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CC without a permit in a commons?

wylde007

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TFred wrote:
The sections of code you cite do not use the word curtilage, so I don't understand how you can conclude that they have any bearing on the CHP law's use of the word.
Curtilage is the area of land occupied by its dwelling and outbuildings either actually enclosed or considered as enclosed (read: private).

There isn't anything in that section to support that it does.
The Common Area of an apartment or condominium meets the minimum of this definition EASILY under http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+55-79.55

You might as well argue that a man standing below the bottom step of his front porch is no longer within the curtilage of his own home, yet I guarantee you there is no mention of the word "curtilage" in his deed. Would he be within his rights to carry concealed without a permit? Absolutely.

Mr. CFR has an undivided interest as a tenant in the common areas of the private property which should (yes, now I'm saying "should" since I keep getting naysayed) afford him all rights and privileges thereto as if he were an individual homeowner.
 

TFred

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wylde007 wrote:
TFred wrote:
The sections of code you cite do not use the word curtilage, so I don't understand how you can conclude that they have any bearing on the CHP law's use of the word.

Curtilage is the area of land occupied by its dwelling and outbuildings either actually enclosed or considered as enclosed (read: private).


There isn't anything in that section to support that it does.
The Common Area of an apartment or condominium meets the minimum of this definition EASILY under http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+55-79.55

You might as well argue that a man standing below the bottom step of his front porch is no longer within the curtilage of his own home, yet I guarantee you there is no mention of the word "curtilage" in his deed. Would he be within his rights to carry concealed without a permit? Absolutely.

Mr. CFR has an undivided interest as a tenant in the common areas of the private property which should (yes, now I'm saying "should" since I keep getting naysayed) afford him all rights and privileges thereto as if he were an individual homeowner.
Well, I guess we're all beating our heads against the opposite sides of the same wall here. The whole point of this difference of opinion is that there is no definition of curtilage in the code. Your definition is one of many, which may or may not be the same used by the judge and jury at your trial.

TFred
 

wylde007

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OK, allow me to go one step further. Assume you own a piece of property. Assume that the property is, for all intents and purposes, vacant. No buildings, no fences, no nothing.

Now, as owner of that property would you say that you do or do not feel you have the right to act upon that land in any way as if it were occupied by a dwelling?

It is true that the term "curtilage" appears in only four places in the State Code, two of which fall under the Firearms section 18.2-308 and 18.2-308.2. It would seem that the burden would fall to the arresting officer to prove:

1. That the person was NOT on property that may commonly be considered curtilage either by direct or joint ownership.
2. That the person did not have a right to exercise such rights on those grounds and
3. That the officer made a legal stop of that person upon such private property and had reasonable grounds or suspicion of wrongdoing to do so.

If you were standing in your front yard watering the grass and a LEO stopped in front of your house and then asked if you were armed and then arrested you if you did not have your permit on you, would that be a legal arrest? Of course not. And it is just as likely to occur that way in the confines of a private apartment/condominium complex as it is at a singular private residence.
 

TFred

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wylde007 wrote:
OK, allow me to go one step further. Assume you own a piece of property. Assume that the property is, for all intents and purposes, vacant. No buildings, no fences, no nothing.

Now, as owner of that property would you say that you do or do not feel you have the right to act upon that land in any way as if it were occupied by a dwelling?

It is true that the term "curtilage" appears in only four places in the State Code, two of which fall under the Firearms section 18.2-308 and 18.2-308.2. It would seem that the burden would fall to the arresting officer to prove:

1. That the person was NOT on property that may commonly be considered curtilage either by direct or joint ownership.
2. That the person did not have a right to exercise such rights on those grounds and
3. That the officer made a legal stop of that person upon such private property and had reasonable grounds or suspicion of wrongdoing to do so.

If you were standing in your front yard watering the grass and a LEO stopped in front of your house and then asked if you were armed and then arrested you if you did not have your permit on you, would that be a legal arrest? Of course not. And it is just as likely to occur that way in the confines of a private apartment/condominium complex as it is at a singular private residence.
I'm sorry, you are obviously taking a lot of time to wring this out, but I really don't think you are correct. The law does not say you can carry concealed on your own property, only in your "own place of abode or the curtilage thereof".

