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Thread: Stopped for OC in Clarksville

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    Walked into a Circle K just off of I-65, as is my normal routine. I always stop there before work. I was carrying my XD 45 compact, IWB holster, shirt tucked behind because it was a little shorter than usual and I didn't want to play peek-a-boo. As I am getting a fountain drink, an officer that was in the lot approached me and asked if I was carrying a weapon. I responded yes, and that I had the proper permit to do so. He told me that he would need to see me outside after I got done. He followed me around the store as I picked up a few other things and paid for them.

    Once outside, he said that he would need to see my permit, which is from KY. It is a state-issued ID with photo. He then asked to see my driver's license, he said he needed it to verify the information on the CDWL. He instructed me to cover up, and told me that the store gets robbed frequently, and that he thought that I was going to rob it. He told me that he carrys concealed when not in uniform, and that by letting peoplesee that I am carrying,I ammaking myself a targetif the store were to get robbed. He told me that I was putting myself at risk. I told him that I accept that risk, and that citizens should know that not allpeoplewho carrysidearms areeither cops or criminals. He continued to suggest that I refrainfrom OC in the future.

    He told me that he could call and have my permit revoked "for this kind of behavior" but wouldn't this time.

    He took my license and permit and went back to his cruiser which was parked next to my car, wewere standing between the cars. I walked to the rear corner of my car to take a picture ofhis plate and car numbers, ashe never identified himself.Whenhe returned with my license and permit,hetold me that there was no need to take pictures of his cruiser, and that he would give me his badge number (which he never did).

    The officer never accused me of breaking any law, it was quite evident that he was just trying to manipulate me into behaving in a manner that he found acceptable. I do not plan on changing my behavior, so long as I am welcome in the store. Management didn't come out or comment so I assume I am still welcome.

    Thoughts?

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    I think you should be grateful that he didn't report you and have your permit revoked!

    Haha, kidding aside--You were right to produce your permit per IN law. Handled the situation very smartly!

    Does kinda make me mad that he made it out to be him doing you a favor by not "reporting" you.

    The police are busy enough with law breakers. Surely they don't need to take it upon themselves to start reporting law abiding citizens.

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again:

    Don't ASK if you are free to go.... ESTABLISH that you are:

    Am I under arrest? Open the bid with the highest card as they must 'trump' you to retain authority. I dare say 99.9% of the time this will catch them off guard and they will respond in the negative. This does two things:
    1: If you ARE under arrest, you now know to **** to protect yourself.
    2: If you are NOT under arrest, you have established such through their own statements, and just trumped any future claims of 'resisting arrest' as you peacefully walk away (after the following).


    Am I being detained?
    Same as above....establish through their own statements that you are NOT being detained. If they indicate that you ARE being detained, DEMAND RAS. Do not relent. It would seem to be general consensus that they are not required to articulate their suspicion to YOU, just that they have it for the judge, but I maintain that if they truly do have RAS then it should be no problem to voice to YOU it in the instant matter in order for you to know that they are not playing on (your) ignorance and trying to trick (you) into voluntarily surrendering your rights secured by the fourth and fifth.

    If they indicate that you are NOT being detained, do not ASKif you are free to leave...make it a statement that you ARE leaving:

    "Thank you. Having established through your own statements (Emphasize that line!), that I am NOT under arrest NOR being detained I am terminating this encounter and departing forthwith (or 'leaving immediately' if that more natural to your speech patterns). I leave you in peace, and bid you good day."

    Then turn and WALK. Any action on their part that hinders your free movement from that point on is a direct CRIMINAL violation of 18USC sec 242. Remember....recorders are your friends.

    I have had folks say that the whole "departing forthwith" and "I leave you in peace" thing was a little over the top, but I wanted to include a formal statement to establish that I was offering no resistance to any exercise of lawful authority but simply removing myself from their presence and the olde-tyme language pattern seemed to get the point across the best.






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    Phssthpok wrote:
    I've said it before and I'll say it again:

    Don't ASK if you are free to go.... ESTABLISH that you are:

    Am I under arrest? Open the bid with the highest card as they must 'trump' you to retain authority. I dare say 99.9% of the time this will catch them off guard and they will respond in the negative. This does two things:
    1: If you ARE under arrest, you now know to **** to protect yourself.
    2: If you are NOT under arrest, you have established such through their own statements, and just trumped any future claims of 'resisting arrest' as you peacefully walk away (after the following).


    Am I being detained?
    Same as above....establish through their own statements that you are NOT being detained. If they indicate that you ARE being detained, DEMAND RAS. Do not relent. It would seem to be general consensus that they are not required to articulate their suspicion to YOU, just that they have it for the judge, but I maintain that if they truly do have RAS then it should be no problem to voice to YOU it in the instant matter in order for you to know that they are not playing on (your) ignorance and trying to trick (you) into voluntarily surrendering your rights secured by the fourth and fifth.

