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Thread: Detroit mugger critical after victim retaliates

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    Source: http://www.freep.com/article/2009082...tim-retaliates

    Posted: 12:53 p.m. Aug. 25, 2009 Detroit mugger critical after victim retaliates BY TAMMY STABLES BATTAGLIA
    FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER


    A 32-year-old suffered a graze wound to the head but seriously injured a 17-year-old trying to rob him at gunpoint in Detroit early today, according to police.
    The intended robbery victim, who has a permit to carry a weapon, pulled out his gun when he was confronted behind the apartment building at 1670 Oakman Blvd. near Linwood Street at 5 a.m. today, Detroit Police spokesman John Roach said.
    After an exchange of gunfire, the intended victim escaped with only the superficial wound. But the 17-year-old is in critical condition today in a local hospital after running away and collapsing in the parking lot of a gas station across the street, Roach said.

    “That’s what we’re seeing so much – young kids with guns,” Roach said.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Good for the lawfully armed citizen!







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    Regular Member Jblack44's Avatar
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    score one for the good guys! These young kids and armed attacks have been in the news lately. I heard that there have been somewhere around 1100 shootings in Detroit so far this year. That's 4.5 a day! :what:How can you not be armed when going into Detroit?????
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the hell do you have to be paranoid for." Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Exhibit A why all law abiding citizens should carry guns. Imagine the drop in crime if there's no criminals alive to commit crime. :celebrate
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    malignity wrote:
    Exhibit A why all law abiding citizens should carry guns. Imagine the drop in crime if there's no criminals alive to commit crime. :celebrate
    YAHTZEE!

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    warlockmatized wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    Exhibit A why all law abiding citizens should carry guns. Imagine the drop in crime if there's no criminals alive to commit crime. :celebrate
    YAHTZEE!
    I 2nd That............................:celebrate:celebra te:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebra te:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

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    Yeah... I just heard a few days ago that one of my old coworkers was shot during a carjacking in Detroit. Fortunately, he is fine... but he was shot in the leg and foot even though he surrendered his vehicle without a fight.

    I'm not sure what pisses me off more... the fact that some ******* took what didn't belong to him, or the fact that he shot someone who wasn't even putting up a fight over it.

    When I hear stories like this... I shudder. It's easy to say what I would have done... but unless I was actually there, all I can do is shudder when thinking about it. I mean... he took two bullets and survived, right? He was lucky. But if someone is going to shoot another person so mercilessly, what do you think they've have done if their victim pulled a gun of their own? Ran? Maybe. Aimed for their center mass, rather than their leg and foot? Maybe.

    You really just don't know how things will unfold. But at the end of the day, I'll take my chances with being armed, any day, over not being armed. I figure if I'm going to be shot... I'm going to make an attempt at taking them with me.

    And I'll leave it at that.

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    Veritas wrote:
    You really just don't know how things will unfold. But at the end of the day, I'll take my chances with being armed, any day, over not being armed. I figure if I'm going to be shot... I'm going to make an attempt at taking them with me.
    And if you don't manage to take the criminalwith you outright, you've substantially increased the chances they will have to go to a hospital, get caught,be connected to the crime against you, convicted, and imprisoned.

    Even in a situation that you will not come out alive afterward,shooting in self-defense STILLhas its merits.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    DanM wrote:
    And if you don't manage to take the criminalwith you outright, you've substantially increased the chances they will have to go to a hospital, get caught,be connected to the crime against you, convicted, and imprisoned.

    Even in a situation that you will not come out alive afterward,shooting in self-defense STILLhas its merits.
    Precisely. And not to sound like Captain America, but even if he "wins", he may think twice about trying it with someone else after the encounter.

    The naysayers, on the other hand, look at the glass as half empty. They simply say, "Oh great... another gun on the street" in response to a legally armed citizen being killed and having their gun stolen.

    I prefer to look at the glass as half full in that there's a fighting chance of getting one less illegal gun off the street; assuming I "win". I like those odds better.

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    This is where situational awareness comes into play, as well. I'll admit that there are certain environments where I'm much more aware of my surroundings. I keep an eye on my mirrors to check for people approaching my vehicle, leave enough distance (when stopped) from the car in front of me in order to skirt around them if necessary, and my pistol is easily accessible to me. If I'm on a freeway or something, it's probably in my holster and attached to my hip. But if the environment calls for it, it's probably sitting on the seat next to me or tucked between my legs.

