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Thread: Keep Hitting This Poll! **MSNBC: Guns near Obama fuel "open-carry" debate**

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    [see also http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/po...-54849862.html]

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32492783/ns/us_news-life

    Guns near Obama fuel ‘open-carry’ debate
    Second Amendment activists divided by public displays of firearms

    By Mike Stuckey
    Senior news editor
    msnbc.com
    updated 1 hour, 36 minutes ago
    Gun owners may be arguing among themselves and with gun-control activists about it, but for Mustapha Kassou, there’s no debate over the “open-carry” movement, which created a furor this month when pistol- and rifle-packing citizens showed up near several public appearances by President Barack Obama.

    Kassou was working the cash register in the Richmond, Va., market he owns on July 11 when a gunman stormed the store with robbery on his mind. In an incident captured on surveillance video, the bandit ordered the eight customers to the floor and pumped two bullets from his snub-nosed pistol into Kassou, who fell to the floor behind the counter.

    As the store’s patrons prayed and screamed, one of them drew a .45-caliber revolver from a holster in plain view on his hip and ordered the robber to drop his gun. In the shootout and hand-to-hand struggle that followed, the customer managed to wound the robber three times and prevent him from shooting anyone else. By the time police responded to a 911 call, the robber lay mortally wounded in a pool of blood; he died three days later in a hospital.
    Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, the nationwide advocacy group for “sensible” gun laws. “It’s a no-win for them.” If NRA officials criticize those who open-carry near Obama events, they run the risk of irritating their “rabid membership,” Helmke said. If they support the behavior, “they’re going to lose all credibility not only with the public but with the elected officials who usually vote their way.”

    Other gun-rights groups, however, have not shied away, offering a range of reaction.

    'It's their right'“We do applaud them for being a positive example of responsible gun owners,” said John Velleco, director of federal affairs for the Gun Owners of America, probably the loudest voice of support for those who have displayed firearms near Obama events. “We’re not calling for people to do that but if they’re doing so legally it’s their right to do it,” said Velleco, who has said he would have no concerns over thousands of citizens openly carrying firearms to an event at which the president was speaking.

    But Alan Gottlieb, founder of the Second Amendment Foundation, another staunch defender of gun rights, was not applauding. Gottlieb said the open carrying of firearms near presidential town hall meetings on health care “is not the time or the place for it. I’m not for disallowing them to do so, I just don’t think it’s politically intelligent. … I would like to see gun owners think twice before they go to a rally like that with a firearm strapped on. It doesn’t necessarily put our best face forward.”

    Vote: OK to openly carry weapons near presidential event?

    John Pierce, co-founder of OpenCarry.org, a social-networking Web site for gun owners that catalogs weapons laws across the nation and chronicles efforts to loosen and remove restrictions against the public carrying of firearms, praised the low-key response of the White House and the Secret Service to the incidents. But he also worried a bit about the actions of those who wear guns near presidential venues.

    A 'very mixed message'“I absolutely believe open carry should be legal anywhere that a citizen can legally be,” he explained. “Having said that, one of the things that I find a little bit less than perfect about the recent situation is not the fact that citizens were open-carrying, but rather that they were there as a form of open conduct to disagree with a political position that the president has taken, whether it’s about health care or the economy.” Doing so with a gun strapped on sends a “very mixed message,” said Pierce.


    Velleco of Gun Owners of America dismissed that. It “might be a different story” if the town hall open-carry incidents were organized. “You have to remember, this is a leaderless action,” he said. “I wouldn’t call it a movement. I don’t know of anyone who is coordinating people to show up at these events armed. … Gun Owners of America would not call for an armed rally. These people are doing it on their own.” 'Setting the table'But some gun-control activists said they see a clear link between the recent open-carrying actions and past campaigns by the NRA and other groups.

