I carry a semi auto pistol so in theory i can carry it with a full magazine in a holster on my hip as long as it is not concealed and no round chambered?

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    Zigler wrote:
    Okay thanks i have taken the concealed class several times over the years never turned in the paper work. I used to do armed security armored car stuff. That was about 10 years ago just never followed through with the concealed paper work. I carry a semi auto pistol so in theory i can carry it with a full magazine in a holster on my hip as long as it is not concealed and no round chambered?
    You should get on that paperwork than you can do as you please without any worries, go to other states who recognize utah's.

    Yes you can carry with full mag (nothing in chamber), you can carry itanywhere on your person & like SGT Jensen has said you can duct tape it to your forhead... just make sure it's not covered, avoid the school zones: 1000ft, avoid UTA/TRAX and you'll be alright. Be advised you may get harassed by members of the public & LE who are ignorant to these laws so be familiar with them and I'd recommend carrying the pamphlet with you: than you can hand it out to ignorant people & LE's...

    http://freeutah.org/docs/UtahGunLaw2009st.pdf

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    Okay sorry just want to clarify can i drive through a school zone and be okay? Does that only apply as a violation if i get out of my vehicle onto the street within 1000 feet of a school zone or a trax station?

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    Zigler wrote:
    Okay sorry just want to clarify can i drive through a school zone and be okay? Does that only apply as a violation if i get out of my vehicle onto the street within 1000 feet of a school zone or a trax station?
    You can drive through a school zone with no problem, just don't get out of your car with your gun within 1000 feet of a school zone. Someone who knows more about the trax station should clarify that one for you.

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    As Utahbagpiper said: State law allows you to have the gun in your vehicle (but not outside the vehicle) even within a school zone.

    My interpretation is you can drive through the zone & be okay but if you must get out or get pulled over and asked to step out than it had better remain in the vehicle, unless you have a permit.

    Now that is how I understand the State law, but apparently there is the Federal Gun Free (see this thread): http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum52/30184.html the federal states it should be unloaded/encased even while traveling through the zone (unless you have a permit from the state the school resides).

    For the trax/uta stations: IMO i would treat it like the school zones, keep it in the vehicle unless you have a permit.

    also make sure to avoid (from the above thread): "post offices (federal property, national parks)",

    Ihad heard (it may be incorrect) but hospitals mainly those thathave a mental ward are off limits: (I wasjust informed that UVRMC in provo is a gun free hospital), "Secured areas of airports and court buildings are also off limits. The "secured" part is anywhere past the metal detectors. Everywhere else in the buildings and on the property outside is fair game." Aso a house of worship (they must be registered with BCI).

    If asked to leave than you must otherwise you could get a treaspassing charge/disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct etc...but you could calmly/polietly inform them about the OC laws etc...



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    Now i am even more confused. I was just reading about House bill 357. It seems to suggest the legal concealment of a loaded firearm in your own vehicle without a permit? Maybe some clarification on that one too. That bill was signed into affect this year last may by governor Huntsman.

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    You are correct. HB 357 changed Utah law to allow the carry of a handgun in your vehicle in any manner you wish. Loaded, unloaded, concealed, open, it doesn't matter. Treat your car as if it were your home. HOWEVER, unless you have a permit, keep the long arms unloaded.

    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
    (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
    (ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
    (b) on a public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
    (3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
    (4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Zigler wrote:
    Now i am even more confused. I was just reading about House bill 357. It seems to suggest the legal concealment of a loaded firearm in your own vehicle without a permit? Maybe some clarification on that one too. That bill was signed into affect this year last may by governor Huntsman.
    this bill signed into affect in May allows you to conceal your 'loaded' handgun in your vehicle or with permission from the vehicles owner. So it can be in your glove box, console, under the seat, on the side of your seat between the door, on your person covered by your shirt, where ever & it can be loaded with a round in the chamber. Only applies to inside the vehicle. Once outside the vehicle if you don't have a permit youhave to follow the rules: unloaded, not concealed etc etc

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    Zigler wrote:
    Okay sorry just want to clarify can i drive through a school zone and be okay? Does that only apply as a violation if i get out of my vehicle onto the street within 1000 feet of a school zone or a trax station?
    Per Utah law, you guns are fine inside your car wherever you are. Per the unenforced federal law, the firearm must be unloaded, and locked in a case when in a K-12 school zone.