    If they indicate that you are NOT being detained, do not ASKif you are free to leave...make it a statement that you ARE leaving:

    "Thank you. Having established through your own statements (Emphasize that line!), that I am NOT under arrest NOR being detained I am terminating this encounter and departing forthwith (or 'leaving immediately' if that more natural to your speech patterns). I leave you in peace, and bid you good day."

    Then turn and WALK. Any action on their part that hinders your free movement from that point on is a direct CRIMINAL violation of 18USC sec 242. Remember....recorders are your friends.

    I have had folks say that the whole "departing forthwith" and "I leave you in peace" thing was a little over the top, but I wanted to include a formal statement to establish that I was offering no resistance to any exercise of lawful authority but simply removing myself from their presence and the olde-tyme language pattern seemed to get the point across the best.




    RAS: Reasonable and articulable suspicion.

    In this case, having determined you have a valid license (or your case permit) to carry, his justification (confirmation of your license/permit) for the encounter was over.

    FWIW, I'd like to see the Indiana AG affirm that officers cannot stop someone for carrying a firearm "just to see if they have a license" anymore so than they can stop a driver to see if they have a valid DL.

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    Well, tonight I was stopped for a traffic offense in a private parking lot, by someone with the Clark County Sheriff's Office in an unmarked van. I informed the plain clothes officer of my carry status right away. He requested my driver's license and permit (Both are from KY). He informed me that I must have an Indiana Permit to carry in Indiana. He opened up my door and ordered me out of the car. I requested that a marked unit show up. He said ok, then forcibly disarmed me. He did not inform me of his intent to remove my pistol from its holster, which is why he had such a problem getting it out. My manager walked over and tried to tell the officer that I was allowed to be there, but the officer told him to mind his own business and go away. He took my weapon back to his van, and had me stand by his driver's front fender. Afraid that he was going to attempt to charge me with carrying without a permit, I asked about reciprocity with KY. He told me that I just needed to calm down and shut up. When I told him that I was upset that he had taken my property, he hopped out of the van and said, "that's it, turn around!"

    While he was cuffing me, I asked if I was being arrested. He informed me that I was. I asked him what for, he told me disorderly conduct. He put me in the back of his van. I watched him unload my pistol, then place it in his passenger seat. At one point, he knocked it off of the seat to the floorboard. He also somehow managed to cut himself on it. He called in the serial # off my pistol (to see if it was stolen), my drivers license, and confirmed that my permit was valid. He told me "Well I see you acting like this and then you tell me you're carrying a gun, what do you expect to happen?" He tried to ask me some questions, and a few times said things like "now would be a good time to say yes, officer."

    He told me that my KY permit was of a type he hadn't seen before, and said "I guess that some of the laws have changed"

    His demeanor changed when the uniformed Clarksville PD arrived, 4 or so units. All of a sudden he was feeling generous, knew that I was a "good kid", etc. and let me go without so much as a written warning. Clarksville PD demanded a driver's license from my passenger as well. They all told me how lucky I was that he wasn't having my car towed, and that I wasn't going to jail.

    So now I'm at home. I guess I'm not under arrest anymore.

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    v8shoguy wrote:
    So now I'm at home. I guess I'm not under arrest anymore.
    Wow, you've been having some bad luck out there. I hope you're planning on filing some paperwork on the total ass who wasted your time.

    I think if I was in the same situation I would have demanded to see identification from the police officer as soon as he identified himself as such. There's very little chance that some random person is going to get me out of my car and take my weapon without something bad happening.

    I hope things in Indiana aren't always this bad, and I hope this officer gets severely reprimanded for his behavior.

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    and what are you going to do about the illegal stop, seizure, arrest, etc??

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    v8shoguy wrote:
    The officer never accused me of breaking any law, it was quite evident that he was just trying to manipulate me into behaving in a manner that he found acceptable. I do not plan on changing my behavior, so long as I am welcome in the store. Management didn't come out or comment so I assume I am still welcome.

    Thoughts?
    You're exactly correct. The police enjoy and protect their monopoly on the public display of force, and they don't like the competition and confusion you bring.

    It might be worthwhile to have an Indiana attorney serve a Cease and Desist letter on the police department along with an open records request.

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    v8shoguy wrote:
    Well, tonight I was stopped for a traffic offense in a private parking lot, by someone with the Clark County Sheriff's Office in an unmarked van. I informed the plain clothes officer of my carry status right away.
    Wait... a traffic offense in a private parking lot? How does that work? Or was it for an offense on a public street, and he made the stop in the parking lot?

