• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Detroit mugger critical after victim retaliates

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
Invisible Mode
imported post

Doug Huffman wrote:
My NRA approved and state certified CWP instructor taught to 'shoot a hijacker when his hand breaks the plane of the window'. You should be in reasonable fear based on news reports of hijackings and their common results.

Well, I think we're talking about robbers, not hijackers, Doug. But does that rulealso apply if someone, say, keeps his passenger side window open...with, say, a bulging money clip on the empty passenger seat....with, say, a signtaped to the door that reads...."Do you feel lucky?"

:p
 

springerdave

Regular Member
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
665
Location
Northern lower & Keweenaw area, Michigan, USA
imported post

HankT wrote:
Doug Huffman wrote:
My NRA approved and state certified CWP instructor taught to 'shoot a hijacker when his hand breaks the plane of the window'. You should be in reasonable fear based on news reports of hijackings and their common results.

Well, I think we're talking about robbers, not hijackers, Doug. But does that rulealso apply if someone, say, keeps his passenger side window open...with, say, a bulging money clip on the empty passenger seat....with, say, a signtaped to the door that reads...."Do you feel lucky?"

:p

Hank you ARE projecting, aren't you?
 

Veritas

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
662
Location
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
imported post

HankT wrote:
So, open up your vehicle window based on the criterion of a dangerous area and you, um just lay in wait for someone (who you surmise would havedone it anyway) to stick his hand or arm in there? Then you quickly, uhm, close the window?

No, um, I don't, um, wait for someone to, um, stick their arm in my window and, um, try to roll it up.

First of all, I have the freedom to drive with my windows down if I so choose. I shouldn't HAVE to put my windows up in order to ward off an attack.

Secondly, and I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but bullets have been known to break through glass. This means that someone standing outside my closed window with a gun can shoot me. If the window is down, however, they're much more likely to put their arm through the opening and point the gun directly at me. In this position, I stand a much better chance of surviving.

I don't know how fast you are, but I'm not fast enough to dodge a bullet. I'd rather take my chances with wrestling a gun away that's within arms reach than trying to duck to avoid a bullet fired at a distance of 2 feet away.

Then you, er, shoot him. That's your plan?

Only if necessary.

Is this the passenger window you keep open? Or the driver's side window? Or both?

Whichever window(s) I FEEL like keeping open. Generally, I drive with my driver window down; regardless where I am.


Do you do this in the winter, too?

As a matter of fact I do. I'll kick the heat on and drop the window down about halfway... I enjoy the fresh air. Funny thing about car windows is that when you roll the one down closest to you, the air circulates in such a way that you don't get cold. Rolling down the passenger window has the opposite effect... you'll get much colder.
I'm sorry if you disagree, but there is nothing criminal about choosing to drive with my window(s) down. There is, however, something criminal about a man who would reach into someone's vehicle in attempt to harm them or take what doesn't belong to them.
 

Veritas

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
662
Location
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
imported post

HankT wrote:
Well, I think we're talking about robbers, not hijackers, Doug. But does that rulealso apply if someone, say, keeps his passenger side window open...with, say, a bulging money clip on the empty passenger seat....with, say, a signtaped to the door that reads...."Do you feel lucky?"
Don't be coy. We're talking about carjackers... it's the same concept; one involves an aircraft and the other involves an automobile.

And to answer your ridiculous question: Even if someone DID leave their passenger window open with a wad of money on the seat, then taped a sign to the door asking if they feel lucky, it still does not give anyone the right to reach in and take the money. It's still theft.

Now let's take a break from La-La Land and get back to reality: We're talking about carjackers... not idiotic situations in which someone puts themselves in victimizing situations.

If a carjacker wants your vehicle, they're going to make a bid for it. Window up, window down... it doesn't matter. A bullet can enter the vehicle whether there's a 1/4 inch piece of glass is in the way or not. I'd rather take my chances with a carjacker who puts the gun close enough to my body so that I can grab it; rather than deal with the one who's gun is out of my reach but still leveled at my head.

I don't know where you're from... but carjackers in Detroit shoot people all the time; even when the victim doesn't put up a fight. As I mentioned before, someone I know was recently shot not once, but TWICE, during a carjacking in which he surrendered his vehicle without protest.

If someone has the nerve to put a gun to my face or chest, they damn well better prepared to deal with the consequences. Law abiding citizens who take measures to protect themselves are not the criminals here... even if they choose to roll their window down. An open window is not an invitation, it's a tactical advantage.
 