TFred
 

wylde007

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TFred wrote:
I'm sorry, you are obviously taking a lot of time to wring this out, but I really don't think you are correct. The law does not say you can carry concealed on your own property, only in your "own place of abode or the curtilage thereof".
So then, what do you define as "curtilage thereof"? Say you have ten acres. You have a house and perhaps a barn, yet they are separated by several hundred feet and a grove of trees.

Are you not entitled to act as sovereign on the property between your house and the barn or from your house to the mailbox?

I believe you are deliberately misconstruing the meaning of "curtilage" to meet your narrow definition, and that's fine for playing devil's advocate, but I'll be doggone if for one moment I believe that I am outside the "curtilage thereof" of my house when I break the plane of the eaves or overhang.

You haven't been able to provide any instance that qualifies your limited definition and I have offered probably a half-dozen to back mine up.

Like I said, you do what you feel is best for you and I will continue to do what I believe I have every right both by definition and under color of law.
 

TexasNative

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wylde007 wrote:
Are you not entitled to act as sovereign on the property between your house and the barn or from your house to the mailbox?
Nope, pretty clearly not. That's not to say it shouldn't be that way, it's just that the reality of law in the Commonwealth of Virginia is pretty clear that's not the way it is.

~ Boyd
 

TFred

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wylde007 wrote:
TFred wrote:
I'm sorry, you are obviously taking a lot of time to wring this out, but I really don't think you are correct. The law does not say you can carry concealed on your own property, only in your "own place of abode or the curtilage thereof".
So then, what do you define as "curtilage thereof"? Say you have ten acres. You have a house and perhaps a barn, yet they are separated by several hundred feet and a grove of trees.

Are you not entitled to act as sovereign on the property between your house and the barn or from your house to the mailbox?

I believe you are deliberately misconstruing the meaning of "curtilage" to meet your narrow definition, and that's fine for playing devil's advocate, but I'll be doggone if for one moment I believe that I am outside the "curtilage thereof" of my house when I break the plane of the eaves or overhang.

You haven't been able to provide any instance that qualifies your limited definition and I have offered probably a half-dozen to back mine up.

Like I said, you do what you feel is best for you and I will continue to do what I believe I have every right both by definition and under color of law.
Well that's sort of the point here. I don't have a definition of curtilage. The only information that has been provided on this thread that is even remotely relevant to what may happen in a future court case is the cites from previous court cases, such as the ones found at the link posted by skidmark earlier in this thread.

I really don't care what anyone else does. Whenever I step outside my house, and I am concealing a gun, I take my permit with me. That's the end of my concern.

The question was raised, and people sincerely tried to answer the question to the best of their ability. You have your view and others have their view. It's time for lunch.

TFred
 

wylde007

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TFred wrote:
Well that's sort of the point here. I don't have a definition of curtilage. The only information that has been provided on this thread that is even remotely relevant to what may happen in a future court case is the cites from previous court cases, such as the ones found at the link posted by skidmark earlier in this thread.
And you've taken that as Gospel on the entire issue. One case?

That's not nearly enough to convince me.

Enjoy your lunch. Make sure you take your permit with you.;)
 

TFred

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wylde007 wrote:
TFred wrote:
Well that's sort of the point here. I don't have a definition of curtilage. The only information that has been provided on this thread that is even remotely relevant to what may happen in a future court case is the cites from previous court cases, such as the ones found at the link posted by skidmark earlier in this thread.
And you've taken that as Gospel on the entire issue. One case?

That's not nearly enough to convince me.

Enjoy your lunch. Make sure you take your permit with you.;)
Aww, I can't carry at work.... but that's a whole 'nother thread! :D

TFred
 

Kevin108

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CRF250rider1000 wrote:
Well crap. I'll just have to carry it unloaded in a case till I get to my car.
I don't think so. If it's in a case, then you are transporting it. I don't think there's any requirement to have it unloaded.
 

nova

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Kevin108 wrote:
CRF250rider1000 wrote:
Well crap. I'll just have to carry it unloaded in a case till I get to my car.
I don't think so. If it's in a case, then you are transporting it. I don't think there's any requirement to have it unloaded.
Per VA law, to transport a handgun without a CHP, it must be unloaded and "securely wrapped" and you must be going to or from a dealer, range, or gunsmith. Federal FOPA states for interstate travel protection it must be unloaded and put in the trunk.
 