    I've actually been meaning to get a shoulder holster just for these purposes. Leave it in my vehicle and just throw it on real fast if I'm going to be cruising through a less-than-perfect environment. Unlike the police, most criminals don't pay attention to the little things... like which hand you use to open your door. I could make like I'm reaching for my door handle with my right hand, when in reality I'm reaching for the trigger on the gun tucked beneath my arm.

    It'd have to be something to practice with, too. It's not something I'd want to wing on the fly... especially in a high-stress situation.

    I'll say this though... if I feel the area is dangerous, I'll actually drive with my window DOWN. It seems somewhat counter-intuitive... but if you think about it, some ******* who tries to rob you is probably going to stick his arm through the open window... which would be a big mistake. Twist that thing up and pop a round off into his exposed ribs. With the window up, he's out of your reach and has full control of the situation. The open window is just too tempting, I think, for most bad guys to pass up... assuming they have it in their mind to target you already.

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    Situational awareness is definitely the key.

    I was ordering a little late night carryout at the drive thru window at Wendy's on Telegraph and Joy rd a few months ago when this guy starts walking up directly to my vehicle. I immediately stopped ordering and locked eyes with him, but he kept coming. When he was about 10ft from the front of my truck, I rotated a little in my seat and drew my weapon out of the holster. He must have known what I was doing because as soon as I drew my weapon, even though he couldn't see it, he made an immediate hard left and started moving away from me.

    Who knows, maybe he was just going to ask for some money or something, but I wasn't going to be in a position to be caught behind the curve.

    Chance favors the prepared mind!!


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    It's a real shame the guy is in critical condition in the hospital.

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    dougwg wrote:
    It's a real shame the guy is in critical condition in the hospital.

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    Veritas wrote:
    I'll say this though... if I feel the area is dangerous, I'll actually drive with my window DOWN. It seems somewhat counter-intuitive... but if you think about it, some ******* who tries to rob you is probably going to stick his arm through the open window... which would be a big mistake. Twist that thing up and pop a round off into his exposed ribs. With the window up, he's out of your reach and has full control of the situation. The open window is just too tempting, I think, for most bad guys to pass up... assuming they have it in their mind to target you already.
    Sounds like a ...a....well, it sounds ....like a trap. :what:

    Am I reading this right? Are you trying to set up..... an impromptu execution opportunity (IEU)?

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    Hank, if you were from Michigan, you would know it's unlawful to bait here in the lower peninsula.springerdave.

    edit sp.

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    HankT wrote:
    Sounds like a ...a....well, it sounds ....like a trap. :what:

    Am I reading this right? Are you trying to set up..... an impromptu execution opportunity (IEU)?
    Not a trap at all. I call it "controlling the situation". As I stated previously, if someone has it in their mind to target me, then I want them to do it on MY terms where I have the most control. That's all. Don't read more into it than what's written.

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    Veritas wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Veritas wrote:
    I'll say this though... if I feel the area is dangerous, I'll actually drive with my window DOWN. It seems somewhat counter-intuitive... but if you think about it, some ******* who tries to rob you is probably going to stick his arm through the open window... which would be a big mistake. Twist that thing up and pop a round off into his exposed ribs. With the window up, he's out of your reach and has full control of the situation. The open window is just too tempting, I think, for most bad guys to pass up... assuming they have it in their mind to target you already.
    Sounds like a ...a....well, it sounds ....like a trap. :what:

    Am I reading this right? Are you trying to set up..... an impromptu execution opportunity (IEU)?
    Not a trap at all. I call it "controlling the situation". As I stated previously, if someone has it in their mind to target me, then I want them to do it on MY terms where I have the most control. That's all. Don't read more into it than what's written.
    So, open up your vehicle window based on the criterion of a dangerous area and you, um just lay in wait for someone (who you surmise would havedone it anyway) to stick his hand or arm in there? Then you quickly, uhm, close the window?

    Then you, er, shoot him. That's your plan?

    Is this the passenger window you keep open? Or the driver's side window? Or both?


    Do you do this in the winter, too?