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
Invisible Mode
imported post

Veritas wrote:
HankT wrote:
Well, I think we're talking about robbers, not hijackers, Doug. But does that rulealso apply if someone, say, keeps his passenger side window open...with, say, a bulging money clip on the empty passenger seat....with, say, a signtaped to the door that reads...."Do you feel lucky?"
Don't be coy. We're talking about carjackers... it's the same concept; one involves an aircraft and the other involves an automobile.

And to answer your ridiculous question: Even if someone DID leave their passenger window open with a wad of money on the seat, then taped a sign to the door asking if they feel lucky, it still does not give anyone the right to reach in and take the money. It's still theft.

Now let's take a break from La-La Land and get back to reality: We're talking about carjackers... not idiotic situations in which someone puts themselves in victimizing situations.

If a carjacker wants your vehicle, they're going to make a bid for it. Window up, window down... it doesn't matter. A bullet can enter the vehicle whether there's a 1/4 inch piece of glass is in the way or not. I'd rather take my chances with a carjacker who puts the gun close enough to my body so that I can grab it; rather than deal with the one who's gun is out of my reach but still leveled at my head.

I don't know where you're from... but carjackers in Detroit shoot people all the time; even when the victim doesn't put up a fight. As I mentioned before, someone I know was recently shot not once, but TWICE, during a carjacking in which he surrendered his vehicle without protest.

If someone has the nerve to put a gun to my face or chest, they damn well better prepared to deal with the consequences. Law abiding citizens who take measures to protect themselves are not the criminals here... even if they choose to roll their window down. An open window is not an invitation, it's a tactical advantage.

Let's talk about them one at a time. Robbers and hijackers.

Here's what you initially said. You said "rob you"

HankT wrote:
Veritas wrote:
I'll say this though... if I feel the area is dangerous, I'll actually drive with my window DOWN. It seems somewhat counter-intuitive... but if you think about it, some jackass who tries to rob you is probably going to stick his arm through the open window... which would be a big mistake. Twist that thing up and pop a round off into his exposed ribs. With the window up, he's out of your reach and has full control of the situation. The open window is just too tempting, I think, for most bad guys to pass up... assuming they have it in their mind to target you already.

Sounds like a ...a....well, it sounds ....like a trap. :what:

Am I reading this right? Are you trying to set up..... an impromptu execution opportunity (IEU)?



It seems you are actually serious about keeping your window open, "if ... the area is dangerous," to keep your (passenger?) window down!

This, you figure, is a good thing ....because you can catch someone by raising the window suddenly. So that then, you can shoot them more easily and with more effectiveness!

This is YOURtactic and if you are indeed serious about it, then my comment is that it's the most absurd tactic that I have heard in a long, long while.

It makes no sense whatsover--unless you START with the premise that your goal is to SHOOT A GUN, WITHOUT FAIL,in any and all attempts at self-defense against robbers.

The hijacker case is somewhat different, to be sure. But if your tactic for that starts with lowering a window (passenger side?) to protect against a hijacker threat is also absurd.

Good Lord, man, you must be watching too many action-adventure movies. Best of luck with your, uhm, ideas about self-defense....
 

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
Invisible Mode
imported post

Veritas wrote:
HankT wrote:
So, open up your vehicle window based on the criterion of a dangerous area and you, um just lay in wait for someone (who you surmise would havedone it anyway) to stick his hand or arm in there? Then you quickly, uhm, close the window?

No, um, I don't, um, wait for someone to, um, stick their arm in my window and, um, try to roll it up.

First of all, I have the freedom to drive with my windows down if I so choose. I shouldn't HAVE to put my windows up in order to ward off an attack.

Secondly, and I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but bullets have been known to break through glass. This means that someone standing outside my closed window with a gun can shoot me. If the window is down, however, they're much more likely to put their arm through the opening and point the gun directly at me. In this position, I stand a much better chance of surviving.

I don't know how fast you are, but I'm not fast enough to dodge a bullet. I'd rather take my chances with wrestling a gun away that's within arms reach than trying to duck to avoid a bullet fired at a distance of 2 feet away.

Then you, er, shoot him. That's your plan?

Only if necessary.

Is this the passenger window you keep open? Or the driver's side window? Or both?

Whichever window(s) I FEEL like keeping open. Generally, I drive with my driver window down; regardless where I am.


Do you do this in the winter, too?

As a matter of fact I do. I'll kick the heat on and drop the window down about halfway... I enjoy the fresh air. Funny thing about car windows is that when you roll the one down closest to you, the air circulates in such a way that you don't get cold. Rolling down the passenger window has the opposite effect... you'll get much colder.
I'm sorry if you disagree, but there is nothing criminal about choosing to drive with my window(s) down. There is, however, something criminal about a man who would reach into someone's vehicle in attempt to harm them or take what doesn't belong to them.