    “Leading into the election last year, the NRA spent something like $15 million saying if Obama is elected he’ll take your guns away,” said Helmke of the Brady Campaign. “That whole lead-in from last year is really kind of setting the table for some of what we’re seeing with this open carry at Obama events.

    “When you’re seeing some of the NRA language from the ads last year being parroted by some of … the picketers and protesters, you start realizing there’s consequences to what they’re saying.”


    Jim Kessler of Third Way, the successor organization to the gun-control group Americans for Gun Safety, said openly carrying firearms near the town halls is the sort of thing done by “a very tiny faction of the extreme right wing that’s a real paranoid conspiracy theorist group.”
    While he does not believe the NRA is behind the open-carrying, he said it could work to the gun group’s advantage. “I think they (NRA leaders) think these people are whack jobs, to be honest with you, but they love a fight. What the NRA is interested in the most is raising money and increasing membership. They love having Obama as president. It means their membership is going to go up.”

    An unseemly imageThe “whack job” image is a big concern to Gottlieb of the Second Amendment Foundation. He does not like provocative open-carry actions just as “I don’t like gun owners running around with the T-shirts saying, ‘Kill Them All and Let God Sort Them Out.’ If someone from the media is at a gun show, that’s the kind of person they’re going to put on TV.”

    And that collides harshly with the image that Pierce and others are trying to craft for the open-carry movement, which he said is “normal law-abiding citizens being able to exercise their rights as they go about their everyday lives.”

    In rural Virginia, where he grew up, “every corner had a rifle or a shotgun in it,” Pierce said. “It was simply a part of life. Everybody hunted. Firearms were just a part of life, a noncontroversial part of life.” He’d like all Americans to feel the same and sees the work of OpenCarry.org as largely educational.

    One positive of the current controversy, Pierce said, “is that it does make open-carry very visible. A lot of people living in New York, New Jersey, Maryland, the Northeast, basically … when they see this, it’s a real wake-up call that there are rights that are exercised in the rest of the country that are so far outside their experience. It makes people begin to wonder about the limits that laws in their states have placed on their rights.

    “Open-carry IS the Second Amendment,” Pierce said. “If you believe in the Second Amendment, you believe in open carry.”

    A call for more lawsBut the Brady Campaign’s Helmke has a different take. “They’re showing the rest of the country how weak our gun laws are,” he said. “When you open-carry, you don’t have a permit, no one has checked you out, you don’t have to go through any training in a lot of places. You can carry a .50-caliber sniper rifle down the street. When folks see that, then maybe they’ll wake up to the fact that we really don’t have many laws on the books with regard to guns.”

    Third Way’s Kessler said that despite last year’s landmark Heller ruling by the Supreme Court that upheld individual rights to own guns, “There is no constitutional right to carry a firearm. This is not even close on the constitutional scale — I have a right to carry a firearm wherever I go — it’s just not.”

    Kessler and Helmke caution that gun-rights advocates, who have enjoyed years of legislative and legal success on issues from relaxed concealed-carry laws to the expiration of the 1994 federal assault-rifle ban, could push too far.

    They cite the Senate’s failure, albeit by a narrow margin, in July to pass an amendment that would have made a concealed-weapon permit from any state valid in all.

    “I think the gun lobby is starting to lose its clout,” Helmke said.

    As for open-carry, which, although at least tacitly supported by most in the gun-rights community is still criticized by many as less tactically shrewd than concealed-carry, Kessler said, “You have to decide what kind of society you want to live in. Do you want to live in a society where the person next to you is openly carrying a firearm? Does that make you happy? I think for most people it disturbs them. It would for me.”

    It shouldn’t, said Velleco of Gun Owners of America. “These people, if anything, are contributing to public safety, not endangering it. … Lawful gun owners use firearms over a million times a year successfully in self-defense. And they make our streets and neighborhoods safer than they would be otherwise. That’s what people don’t understand.”