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    HankT wrote:
    Veritas wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Veritas wrote:
    I'll say this though... if I feel the area is dangerous, I'll actually drive with my window DOWN. It seems somewhat counter-intuitive... but if you think about it, some ******* who tries to rob you is probably going to stick his arm through the open window... which would be a big mistake. Twist that thing up and pop a round off into his exposed ribs. With the window up, he's out of your reach and has full control of the situation. The open window is just too tempting, I think, for most bad guys to pass up... assuming they have it in their mind to target you already.
    Sounds like a ...a....well, it sounds ....like a trap. :what:

    Am I reading this right? Are you trying to set up..... an impromptu execution opportunity (IEU)?
    Not a trap at all. I call it "controlling the situation". As I stated previously, if someone has it in their mind to target me, then I want them to do it on MY terms where I have the most control. That's all. Don't read more into it than what's written.
    So, open up your vehicle window based on the criterion of a dangerous area and you, um just lay in wait for someone (who you surmise would havedone it anyway) to stick his hand or arm in there? Then you quickly, uhm, close the window?

    Then you, er, shoot him. That's your plan?

    Is this the passenger window you keep open? Or the driver's side window? Or both?


    Do you do this in the winter, too?

    Veritas:I'll actually drive with my window DOWN.

    Hank T:um just lay in wait for someone.

    Big difference there Hank! Sir, this post and others like it speaks VOLUMES. Please stop being part of the problem and be part of the solution.

    BTW - I see you finally put in a location, albeit imprecise.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    My NRA approved and state certified CWP instructor taught to 'shoot a hijacker when his hand breaks the plane of the window'. You should be in reasonable fear based on news reports of hijackings and their common results.

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    Hank, if you were from Michigan, you would know that we drive around in the winter with the windows down so we don't have to deal with the frost on the glass and the heater up full blast. . We don't do it to bait crooks.:shock:.Why would you think that, are you projecting?springerdave.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    My NRA approved and state certified CWP instructor taught to 'shoot a hijacker when his hand breaks the plane of the window'. You should be in reasonable fear based on news reports of hijackings and their common results.
    Well, I think we're talking about robbers, not hijackers, Doug. But does that rulealso apply if someone, say, keeps his passenger side window open...with, say, a bulging money clip on the empty passenger seat....with, say, a signtaped to the door that reads...."Do you feel lucky?"

    :P



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    HankT wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    My NRA approved and state certified CWP instructor taught to 'shoot a hijacker when his hand breaks the plane of the window'. You should be in reasonable fear based on news reports of hijackings and their common results.
    Well, I think we're talking about robbers, not hijackers, Doug. But does that rulealso apply if someone, say, keeps his passenger side window open...with, say, a bulging money clip on the empty passenger seat....with, say, a signtaped to the door that reads...."Do you feel lucky?"

    :P

    Hank you ARE projecting, aren't you?

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    HankT wrote:
    So, open up your vehicle window based on the criterion of a dangerous area and you, um just lay in wait for someone (who you surmise would havedone it anyway) to stick his hand or arm in there? Then you quickly, uhm, close the window?

    No, um, I don't, um, wait for someone to, um, stick their arm in my window and, um, try to roll it up.

    First of all, I have the freedom to drive with my windows down if I so choose. I shouldn't HAVE to put my windows up in order to ward off an attack.

    Secondly, and I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but bullets have been known to break through glass. This means that someone standing outside my closed window with a gun can shoot me. If the window is down, however, they're much more likely to put their arm through the opening and point the gun directly at me. In this position, I stand a much better chance of surviving.

    I don't know how fast you are, but I'm not fast enough to dodge a bullet. I'd rather take my chances with wrestling a gun away that's within arms reach than trying to duck to avoid a bullet fired at a distance of 2 feet away.

    Then you, er, shoot him. That's your plan?

    Only if necessary.

    Is this the passenger window you keep open? Or the driver's side window? Or both?

    Whichever window(s) I FEEL like keeping open. Generally, I drive with my driver window down; regardless where I am.


    Do you do this in the winter, too?

    As a matter of fact I do. I'll kick the heat on and drop the window down about halfway... I enjoy the fresh air. Funny thing about car windows is that when you roll the one down closest to you, the air circulates in such a way that you don't get cold. Rolling down the passenger window has the opposite effect... you'll get much colder.
    I'm sorry if you disagree, but there is nothing criminal about choosing to drive with my window(s) down. There is, however, something criminal about a man who would reach into someone's vehicle in attempt to harm them or take what doesn't belong to them.

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    HankT wrote:
    Well, I think we're talking about robbers, not hijackers, Doug. But does that rulealso apply if someone, say, keeps his passenger side window open...with, say, a bulging money clip on the empty passenger seat....with, say, a signtaped to the door that reads...."Do you feel lucky?"
    Don't be coy. We're talking about carjackers... it's the same concept; one involves an aircraft and the other involves an automobile.