    The law that restricts carry on a bus does include the TRAX station. The way I read it, a TRAX station, and the parking lots near them could be a "terminal". The definition of bus is any vehicle that can transport 15 or more people. This includes UTA busses, TRAX and Frontrunner, and perhaps even 15 passenger vans. A permit will exempt you from this law.

    76-10-1503. Definitions.
    As used in this act:
    (1) "Bus" means any passenger bus or coach or other motor vehicle having a seating capacity of 15 or more passengers operated by a bus company for the purpose of carrying passengers or cargo for hire and includes a transit vehicle, as defined in Section 17B-2a-802, of a public transit district under Title 17B, Chapter 2a, Part 8, Public Transit District Act.
    (2) "Bus company" or "company" means any person, group of persons or corporation providing for-hire transportation to passengers or cargo by bus upon the highways in the state, including passengers and cargo in interstate or intrastate travel. These terms also include local public bodies, public transit districts, municipalities, public corporations, boards and commissions established under the laws of the state providing transportation to passengers or cargo by bus upon the highways in the state, whether or not for hire.
    (3) "Charter" means a group of persons, pursuant to a common purpose and under a single contract, and at a fixed charge in accordance with a bus company's tariff, which has acquired the exclusive use of a bus to travel together to a specified destination or destinations.
    (4) "Passenger" means any person transported or served by a bus company, including persons accompanying or meeting another being transported, any person shipping or receiving cargo and any person purchasing a ticket or receiving a pass.
    (5) "Terminal" means a bus station or depot or any other facility operated or leased by or operated on behalf of a bus company and includes a transit facility, as defined in Section 17B-2a-802, of a public transit district under Title 17B, Chapter 2a, Part 8, Public Transit District Act. This term includes a reasonable area immediately adjacent to any designated stop along the route traveled by any bus operated by a bus company and parking lots or areas adjacent to terminals.



    76-10-1504. Bus hijacking -- Assault with intent to commit hijacking -- Use of a dangerous weapon or firearm -- Penalties.
    (1) (a) A person is guilty of bus hijacking if the person seizes or exercises control, by force or violence or threat of force or violence, of a bus within the state.
    (b) Bus hijacking is a first degree felony.
    (2) (a) A person is guilty of assault with the intent to commit bus hijacking if the person intimidates, threatens, or commits assault or battery toward a driver, attendant, guard, or any other person in control of a bus so as to interfere with the performance of duties by the person.
    (b) Assault with the intent to commit bus hijacking is a second degree felony.
    (3) A person who, in the commission of assault with intent to commit bus hijacking, uses a dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-1-601, is guilty of a first degree felony.
    (4) (a) A person who boards a bus with a concealed dangerous weapon or firearm upon his person or effects is guilty of a third degree felony.
    (b) The prohibition of Subsection (4)(a) does not apply to:
    (i) individuals listed in Subsections 76-10-523(1)(a), (b), (c), (d), and (e);
    (ii) a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon; or
    (iii) persons in possession of weapons or firearms with the consent of the owner of the bus or the owner's agent, or the lessee or bailee of the bus.