    Kassou, who has recovered from his wounds and returned to work in his Virginia store, said his attitude has changed. “Nobody likes to carry a gun,” he said, and before he was shot he didn’t. “We’re not here in a war zone, we’re just trying to make a living, but sometimes you have to defend yourself.”

    So now Kassou straps a gun on each day when he heads for his market. Does he wear it openly, as lawful firearms owners are allowed to do in Virginia?

    “Yes sir, I do.”



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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    “Open-carry IS the Second Amendment,” Pierce said. “If you believe in the Second Amendment, you believe in open carry.”

    Thank you John!!!! Now lets get SAF and NRA to view it that way.

    Third Way’s Kessler said that despite last year’s landmark Heller ruling by the Supreme Court that upheld individual rights to own guns, “There is no constitutional right to carry a firearm. This is not even close on the constitutional scale — I have a right to carry a firearm wherever I go — it’s just not.”

    Just because you wish it don't make it so.

    They cite the Senate’s failure, albeit by a narrow margin, in July to pass an amendment that would have made a concealed-weapon permit from any state valid in all. “I think the gun lobby is starting to lose its clout,” Helmke said.

    Narrowly in a liberal congress, and don't forget the other issues like state powers.
    I think a fair article, showing all sides and concerns, but of course I am an Open Carrier, so I am biased towards the points in our favor.



    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    I am across this poll on a third party site. I voted. Amen to John's commentary.

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    Maybe there should be a poll to see if MSNBC can remain biased in their reporting.I vote no.

    I voted ok to carry near a president as LAWFUL people may even one day save his life. Though I detest Obama, NO ONE has a right to harm him.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    Maybe there should be a poll to see if MSNBC can remain biased in their reporting.I vote no.

    I voted ok to carry near a president as LAWFUL people may even one day save his life. Though I detest Obama, NO ONE has a right to harm him.
    +1 What these anti's fail to realize, is that we don't want anybody to be killed, including the president. I too would defend his life.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Worth the read, but I don't think this article was any favor to us.

    MSNBC has a very liberal audience, and they wrote this article to that audience, with the purpose of "showing them" what the "crazies" are up to, and how "weird" we think.

    I believe another major purpose for the article was to paint the pro-gun folks to be in-fighting on this issue, and to present the anti-gun folks, as well as the anti-OC pro-gun folks, as the cooler minds of reason.

    Maybe I'm wrong, I guess you can make that call.

    I will say one thing though:

    'I think the gun lobby is starting to lose its clout,' Helmke said.
    That Helmke dude is one heck of an optimist!

    TFred


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    TFred wrote:
    MSNBC has a very liberal audience, and they wrote this article to that audience, with the purpose of "showing them" what the "crazies" are up to, and how "weird" we think.

    I believe another major purpose for the article was to paint the pro-gun folks to be in-fighting on this issue, and to present the anti-gun folks, as well as the anti-OC pro-gun folks, as the cooler minds of reason.
    I think that's just your understandable distrust of MSNBC coming out.

    If they write anything at all about gunowners, we all tend to pick through it with a fine-toothed comb to find the negative.

    And, face it, we are infighting on this issue, just look at those of us who think of the NRA and SAF as sellouts vs. those of us who stand faithfully by NRA no matter what.

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    I thought it was a pretty good, and pretty unbiased, article.

    I especially like that the article actually identified "Third Way" as a gun control group.

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    Having been interviewed before by truly anti-gun journalists, I can say with great confidence that Mike Stuckey approached it from a very fair point-of-view.


    Carpetbagger wrote:
    I thought it was a pretty good, and pretty unbiased, article.

    I especially like that the article actually identified "Third Way" as a gun control group.

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    jpierce wrote:
    Having been interviewed before by truly anti-gun journalists, I can say with great confidence that Mike Stuckey approached it from a very fair point-of-view.


    Carpetbagger wrote:
    I thought it was a pretty good, and pretty unbiased, article.

    I especially like that the article actually identified "Third Way" as a gun control group.
    I agree.