In-dangerous-areas-you-actually-want-to-have-an-armed-attacker-stick-his-gun-into-your-car-so-that-he-will-point-his-gun-at-you-very-close-to-your-person-and-then-you-will-have-a-tactical-advantage?

And-you-drive-your-car-with-the-windows-down-in-the-winter.

Is that it?
 

Veritas

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
662
Location
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
imported post

HankT wrote:
In-dangerous-areas-you-actually-want-to-have-an-armed-attacker-stick-his-gun-into-your-car-so-that-he-will-point-his-gun-at-you-very-close-to-your-person-and-then-you-will-have-a-tactical-advantage?

And-you-drive-your-car-with-the-windows-down-in-the-winter.

Is that it?
No. I do not WANT anyone to point a gun at me in any circumstance. However, if it's going to happen, I would much rather it happen at a distance in which I have a fighting chance at wrestling it away. You have no chance at avoiding a bullet when a gun is pointed at you through a closed window. If they stick their hand through an OPEN window, you stand a much better chance at avoiding injury.

I drive with my drivers window about halfway down in the winter because, like I said, I feel more comfortable with the fresh air.

At this point, I'm done discussing my driving habits with you. I don't know who you think are, but I'm pretty sure you're not the window police. You can continue living in your own world... that's fine. I'll live in mine.

Good day to you.
 

Veritas

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
662
Location
Oakland County, Michigan, USA
imported post

HankT wrote:
Let's talk about them one at a time. Robbers and hijackers.

Robbers and carjackers are the same thing. When I made the distinction to you earlier, it was only to prevent you from arguing semantics about the difference between a HIJACKER and A ROBBER/CARJACKER.

Here's what you initially said. You said "rob you"

I don't need you to read anything back to me... I know what I wrote. Carjackers ARE robbers... they steal your car and everything in it, do they not?

It seems you are actually serious about keeping your window open, "if ... the area is dangerous," to keep your (passenger?) window down!

I am serious about it. What's so hard to believe about it?

This, you figure, is a good thing ....because you can catch someone by raising the window suddenly. So that then, you can shoot them more easily and with more effectiveness!

Why don't YOU go back and read what I typed rather than trying to tell ME what I typed? Because I never said anything about rolling the window up on anyone.

What I said was that if someone is going to point a gun at me, I would rather it be within reach so that I can make a go at trying to disarm them. With a window up, how do you propose one try to grab the gun? Should they put their finger up and say, "One moment please... let me just roll this window down real quick so I can grab your gun"?

Driving with my window down is NOT meant to attract attention. As I said before, if you are being targeted, you will be attacked whether your window is up or whether your window is down. IF I'm going to be targeted, I would rather my window is down because that means the carjacker is probably going to stick his gun IN my car, giving me an opportunity to twist it away from him. An opportunity I would've have if he pointed his gun at me with my window rolled up.

Either you are truly dense and just don't get it, or you are trying to mince words for sake of argument. In either case, I will not revisit this explanation again. You either get it or you don't... I don't care either way.

It makes no sense whatsover--unless you START with the premise that your goal is to SHOOT A GUN, WITHOUT FAIL,in any and all attempts at self-defense against robbers.

This isn't about shooting someone... it's about self defense. If I'm able to wrestle the gun away without incident, then there is no need to shoot anyone. However, if things start to go south, then I would try to twist their arm up to keep the gun out of my face long enough for me to draw mine. Simple as that.

The hijacker case is somewhat different, to be sure. But if your tactic for that starts with lowering a window (passenger side?) to protect against a hijacker threat is also absurd.

Again, you fail to read my words properly. The only time I ever referred to the passenger window was when explaining how air in a vehicle circulates. I never insinuated that I roll the passenger window down as a method to better defend myself.
 

Springfield Smitty

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
296
Location
OKC, OK (Heading back to MI very soon - thank good
imported post

Doug Huffman wrote:
My NRA approved and state certified CWP instructor taught to 'shoot a hijacker when his hand breaks the plane of the window'. You should be in reasonable fear based on news reports of hijackings and their common results.

As I have said before, unless your CWP instructor is a lawyer, you should not take legal advice from him / her.

I am also a certified NRA instructor and former LEO. I would NEVER make the above statement. The circumstances involved with each and every defensive encounter are VERY different and I do not agree one bit with the information your instructor gave you.

Unless that person has a weapon, you have no idea if they plan to hijack your vehicle. What if that person reaching into your car has just been attacked and is coming to you for help?
 
Top