    76-10-1507. Exclusion of persons without bona fide business from terminal -- Firearms and dangerous materials -- Surveillance devices and seizure of offending materials -- Detention of violators -- Private security personnel.
    (1) (a) In order to provide for the safety, welfare and comfort of passengers, a bus company may refuse admission to terminals to a person not having bona fide business within the terminal.
    (b) The refusal may not be inconsistent or contrary to state or federal laws or regulations, or to an ordinance of the political subdivision in which the terminal is located.
    (c) An authorized bus company representative may require a person in a terminal to identify himself and state his business.
    (d) Failure to comply with a request under Subsection (1)(c) or to state an acceptable business purpose is grounds for the representative to request that the person depart the terminal.
    (e) A person who refuses to comply with a request made under Subsection (1)(d) is guilty of a class C misdemeanor.
    (2) (a) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, firearm, or any highly inflammable or hazardous materials or devices into a terminal or aboard a bus is guilty of a third degree felony.
    (b) The prohibition of Subsection (2)(a) does not apply to individuals listed in Subsection 76-10-1504(4).
    (c) The bus company may employ reasonable means, including mechanical, electronic or x-ray devices to detect the items concealed in baggage or upon the person of a passenger.
    (d) Upon the discovery of an item referred to in Subsection (2)(a), the company may obtain possession and retain custody of the item until it is transferred to a peace officer.
    (3) (a) An authorized bus company representative may detain within a terminal or bus any person violating the provisions of this section for a reasonable time until law enforcement authorities arrive.
    (b) The detention does not constitute unlawful imprisonment and neither the bus company nor the representative is civilly or criminally liable upon grounds of unlawful imprisonment or assault, provided that only reasonable and necessary force is exercised against the detained person.
    (4) (a) A bus company may employ or contract for private security personnel.
    (b) The personnel may:
    (i) detain within a terminal or bus a person violating this section for a reasonable time until law enforcement authorities arrive; and
    (ii) use reasonable and necessary force in subduing or detaining the person.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Nice i just talked to A police officer in Bountiful. Wanted to here what his understanding with the house bill 357 is. There department views this new law as a loaded weapon 2 mechanical actions to fire it. So the officer told me i cannot have a round chambered. But when you get your concealed permit carrying loaded is a round chambered. Go figure.

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    The officer you spoke to, and perhaps his whole department, is mistaken. One piece of sound advice... If you want to know if something is legal or not, ask an attorney, not a cop. The police enforce the laws, but they cant possibly know them all. Sometimes they even enforce their own opinions as law.

    Zach! You gonna call this cop and tell him he's wrong??? :P
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Sounds like we'll have to educate the Bountiful city police department on this and possibly other gun laws...

    I agree with SGT, don't ask cops for their take- others have called them "opinion officers- opinion enforcement" not "law" enforcement

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Dang, what assumption were they working with before HB357? California unloaded?

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    Yes sounds like Bountiful needs to be educated a bit more on what a loaded weapon is.
    I talked to an officer for Salt Lake Pd she seems to have her Crap together. She informed me You can carry Concealed loaded in your vehicle without a ccw.

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Zach! You gonna call this cop and tell him he's wrong??? :P
    Zing

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    bmeldrum wrote:
    Ihad heard (it may be incorrect) but hospitals mainly those thathave a mental ward are off limits: (I wasjust informed that UVRMC in provo is a gun free hospital)
    Only the mental ward would be off limits by law, and then only if they provide storage for your firearm. The hospital is simply private property and can only ask you to leave and trespass you if you refuse.