    And to answer your ridiculous question: Even if someone DID leave their passenger window open with a wad of money on the seat, then taped a sign to the door asking if they feel lucky, it still does not give anyone the right to reach in and take the money. It's still theft.

    Now let's take a break from La-La Land and get back to reality: We're talking about carjackers... not idiotic situations in which someone puts themselves in victimizing situations.

    If a carjacker wants your vehicle, they're going to make a bid for it. Window up, window down... it doesn't matter. A bullet can enter the vehicle whether there's a 1/4 inch piece of glass is in the way or not. I'd rather take my chances with a carjacker who puts the gun close enough to my body so that I can grab it; rather than deal with the one who's gun is out of my reach but still leveled at my head.

    I don't know where you're from... but carjackers in Detroit shoot people all the time; even when the victim doesn't put up a fight. As I mentioned before, someone I know was recently shot not once, but TWICE, during a carjacking in which he surrendered his vehicle without protest.

    If someone has the nerve to put a gun to my face or chest, they damn well better prepared to deal with the consequences. Law abiding citizens who take measures to protect themselves are not the criminals here... even if they choose to roll their window down. An open window is not an invitation, it's a tactical advantage.

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    Veritas wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Well, I think we're talking about robbers, not hijackers, Doug. But does that rulealso apply if someone, say, keeps his passenger side window open...with, say, a bulging money clip on the empty passenger seat....with, say, a signtaped to the door that reads...."Do you feel lucky?"
    Don't be coy. We're talking about carjackers... it's the same concept; one involves an aircraft and the other involves an automobile.

    And to answer your ridiculous question: Even if someone DID leave their passenger window open with a wad of money on the seat, then taped a sign to the door asking if they feel lucky, it still does not give anyone the right to reach in and take the money. It's still theft.

    Now let's take a break from La-La Land and get back to reality: We're talking about carjackers... not idiotic situations in which someone puts themselves in victimizing situations.

    If a carjacker wants your vehicle, they're going to make a bid for it. Window up, window down... it doesn't matter. A bullet can enter the vehicle whether there's a 1/4 inch piece of glass is in the way or not. I'd rather take my chances with a carjacker who puts the gun close enough to my body so that I can grab it; rather than deal with the one who's gun is out of my reach but still leveled at my head.

    I don't know where you're from... but carjackers in Detroit shoot people all the time; even when the victim doesn't put up a fight. As I mentioned before, someone I know was recently shot not once, but TWICE, during a carjacking in which he surrendered his vehicle without protest.

    If someone has the nerve to put a gun to my face or chest, they damn well better prepared to deal with the consequences. Law abiding citizens who take measures to protect themselves are not the criminals here... even if they choose to roll their window down. An open window is not an invitation, it's a tactical advantage.
    Let's talk about them one at a time. Robbers and hijackers.

    Here's what you initially said. You said "rob you"

    HankT wrote:
    Veritas wrote:
    I'll say this though... if I feel the area is dangerous, I'll actually drive with my window DOWN. It seems somewhat counter-intuitive... but if you think about it, some ******* who tries to rob you is probably going to stick his arm through the open window... which would be a big mistake. Twist that thing up and pop a round off into his exposed ribs. With the window up, he's out of your reach and has full control of the situation. The open window is just too tempting, I think, for most bad guys to pass up... assuming they have it in their mind to target you already.
    Sounds like a ...a....well, it sounds ....like a trap. :what:

    Am I reading this right? Are you trying to set up..... an impromptu execution opportunity (IEU)?


    It seems you are actually serious about keeping your window open, "if ... the area is dangerous," to keep your (passenger?) window down!

    This, you figure, is a good thing ....because you can catch someone by raising the window suddenly. So that then, you can shoot them more easily and with more effectiveness!

    This is YOURtactic and if you are indeed serious about it, then my comment is that it's the most absurd tactic that I have heard in a long, long while.

    It makes no sense whatsover--unless you START with the premise that your goal is to SHOOT A GUN, WITHOUT FAIL,in any and all attempts at self-defense against robbers.

    The hijacker case is somewhat different, to be sure. But if your tactic for that starts with lowering a window (passenger side?) to protect against a hijacker threat is also absurd.

    Good Lord, man, you must be watching too many action-adventure movies. Best of luck with your, uhm, ideas about self-defense....





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