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Thread: CC in a restuarant/bar question

  1. #1
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    A friend's band plays weekends at Va. restuarant/bar and I OC with no real problems but the owner did ask if I could CC to prevent someone (after having to much) from trying something stupid. I know that OC is legal but was curious if it would legal if the establishment's owner requested me to CC. I do have a CWP.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    9MM Owner wrote:
    A friend's band plays weekends at Va. restuarant/bar and I OC with no real problems but the owner did ask if I could CC to prevent someone (after having to much) from trying something stupid. I know that OC is legal but was curious if it would legal if the establishment's owner requested me to CC. I do have a CWP.
    If he decided to employ you for the night, you could. Also.. if you are in VA and have a VA permit, it is a CHP not a CWP.

    Welcome to OCDO.

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    Carry On.

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    I ain't no lawyer, but it sounds like the owner is asking you to break the law, perhaps by not knowing any better. Just b/c he owns the place he can't change the code of va. I understand his "intent" for asking you to do this, but he won't be paying for fines or doing your jail time if you were to get caught. The law is the law.

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    ed wrote:
    9MM Owner wrote:
    A friend's band plays weekends at Va. restuarant/bar and I OC with no real problems but the owner did ask if I could CC to prevent someone (after having to much) from trying something stupid. I know that OC is legal but was curious if it would legal if the establishment's owner requested me to CC. I do have a CWP.
    If he decided to employ you for the night, you could. Also.. if you are in VA and have a VA permit, it is a CHP not a CWP.

    Welcome to OCDO.

    Ed

    Thanks Ed,

    I wasn't sure but knew if I asked here I'd get the right response. Wasn't there something going around about allowing CC?


  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    9MM Owner wrote:
    ed wrote:
    9MM Owner wrote:
    A friend's band plays weekends at Va. restuarant/bar and I OC with no real problems but the owner did ask if I could CC to prevent someone (after having to much) from trying something stupid. I know that OC is legal but was curious if it would legal if the establishment's owner requested me to CC. I do have a CWP.
    If he decided to employ you for the night, you could. Also.. if you are in VA and have a VA permit, it is a CHP not a CWP.

    Welcome to OCDO.

    Ed

    Thanks Ed,

    I wasn't sure but knew if I asked here I'd get the right response. Wasn't there something going around about allowing CC?
    Yep.. but it didnt pass.. It should next year if when we get a new gov in office.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Lie2me wrote:
    I ain't no lawyer, but it sounds like the owner is asking you to break the law, perhaps by not knowing any better. Just b/c he owns the place he can't change the code of va. I understand his "intent" for asking you to do this, but he won't be paying for fines or doing your jail time if you were to get caught. The law is the law.

    Welcome to the board!
    Ed is correct. If the owner employs you, even for the evening, and you have a valid CHP, you CAN CC in his establishment.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
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    Regular Member CRF250rider1000's Avatar
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    Can he just contract you for the night? Thus employing you? hmm

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Or if you are sponsoring/hosting an event at the establishment.

    Consider that the band is getting paid for their performance. You help the band load in, set up, tear down and load out. They pay you (or buy your drinks, etc). You are an employee of the band who are, by proxy, employees of the establishment.

    You may CC.

    Being in a band and engineering sound HUNDREDS of times over the years I have never encountered any problems carrying concealed as I work at any establishment.

    You of course have to make your own decision about it, but enough argument could be presented under 18.2-308.J3 to support.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Regular Member MackTheKnife's Avatar
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    If he employed you, AND you had a VA Armed Security guard certification, you could. Carrying concealed in a "restaraunt or club" is illegal.
    Mack The Knife sends.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    MackTheKnife wrote:
    If he employed you, AND you had a VA Armed Security guard certification, you could. Carrying concealed in a "restaraunt or club" is illegal.
    Please provide a cite for your extra legal requirement.


    [line]
    §18.2-308 (J.3.): No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    MackTheKnife wrote:
    Carrying concealed in a "restaraunt or club" is illegal.
    Not in all cases: § 18.2-308.J.3

    No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club...Nothing herein shall prohibit any...owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
    Which is why folks are saying that it's permissible in those types of circumstances.

    ~ Boyd

  12. #12
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    MackTheKnife wrote:
    If he employed you, AND you had a VA Armed Security guard certification, you could. Carrying concealed in a "restaurant or club" is illegal.
    Wrong. As TexasNative duly noted, any employee may carry concealed so long as they have a permit and the owner approves, regardless of the capacity of their employment.

    I find no reference to a "VA Armed Security Guard" certification under the VA DPOR (http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/ Department of Occupational and Professional Regulation) that would support your extra-legal reference.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    MackTheKnife wrote:
    If he employed you, AND you had a VA Armed Security guard certification, you could. Carrying concealed in a "restaraunt or club" is illegal.
    Mack,

    Sorry. You are wrong here. Please research before posting or be prepared to cite. Not trying to flame, but there are too many folks making posts before making sure what they say is correct.

    Cheers.
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    @wylde007: if they were to buy drinks as payment as you suggested then you better not have a gun on you. Just sayin.

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    PeteXD wrote:
    @wylde007: if they were to buy drinks as payment as you suggested then you better not have a gun on you. Just sayin.
    Yeah. I'll be sure to keep that helpful hint in mind...:quirky
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Contract for employment

    I (bar owner) do hereby employ (gun owner) to provide the services of "music critic"on (date). Theemployee will be compensated $1.

    Signed (bar owner)

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    Naked,
    I like your attitude.

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    Would there be a need to be compensated by the owner in order for there to be an official transaction of labor? Could he just be helping out a friend and be "employed"?

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    richarcm wrote:
    Would there be a need to be compensated by the owner in order for there to be an official transaction of labor? Could he just be helping out a friend and be "employed"?
    "Employed" means an exchange of labor for some sort of renumeration. Cash is the usual means, but he could pay you by giving you a meal. Merely being there does not meet the definition of "employment".

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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  20. #20
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    skidmark wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    Would there be a need to be compensated by the owner in order for there to be an official transaction of labor? Could he just be helping out a friend and be "employed"?
    "Employed" means an exchange of labor for some sort of renumeration. Cash is the usual means, but he could pay you by giving you a meal. Merely being there does not meet the definition of "employment".

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    that being the case you would have to be on payroll. otherwise he could pay me nothing at all and just say that he already paid me if questioned. Because if I'm just a customer who is at some bar to watch my friends play in a band...I would think that the owner would want to make this as easy as possible. He could give me $1 bill but he could also give me nothing with an agreement that he had paid me. Or if proof of payment is required he could put me on payroll.

  21. #21
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    That's why I contend that it's better to be "with the band" who are contractors being hired to provide a service and you are in their employ, not the club's. I think you would still be covered under J(3) as the "event sponsor" or employee.

    The burden lies with the officer to prove that you are not actually in the chain of employment, but you take your own risks, I suppose.

    When I work shows, I am ALWAYS armed, because I am generally loading-in, loading out behind buildings, in alleys and at VERY LATE hours (sometimes 2, 3 o'clock in the morning). I am not an "employee" of the club, but I have been hired by the event promoter to provide sound reinforcement and it is more appropriate to conceal my defensive weapon while rigging gear on a stage in front of hundreds of rowdy concert-goers.

    These are just my experiences and opinions from someone who has exercised his perception of J(3) and had a couple of interactions with VB police (who are, admittedly, much better than Norfolk) who have acceded to same.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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