    76-8-311.1. Secure areas -- Items prohibited -- Penalty.
    (1) In addition to the definitions in Section 76-10-501, as used in this section:
    (a) "Correctional facility" has the same meaning as defined in Section 76-8-311.3.
    (b) "Explosive" has the same meaning as defined for "explosive, chemical, or incendiary device" defined in Section 76-10-306.
    (c) "Law enforcement facility" means a facility which is owned, leased, or operated by a law enforcement agency.
    (d) "Mental health facility" has the same meaning as defined in Section 62A-15-602.
    (e) (i) "Secure area" means any area into which certain persons are restricted from transporting any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.
    (ii) A "secure area" may not include any area normally accessible to the public.
    (2) (a) A person in charge of a correctional, law enforcement, or mental health facility may establish secure areas within the facility and may prohibit or control by rule any firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive.
    (b) Subsections (2)(a), (3), (4), (5), and (6) apply to higher education secure area hearing rooms referred to in Subsections 53B-3-103(2)(a)(ii) and (b).
    (3) At least one notice shall be prominently displayed at each entrance to an area in which a firearm, ammunition, dangerous weapon, or explosive is restricted.
    (4) (a) Provisions shall be made to provide a secure weapons storage area so that persons entering the secure area may store their weapons prior to entering the secure area.
    (b) The entity operating the facility shall be responsible for weapons while they are stored in the storage area.
    (5) It is a defense to any prosecution under this section that the accused, in committing the act made criminal by this section, acted in conformity with the facility's rule or policy established pursuant to this section.
    (6) (a) Any person who knowingly or intentionally transports into a secure area of a facility any firearm, ammunition, or dangerous weapon is guilty of a third degree felony.
    (b) Any person violates Section 76-10-306 who knowingly or intentionally transports, possesses, distributes, or sells any explosive in a secure area of a facility.

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    utbagpiper wrote:
    Utah law has been recently updated on the possession of a gun in a vehicle. See 76-10-504 and 76-10-505 at <http://www.le.state.ut.us/UtahCode/section.jsp?code=76-10>.

    So long as you are over 18 and not a prohibited person, you can legally have a loaded and/or concealed handgun in a private vehicle. A long gun may be concealed but must "Utah unloaded" unless you have a permit.

    The moment you step out of your car onto public property (generally also including private business property generally open to the public) anywhere "civilized" (as opposed to being out in the wild), the gun must not be concealed and must not be "loaded" unless you have a permit. It is also illegal under federal and State gun free school zone laws to have a gun with 1000' of any school unless you have a permit. State law allows you to have the gun in your vehicle (but not outside the vehicle) even within a school zone. Federal law requires the gun to be fully unloaded and locked up in the car to be transported through the school. State law includes pre-schools, day cares, and all institutions of higher ed including colleges, universities, and trade and vocational schools (including that teaching beauty shop in the strip mall). State law also includes any area (like a park or museum) currently being used for a school activity as being a school zone.

    Holding a Utah concealed carry permit exempts a person from all these gun free school zones.

    Some day I'm going to try to put together a map of SL County showing all the gun free school zones. I'm guessing it ends up showing it is virtually impossible to carry a gun legally without a permit.

    Others here will post some great references. I suggest reading the actual State laws (easy to find from the link I gave you), plus Vilos' excellent book, "Utah gun laws: The good, the bad, and the ugly".

    I also highly recommend taking a concealed carry permit course and then getting a permit. The school zone thing alone makes it well worth while.

    None of this is legal advice, your mileage may vary, and other usual disclaimers.

    Charles
    waiiiit a minute, you make it sound like we can conceal while in the wilderness... without a permit...

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    waiiiit a minute, you make it sound like we can conceal while in the wilderness... without a permit...
    That depends on what you are doing. If you are hunting and carrying a concealed firearm with at least a four inch barrel you are covered by:

    76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3) and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under [his] the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor
    (2) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a loaded firearm in violation of Subsection (1) is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (4) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
    (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
    (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    I particularly like that law, mostly because when I go hunting its cold and I'm wearing a long coat.

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    In Utah, you may openly carry a Firearm so as long as it is visible and it is unloaded.

    The term 'Unloaded' means that the Firearm does not have a live round of ammunition chambered into the barrel, racked into the firing position, or primed to fire, where the safety is disengaged, that the Firearm can readily be discharged by only a manual pull of the trigger without any further action.

    In essecense, the Firearm in question must be at least two actions away from firing.

    However, ifyou have a permit, neither of the provisions of the latter apply to you.

    You may carry a Firearm in Utah in this way in public or any public place.

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