    Like Tomahawksaid, we are sometimes hypercritical of the things that are close to our heart. This is one of the most unbiased articles I've seen on MSNBC.

    That being said, I'm one that firmly believes it's your personal choice whether or notto carry wherever you legally can. Whether we think that decision may be proper or not it's not our place to say.
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    I sent an email to the author to note that the map provided by OCDO should be labeled as open carry of a HANDGUN, not of a firearm. In Texas, there is no restriction on long arms and that may be true for other states as well.

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    The myopic nanny-states received an immediate wake-up. :shock: I'm normallyagainst 'grandstanding or showboating' firearms 'cause 'you can'.However, this particular exercise of a 'right' was an example of true 'transparency'. Nothing hidden... no threat displayed other than in the hysterical Beta male projections of the cloistered media who purposely sought to inflame the act and obfuscateboth the bearer and purpose.

    There are still people in this country whoare completely unaware that the right to openly bear arms isrecognized and exercised beyond their own borders. There are still people who fail to understand that the free exercise of a Right does not require 'permit, license, registration or special allowance'.This is due to lifetimes of fear mongering propaganda indoctrination by the equally myopic and uninformed media and politicians. The right of the people to bear arms openly has been in effect in Arizona since before many of their 'Great Grandparents' were born (1912). Concealed carry wasn't even an option until fourteen years ago (1994). This is hardly something 'new'... or a product of the 'gun lobby'... whatever that is.

    What happened to their 'Diversity and Tolerance' mantra?

    Hmmmm... let me guess...:quirky

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    TheMrMitch wrote:
    Maybe there should be a poll to see if MSNBC can remain biased in their reporting.I vote no.

    I voted ok to carry near a president as LAWFUL people may even one day save his life. Though I detest Obama, NO ONE has a right to harm him.
    I'll take that one and give you odds, I have no doubt MSNBC will
    continue to be biased till they close the doors, and probably even after that.

    I am shocked they didn't use a brady plant impersonating John,
    but that doesn't change my belief they will never NOT be biased.

    For the second point, the media has agreed that Mrs. Obama has the right
    to harm him. Just ask the Sec. of State about her attack on pres Clinton.


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    I am for grand standing and I have to wonder how the powers that be would be treating taxpayers and the working poor if they saw all of us packing openly.

    Would the greedy come to their senses at all?

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    Where'd the Poll go... hahaha.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    ixtow wrote:
    Where'd the Poll go... hahaha.
    What do you mean? It's still there.

    http://www.newsvine.com/_question/20...idential-event

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    N6ATF wrote:
    ixtow wrote:
    Where'd the Poll go... hahaha.
    What do you mean? It's still there.

    http://www.newsvine.com/_question/20...idential-event
    Odd, it didn't work before. TY, I voted. Whee!
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    Some stuffs
    And, face it, we are infighting on this issue, just look at those of us who think of the NRA and SAF as sellouts vs. those of us who stand faithfully by NRA no matter what.
    I'll stand by my ammo, thanks.

    Well, unless someone yells "INCOMING!" Then I suppose that right next to a big pile of ammo is probably a bad place to be.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Here is a state-by-state look at laws on the "open carry" of handguns. Seven states and Washington, D.C., forbid it entirely.
    I thought it was only 6!?

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    I feel I should clairfy. By 'powers that be' I don't mean Obama I mean the 1% of 300,000,000 Americans who own and control everything worth owning and controlling.

    I am actually an Obama supporter most of the time, and a lefty liberal - except:

    abortion is wrong,

    the death penalty is almost always right, and

    every able American over 12 should own a gun

    I feel the wealthy are playing conservative against liberal like a chess game, for their entertainment and further wealth generating.

    I had to come clean. Thanks. Or not.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    2010Cobra wrote:
    I feel I should clairfy. By 'powers that be' I don't mean Obama I mean the 1% of 300,000,000 Americans who own and control everything worth owning and controlling.