    And: wow, a plain clothes officer in an unmarked van? I'd have been suspicious as hell, and would have been immediately on the horn to 911 requesting police to respond to a possible police impersonator.

    Glad you came out of it okay. File the paperwork!

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    Ok, that's it. This weekend I am going to buy a digital recorder.

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    KBCraig wrote:
    v8shoguy wrote:
    Well, tonight I was stopped for a traffic offense in a private parking lot, by someone with the Clark County Sheriff's Office in an unmarked van. I informed the plain clothes officer of my carry status right away.
    Wait... a traffic offense in a private parking lot? How does that work? Or was it for an offense on a public street, and he made the stop in the parking lot?
    It may vary by state, but my understanding is that a property owner can request that local police enforce all traffic laws on the property.

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    Flyer22 wrote:
    KBCraig wrote
    Wait... a traffic offense in a private parking lot? How does that work? Or was it for an offense on a public street, and he made the stop in the parking lot?
    It may vary by state, but my understanding is that a property owner can request that local police enforce all traffic laws on the property.
    All in the parking lot, including the 'offense'.

    It's not that kind of property, trust me.

  13. #13
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    v8shoguy wrote:
    Well, tonight I was stopped for a traffic offense in a private parking lot, by someone with the Clark County Sheriff's Office in an unmarked van. I informed the plain clothes officer of my carry status right away. He requested my driver's license and permit (Both are from KY). He informed me that I must have an Indiana Permit to carry in Indiana. He opened up my door and ordered me out of the car. I requested that a marked unit show up. He said ok, then forcibly disarmed me. He did not inform me of his intent to remove my pistol from its holster, which is why he had such a problem getting it out. My manager walked over and tried to tell the officer that I was allowed to be there, but the officer told him to mind his own business and go away. He took my weapon back to his van, and had me stand by his driver's front fender. Afraid that he was going to attempt to charge me with carrying without a permit, I asked about reciprocity with KY. He told me that I just needed to calm down and shut up. When I told him that I was upset that he had taken my property, he hopped out of the van and said, "that's it, turn around!"

    While he was cuffing me, I asked if I was being arrested. He informed me that I was. I asked him what for, he told me disorderly conduct. He put me in the back of his van. I watched him unload my pistol, then place it in his passenger seat. At one point, he knocked it off of the seat to the floorboard. He also somehow managed to cut himself on it. He called in the serial # off my pistol (to see if it was stolen), my drivers license, and confirmed that my permit was valid. He told me "Well I see you acting like this and then you tell me you're carrying a gun, what do you expect to happen?" He tried to ask me some questions, and a few times said things like "now would be a good time to say yes, officer."

    He told me that my KY permit was of a type he hadn't seen before, and said "I guess that some of the laws have changed"

    His demeanor changed when the uniformed Clarksville PD arrived, 4 or so units. All of a sudden he was feeling generous, knew that I was a "good kid", etc. and let me go without so much as a written warning. Clarksville PD demanded a driver's license from my passenger as well. They all told me how lucky I was that he wasn't having my car towed, and that I wasn't going to jail.

    So now I'm at home. I guess I'm not under arrest anymore.
    Unmarked van, plain clothes. Tries to take gun from LAC. All the makings of a tragedy. Lucky cop he is.

    Somebody not in uniform struggles to take my gun, would probably be shot from my BUG in the ankle holster.

    Why do some cops think it is OK to surprise a gun owner by trying to take the handgun out of the holster? Cops are taught not to let others take their gun, it is a life and death struggle. This kind of behavior will produce an unfortunate tragedy.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    v8shoguy wrote:
    He told me that he could call and have my permit revoked "for this kind of behavior" but wouldn't this time.. . .
    Thoughts?
    Make a complaint to his dept and follow up for resolution.

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    langzaiguy wrote:
    I think you should be grateful that he didn't report you and have your permit revoked!

    Haha, kidding aside--You were right to produce your permit per IN law. Handled the situation very smartly!

    Does kinda make me mad that he made it out to be him doing you a favor by not "reporting" you.

    The police are busy enough with law breakers. Surely they don't need to take it upon themselves to start reporting law abiding citizens.
    Please provide reference for bolded statement. I can not find anything in IC that says you must produce your license upon request from LE.

    Just because the ISP website states that LE have the right to ask for you license to carry does not make it law.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    v8shoguy wrote:
    Well, tonight I was stopped for a traffic offense in a private parking lot, by someone with the Clark County Sheriff's Office in an unmarked van. I informed the plain clothes officer of my carry status right away. He requested my driver's license and permit (Both are from KY).

