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Thread: LVMPD mandatory training on OC

  1. #1
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    Las Vegas Metro PD has just rolled out a new mandatory training program for all POST officers (both regular metro and corrections). The training must be completed by November 1 for commissioned employees below the rank of Deputy Chief. The training is an elective for all other employees (administrative, dispatch, etc).

    The purpose of the training is to familiarize officers with Nevada law regarding the legality of open carry, and to clarify the department's policy on the proper response to citizens exercising their second amendment rights.

    I've reviewed the training material and scenarios, and feel that it is a fair and balanced view of the law.

    The training gives officers 3 "what-if" scenarios to review, and highlights what is and is not reasonable articulable suspicion to perform a Terry stop. At more than one point, the training stresses that the open carry of a gun - in and of itself - is NOT cause for anything other than a consensual encounter.

    It makes the point that random "registration" checks are not allowed, and that any articulable suspicion must be based on the totality of the circumstances. If the firearm is all you have, you don't have anything.

    The three scenarios are:

    Man with a gun call on the strip at night. (There are other factors besides the gun. Gang dress/paraphernalia, potential under-age drinking, perhaps "known" to the officer to be a prior felon, etc.)

    Man with a gun call, walking his dog - walks through a resident's back yard. (Gun alone is not RAS, but wearing a stocking cap in hot weather, may have trespassed on the caller's property, etc may provide RAS for issues other than the firearm.)

    Group with guns on Fremont Street Experience. This is a nearly textbook example of an OCDO gathering. It describes a group of people from 35-60yo, open carrying, but not engaging in any other suspicious or potentially illegal behavior.

    In all three scenarios, the training discusses what peripheral issues may or may not create RAS/PC for a detention, but it continues to stress that the presence of an openly-carried firearm is not RAS alone.

    It makes mention of groups potentially "baiting" the officers to see how they will respond. It specifically deals with civil rights violations. It also makes the point that criminals do not normally carry weapons openly in a holster.

    All in all, I thought it was fair, accurate (with some minor points under review), and should be a big help in educating local LE personnel.

    I believe OCDO was directly and indirectly a part of the impetus for this training, and I'm proud to say that rather than escalated harassment as we've seen in other parts of the country - our local LE leaders have stepped up by providing fair and balanced training to the officers on the street.

    Kudos to LVMPD!

    P.S. The training specifically cites the US vs. Ubiles decision that possession of a firearm alone is not RAS. http://openjurist.org/224/f3d/213/un...v-kahli-ubiles



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    This is GREAT news! Do you have a copy of the literature you're citing available? If you don't feel comfortable distributing it, if you could give me the title and/or document number, I will get the PIO to send me a copy.

    Tim

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    Tim,

    Unfortunately, I do not have any printed documents or the document numbers available. The training is provided online.

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    Could you send a link, even if the web site is inaccessible on the internet? I can give that URL to the PIO and get them to release the info.


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    This does sound good!

    I hope we learn more about it.

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    Bob-

    I spoke with PIO and they are having trouble finding it. Could you give me the title of the course?

    Was it an actual interactive training? A video? Just reading?

    Thanks!!
    Tim


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    Tim,

    It was interactive training. I will turn up the exact title or course number soon.

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    Bob, it's also my understanding there is a related procedural order released within the last several days. If you could give me that number, I'll get "public" copies and post to the site without getting anyone into trouble

    The PO number is the "Directive No." in the upper right of the document.

    Thanks!
    Tim


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    UMLV-OPEN CARRY ?

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    Man, if true, this is truly inspiring. It seems like it is so rare for a police organization to just do the right thing in these matters, and it gives me renewed hope if ours actually did.

    Clearly, this thing needs to end up on Youtube, as an example for other LEA's.


    EDIT -

    It would also be sweet to be able to keep a copy of such a video on your phone, yaknow, for review.
    ---
    Carry On

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    It is about time that The Metropolitan Police Deaprtment caught up with the rest of The State of Nevada cocnerning open carry.

    One more thing, be sure to remind them that it is Legal to carry a Firearm into a Public Building so as long as it is not concealed. They seem to think otherwise. Then again, since when have they followed State Preemption?

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    Wow I used to Live in Las Vegas about 3 years ago (over on Nellis and about Desert Inn) Lived there about 4 years.Sounds like things there are going well.So if I come back to visit friends would I have a problem OC......