    I am actually an Obama supporter most of the time, and a lefty liberal - except:

    abortion is wrong,

    the death penalty is almost always right, and

    every able American over 12 should own a gun

    I feel the wealthy are playing conservative against liberal like a chess game, for their entertainment and further wealth generating.

    I had to come clean. Thanks. Or not.
    I'm really not sure what is left to call yourself a liberal with, but you're right about the chess game.

    I refer to it as The Colosseum. We're all forced into combat against each other for the entertainment of others.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Good cop:bad cop::NRA:BCPGV
    The lamestream media benefits and all the good people lose.

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    I was reading some of the comments left by voters of the poll and one dissenter said that open carry near the president is a threat. I wholeheartedly agree. The second amendments sole purpose is not about hunting or self defense as many have construed it to be. It is a major part of the system of checks and balances in this country to prevent tyranny and oppression. The open carry of firearms is a direct threat to all public officials to represent the people and their wishes or suffer the ultimate consequence. Do I believe it has come to that yet? No, I think there is still plenty of room to work within the system to change things for the better and things are improving in my opinion, albeit slowly. Our recent election of a fascist president has done a lot to steel the people of this country against tyranny and awoken many of them to the truth. My only hope is that it's not too late.

    Now that I have just red-flagged myself on every government list in existance I am gonna go hide in seclusion and clean my guns. :?
    Malo Periculosam Libertatem Quam Quietum Servitium

  24. #24
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    RebelHell wrote:
    I was reading some of the comments left by voters of the poll and one dissenter said that open carry near the president is a threat. I wholeheartedly agree. The second amendments sole purpose is not about hunting or self defense as many have construed it to be. It is a major part of the system of checks and balances in this country to prevent tyranny and oppression. The open carry of firearms is a direct threat to all public officials to represent the people and their wishes or suffer the ultimate consequence. Do I believe it has come to that yet? No, I think there is still plenty of room to work within the system to change things for the better and things are improving in my opinion, albeit slowly. Our recent election of a fascist president has done a lot to steel the people of this country against tyranny and awoken many of them to the truth. My only hope is that it's not too late.

    Now that I have just red-flagged myself on every government list in existance I am gonna go hide in seclusion and clean my guns. :?
    I have to agree in substance with your statement. I don't think the people carry openly at rallys and such are attempting to directly threaten ANYOONE. Not the President, not opposing protestors, or even their ex wife.

    I used to exclusively carry concealled. I first got a permit in California and carried at all times except when at work (employer policy). When I moved to Oregon I immediately got my license (my wife beat me to it) and we both carry 24/7/365. Until the last month we both carried concealled but I now carry openly exclusively.

    I am doing it to make two statements. ONE - there are guns in our society and if I chose to carry concealled as I am legally entitled to, you'd never have a clue. TWO - Mr politician....do not forget that our founding fathers ensured we had the second amendment to ensure that the government remains the servant of the people. My open carryiing is simply to remind you that we do still have them and that you'd better get the message before the people exercise their Constitutional duty to replace a tyranical governmetn that is unresponsive to the people.

    Yes, that's radical, but it's also our DUTY under the Constitution. The whole reason for the second amendment march on April 19th is not to only promote the second amendment, it is to remind Washington and the states that the people can only be pushed so far. Personally, I think during the march (in DC due to the law) everyone should carry an open and empty holster with signs saying "don't make me come back because it will not be empty".

    I am a patriot. I am not a "when it's popular" patriot. I'm not a fence sitter until I see the way the fight is going patriot. I am simply a patriot.
    "The Second Amendment speaks nothing to an unfettered Right". (Post # 100)
    "Restrictions are not infringements. Bans are infringements.--if it reaches beyond Reasonable bans". (Post # 103)
    Beretta92FSLady
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ons-Bill/page5

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nothing in any of my posts should be considered legal advice. If you need legal advice, consult a reputable attorney, not an internet forum.

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