    His demeanor changed when the uniformed Clarksville PD arrived, 4 or so units. All of a sudden he was feeling generous, knew that I was a "good kid", etc. and let me go without so much as a written warning. Clarksville PD demanded a driver's license from my passenger as well. They all told me how lucky I was that he wasn't having my car towed, and that I wasn't going to jail.
    So now I'm at home. I guess I'm not under arrest anymore.
    Unmarked vehicle/plain clothes. He was not allowed to make the stop.
    IC 9-30-2-2
    Uniform and badge; marked police vehicle
    Sec. 2. A law enforcement officer may not arrest or issue a traffic information and summons to a person for a violation of an Indiana law regulating the use and operation of a motor vehicle on an Indiana highway or an ordinance of a city or town regulating the use and operation of a motor vehicle on an Indiana highway unless at the time of the arrest the officer is:
    (1) wearing a distinctive uniform and a badge of authority; or
    (2) operating a motor vehicle that is clearly marked as a police vehicle;
    that will clearly show the officer or the officer's vehicle to casual observations to be an officer or a police vehicle. This section does not apply to an officer making an arrest when there is a uniformed officer present at the time of the arrest.
    http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/cod.../ar30/ch2.html

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    Ya done good. I was tickled you had a *CDWL* from Kentucky, the same as I.

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    Good find TimeJoeBillyBob. I really need to compile all these IC snips and make something to carry around with me for reference.
    Colorado Gun Owners - COGO
    http://www.ColoradoGunOwners.com

    A discussion forum for Colorado Gun Owners.

    Colorado Firearm law.
    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/colorado/
    Lexis Nexis: Colorado law pertaining to firearms.
    Title 18, Article 12

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    I am a security officer at a truck stop and have seen a few people OCing in the store and unless the manager or I receive a compliant from a customer will I say anything to the person carrying. When I do I simply ask to see their permit and id (which they do not have to show me) if it is valid I apologize for bothering them (and normally we talk about guns for a few minutes) the only time I have had any problems was with a off duty Sheriffs deputy when I asked for his permit and id he told me he didn’t have to show me nothing (and he was right ) I then told him to leave the store and if he refused I would call the police. He then reached back towerd his gun and flashed his badge. My manager seeing that called 911 within 5 minuets 3 squad cars where there (one of the officers was a regular and knows me) it turned out that the deputy was a rookie and was still full of pep and vinegar. He did apologize after the older officer in formed him I could have shot him for what he did (I am unarmed at that post).

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    Sorry guys don't buy into the harrassment, I treat officers with respect, don't drive a pinto and dress well and have never had any issues.

    Funny story about open carry from Halloween 09. We were doing the Danger Run where you get directions and have to find your way around to different locations, count mileage, win prizes.

    Anywho, Right off the road we were on is a gas station, so I pull in and begin filling up. I was wearing my Kimber Stainless Pro-Carry in an OWB loop and wore a jacket overtop to conceal going into the haunted houses. Pumping gas I had no jacket on.

    I see headlights pull in next to me, thinking nothing of it. I look around the pump, marked cruiser beaming me with his spotlight. Maybe 5 seconds later, two cruisers pull in from another entrance, block me in, all lighting me up. I put my arms out to my side like a "dunno" stance, and turn so they can clearly see it.

    I see one run around to the back of my truck and read the plate, very cautiously. He then walks up to me and asks if I've been drinking, to which I responded "officer, what do you think?" He actually laughed and said someone in a [my vehicle description] had been reported OWI minutes earlier smashing into some ****. They left, no harassment.

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    Unmarked vehicle/plain clothes. He was not allowed to make the stop.
    IC 9-30-2-2
    Uniform and badge; marked police vehicle
    Sec. 2. A law enforcement officer may not arrest or issue a traffic information and summons to a person for a violation of an Indiana law regulating the use and operation of a motor vehicle on an Indiana highway or an ordinance of a city or town regulating the use and operation of a motor vehicle on an Indiana highway unless at the time of the arrest the officer is:
    (1) wearing a distinctive uniform and a badge of authority; or
    (2) operating a motor vehicle that is clearly marked as a police vehicle;
    that will clearly show the officer or the officer's vehicle to casual observations to be an officer or a police vehicle. This section does not apply to an officer making an arrest when there is a uniformed officer present at the time of the arrest.
    http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/cod.../ar30/ch2.html
    I was yelling at my screen when I read the story. Yelling because of the ABOVE law. I've been a cop for over 8 years. 5 here in Indiana. This is exactly correct. For what exact reason did he stop you? If only an infraction I would suggest the following:
    Hire an attorney who is familiar with this type of work
    Go with said attorney to the agency involved and file a formal complaint with the Sheriff. If they are not receptive to your wishes I would then go to the state police post for that district (with your attorney) and speak to them about it.
    Good luck to you!
    Jon

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