CRF250rider1000

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nova wrote:
Kevin108 wrote:
CRF250rider1000 wrote:
Well crap. I'll just have to carry it unloaded in a case till I get to my car.
I don't think so. If it's in a case, then you are transporting it. I don't think there's any requirement to have it unloaded.
Per VA law, to transport a handgun without a CHP, it must be unloaded and "securely wrapped" and you must be going to or from a dealer, range, or gunsmith. Federal FOPA states for interstate travel protection it must be unloaded and put in the trunk.
Doesn't it say "a member of a club?" I have my membership card for lafayette in my wallet.:)
 

nova

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CRF250rider1000 wrote:
nova wrote:
Kevin108 wrote:
CRF250rider1000 wrote:
Well crap. I'll just have to carry it unloaded in a case till I get to my car.
I don't think so. If it's in a case, then you are transporting it. I don't think there's any requirement to have it unloaded.
Per VA law, to transport a handgun without a CHP, it must be unloaded and "securely wrapped" and you must be going to or from a dealer, range, or gunsmith. Federal FOPA states for interstate travel protection it must be unloaded and put in the trunk.
Doesn't it say "a member of a club?" I have my membership card for lafayette in my wallet.:)
Oops yes that's correct.

For that matter, I have my Gilberts card (now Sharpshooters but my annual range card is from last winter)
 

Grapeshot

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When you rent an apartment, it is under your control subject to any lease restrictions and you may pretty much do what you want in your apt, on your deck or porch.

On the other hand in renting said apartment, you do not have control of the club house, swimming pool, common areas etc. You are allowed such use of them as the owner allows or permits via rules and regulations, and such rules are subject to change from time to time. Common areas are for common use as permitted - you don't make the rules there nor determine what is acceptable.

Yata hey
 

deepdiver

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Interesting discussion. I claim no expertise on VA law (although I do as my business deal daily with MO real estate law so am generally familiar with legal matters especially relating to real estate) however, it would seem to me, that depending on the placement and observability of the fenced in, card access, residents and guests only common area may indeed by curtilage based on all that is posted here both definitions and case law.

"[align=left]"[W]here private lands are exposed to observation by members of the public who may legitimately come upon the property, a citizen does not reasonably have an expectation of privacy in areas that the passing public can observe." Shaver, 30 Va. App. at 795, 520 S.E.2d at 396. [/align]
[align=left]Here, appellant had no reasonable expectation of privacy in the front entrance to his apartment, an area "observable by members of the public who might approach [his] residence, pass by, or lawfully be upon [the] property."" "[/align][align=left]It appears there is a sort of 3 point test here: the public might (1) approach (2) pass by (3) lawfully be upon. By virtue of it being fenced, gated and accessible only be card key #3 certainly does not apply. Depending on how the property is situated and what other access restrictions are present #2 and/or 3 may also not apply. In any case, the commons in question fail in at least 1 regard to the property not being curtilage per the court cite. And as the other case cited states, such matters of curtilage are determined on a case by case basis. I would be extremely hesitant to assert unilaterally, based on all information posted on this thread, that the subject commons area is not curtilage.
[/align][align=left]I think further discussion would require a more complete description by the OP as to the "lay of the land" as it were as to approachability of said commons and parking area by the general public. Just my $.02.
[/align]
 

wylde007

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@ deepdiver: what you're reciting is very similar to "Open Field Doctrine" and I will say, after all that I've laid out through my experience and expertise on the subject you are correct in that we do not have a complete, unquestionable picture of the area(s) in question.
 

CRF250rider1000

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front.jpg
all doors are keycarded and all gates are locked from the outside.
parking.jpg

gate.jpg

sunroom.jpg
 

ProShooter

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CRF250rider1000 wrote:
Doesn't it say "a member of a club?" I have my membership card for lafayette in my wallet.:)


Actually, it says "Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported".

I have always understood that to mean membership in something like IDPA. I dont believe it would apply to a club membership....it would be interesting to see if there's any case law on this.
 

nova

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ProShooter wrote:
CRF250rider1000 wrote:
Doesn't it say "a member of a club?" I have my membership card for lafayette in my wallet.:)


Actually, it says "Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organization who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported".

I have always understood that to mean membership in something like IDPA. I dont believe it would apply to a club membership....it would be interesting to see if there's any case law on this.
I'd have to argue the law was adopted when only the elite class could transport their hunting/sporting guns to and from their private membership ranges and they worded it as such:?
 
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