    Yours truly at the Seattle Teaparty downtown Seattle 4/15. Pic doesn't show it but there were about 2000+ Cops around here hardly ever bother OC.

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    timf343 wrote:
    This is GREAT news! Do you have a copy of the literature you're citing available? If you don't feel comfortable distributing it, if you could give me the title and/or document number, I will get the PIO to send me a copy.

    Tim
    Tim,

    I would have thought they did this just because of you.
    At least the first scenario.

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    Still working on it. PIO is slow to respond but I'm calling them frequently.


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    I met with the Las Vegas Metro Police Public Information Office and was given an opportunity to review the open carry training. Everything mentioned by bobernet is dead on accurate (not trying to imply that I didn't believe it would be).

    The PIO asked me not to reveal the contents of the training, and I agreed knowing that if it came down to it, we could try to fight for a NRS 239 release of the information. But in my personal opinion, there was nothing in the training that we don't already know. In fact, I was very surprised to see the training as legally accurate as it was. It's now really just a matter of having officers following the training (the law).

    There were a couple of court cases mentioned. The Ubiles case that bobernet referenced is a good read, and I recommend to all. They also referenced Somee vs Nevada:

    http://www.precydent.com/OriginalVer....pdf?id=341094

    And reading that case led me to look up a referenced State v. Lisenbee case:

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...17&invol=2

    These are all good reads for those who have the time and are so inclined.

    Tim

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    Also, the PIO specifically agreed to work with our group any time we have questions or concerns related to the LVMPD. I think this is a good step in the right direction and demonstrates that as a group, we have some power to influence change and have our voices heard, even if we are only in the infant stages of that influence right now.

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    Right on!!

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    Tim was there any mention of no need for a blue card?

    very nice job, Thank you

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    No mention of the blue card whatsoever I'm afraid.

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    RE: Blue Card



    I watched the NVSCA CCW Forum Webcast on Tuesday, and that question came up. The rep from LVMPD stated clearly that the blue card is NOT required to be carried on your person, for all of the reasons we have previously discussed here. He said that it is a training issue, and nothing more. I wish I could have recorded the webcast. I would love to cut it up into snippets regarding the questions that come up frequently during unlawful detentions and such, so that I could play the video for the officer right then and there.


    RE: the training video

    While I can certainly appreciate the progress made with PIO, I see no justifiable reason to keep such a thing confidential. Tim, you've seen it. What's the justification?
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    Merlin wrote:


    RE: the training video

    While I can certainly appreciate the progress made with PIO, I see no justifiable reason to keep such a thing confidential. Tim, you've seen it. What's the justification?



    I agree. It seems as a public servent they can not keep things like that from us. I could be wrong though.


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    I can agree that certain strategic things about SWAT operations, etc, would benefit the public to be "less than available". So that is the real question. Who does it benefit from keeping it secret? Personally, I think this is exactly the kind of thing that should be public. But again, I will wait to hear from Tim, since he is definitely one of us, and wouldn't let it stay secret unless there was a good reason.
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    It is just my opinion, but I think the blue card is a "tool" to check you out further, and if you are from out of state as prophetwas, or don't have yours on you. You will be threatened as I wasalong with several others on this thread. here is prophets story and he lives no where near Clark County and it became his issue big time

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum36/31436.htmlme.


    I apologize I got my threads mixed up. wrong topic

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    This particular training has nothing in it that warrants it being a secret. I did give them my word to not disclose the contents of the training, and in the spirit of hopefully improving the relationship between lawful open carriers and the police, I won't go back on my word -- and I was only really allowed limited note-taking anyway. The only things I wrote down were the court cases, which I posted above.

    The reason they cited for requesting it remain private was that they don't want bad guys to learn their procedures. They gave an example that thugs may just start open carrying if they knew that it was not only legal, but not sufficient justification for police to stop them. This training discussed no formal police handling procedures but simply reiterated

    That being said, we make no effort to hide that fact and discuss it openly. Any criminals that may read this forum already know it. And they also know that even though police aren't allowed to stop you for OC alone, it happens anyway. So I'm guessing any of those criminals would continue to do what they do because OC draws attention to activities they want to keep a little more covert.

    I won't disclose the contents because I gave them my word, but I'm happy to file the NRS 239 request to demand it's public release if you all want it. My personal opinion is that it contains nothing more than we already know -- the gun alone is not enough reason to do anything more than a consensual encounter in which you are free to leave.

    Tim

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