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Thread: Give up 2A and 4A rights.

  1. #1
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    First, I would like to give all of you a word of thanks. I came across this site while deciding to OC while waiting for my CC permit. I have since became well versed in state, federal, constitutional and SCOTUS laws/rights/decisions. I now predominately OC and have ran across many eductional oppurtunities because of it. After 6+ months of daily carrying everywhere, not a single bad incident -- yet. So again, thanks to everyone.

    Now, for what may become my largest problem and decision to date:

    The company I work for (8 years now) has always had a sign posted as you enter the parking lot that says "No weapons allowed" and it is also posted the same in the employee manual. Now that is not the real problem because so many place do that these days and NC law has not been updated to prevent such silliness yet. I have explained to HR that it strips me of my right to self defense between home and work. (I won"t go into all the boring detail on how this whole topic came up at work) Also it puts those who have a CC in extreme jeapordy because it becomes a criminal act if violated. Also, it is well know that we have several hunters that work there who hunt before going in to work and they usually have a rifle in the car (kind of a don't ask don't tell and hide it well situation). I have also tried to explain to them that I understand private property rights better than most and stand up for that as much as any other rights. And if I were to be seen with a weapon outside my car, they would have all rights to terminate my employment or even call the police if so desired. However, my personal property just happens to be parked on theirs and they have no right to it minus a search warrent.

    Now, here comes the real problem. It appears we (all employees) are heading toward having to sign a document on condition of continued employment. This document explains the no weapons stance, defines everything that is their property, that it covers anything brought onto their property including vehicles, bookbags, briefcases, purses, etc and also covers all vendors, contractors and visitors. Furthermore, you have to sign giving consent to search ALL things listed prior at any time they wish.

    I get pissed at the thought of warrentless searchs of bags, purses, etc which are actually removed from a vehicle and brought into the workplace. But my whole being screams "F*$k You" at the thought of rolling over on searching my vehicle on the company's whim. This is not a police state and the freaking LEO's don't even have that much leadway.

    So please, help me with both your thoughts and some advise on what to do next. Once the trap is sprang, can we insist on time to consult an attorney or can they insist on signing immediately or leave? What kind of attorney should be contacted? Does anyone off hand know the laws involved here?

    As a side, I only ask that responses are not about how this is a "right to work" state and they can fire anyone anytime. I am aware of this but see this being more like firing someone for refusing to refrain from ever saying anything bad about Obama or for praying in the cafeteria before eating. They are specifically threatening to terminate for cause and that cause is refusing signing away 2 specific constitutional rights.

    I apologize for my first post being so lengthy but I wanted to make sure to give as much information as possible so that you all could help me the best.

  2. #2
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Your employment, and the conditions thereof, are a negotiated and negotiable agreement.

    So, negotiate.

    Then sign or not.

  3. #3
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    You have the at will part covered. Can you park off property and walk? If I ever get flack that is what I will try to do. If your property is not on theirs there is nothing they can do. My boss is a former sheriff and carries though, so it's unlikely for me.

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    Realistically, even if you sign the document, you can still refuse the search. If you do, you stand a chance of getting fired.

    That said, I would in no case ever allow my employer to search my vehicle. If they have suspicion of theft or something like that, they will need a law enforcement officer and a warrant. Yes I am perfectly willing to loose my job over it.

    Giving verbal or written consent to a search can be revoked at any time even if that consent is given to a LEO. If you really think it would be an issue, then start looking for a new job.

    Out of curiosity, what reason are they giving you as for the necessity of these consent to search forms?

    Personally, I would carry as normal in my car and any searches would be denied.

  5. #5
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    Wow, whatever company you work at sounds pretty extreme. I don't know your situation, but I would be equally pissed and very tempted to just quit!

    I'm very grateful to be self-employed!

  6. #6
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    Thanks guys for the responses. If not for having a CCW and legally being prohibited from carrying on posted property, I too would just carry and the company be damned. However, since I have a CCW and do not want to lose it, I am considering parking next door and walking (if they allow me to). I have "come across" the documents but they are not public and have not been sprung on us yet. I don't know if they are waiting for legal to approve or what, but it is obvious what is on the agenda.

    My plan for now is to start looking a job immediately and if I have to, sign the damn document, park off-site and refuse any searches if it comes to that (until I find other employment). I will keep everyone informed of what happens and their explanations if and when it does.

    Still though, does anyone know if I can challenge the "at will" part if their decision is based on not allowing warrentless searches? Anyone know the type of lawyer or can refer one?

    Thanks again to everyone!

  7. #7
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    hittman2 wrote:
    My plan for now is to start looking a job immediately and if I have to, sign the damn document, park off-site and refuse any searches if it comes to that (until I find other employment).
    So, your plan seems to be to, if the document is presented to you, to sign it--agreeing to its provisions--but with no intention of honoring your agreement.

    Is that it? Or am I misreading what you've said?




  8. #8
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    Well almost.....my plan as stated is to #1, start looking for new job. In meantime, sign document and never intend to honor it. Times are tough and I would do that to buy me some time if need be while job searching. Now if I had something in the wings, I would tell them to piss off and walk. I know it is not the perfect stand but neither is unemployment with a bad rap as a reference from your prior employer.

  9. #9
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    hittman2 wrote:
    Well almost.....my plan as stated is to #1, start looking for new job. In meantime, sign document and never intend to honor it. Times are tough and I would do that to buy me some time if need be while job searching. Now if I had something in the wings, I would tell them to piss off and walk. I know it is not the perfect stand but neither is unemployment with a bad rap as a reference from your prior employer.
    To say the least.

    But why be so passive about it? You have advance info about what's coming down. Can't you be proactive in some way to either delay the imposition of the new agreement or to modify it in some way that would make it less onerous? Or, maybe, in some way that you wouldn't have to blatantly give your word, with full knowledge that you were just, uhm, lying?

  10. #10
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    I wish there was. Unfortunately though when I said earlier that I "came across" the document, basically I should not have seen it. When these things happen, you are put in a bad place because if you say anything, you give away that you know something you shouldn't. Being in lower (bottom rung) management, I would have no input what-so-ever anyway and will only be able to publicly react once it is made public to all. At that time, I will argue, negotiate, bitch, moan and do whatever I can to make a difference. Unfortunately, I can't do that with those that are pushing this right now because I shouldn't even know it is happening.

    My focus right now is on how to react once it is sprung on all of us.

  11. #11
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    This has come up before, and I may not remember it correctly, but there was something said about an employer cannot legally force you to allow search of your vehicle because it is parked on their property. Working there, even though this is a right to work state, does not surrender your right to privacy.

    I would definitely consult a lawyer on this issue, quietly. That is like my saying, because you are parked in my driveway and in my house, I have the right to go through anything you have there. Not true.

    However, if you do decide to consult a lawyer and I am somehow correct, and you decide to fight against signing the paper, prepare to look for other employment, for I am sure they will try to find something to terminate you behind, or just terminate without cause. Which is legal.

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