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Thread: PA Kid, 11, Accused of Shooting/Killing Pregnant Step-Mom

  1. #1
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    How in the heck does an 11-year-old have unrestricted acccess to a shotgun??? What fool would allow that to happen?????

    Anyway, looks like the Jordan Brown, apparently a kiddie goof with a gun, has a chance of skating on this case.

    If he gets off, it will be due to poor police work.

    I hate to see a murderer get away with the crime!





    Lawyer: Cops Wrongly Questioned Boy Accused Of Killing Dad's Pregnant Fiancee

    Motion Asks To Dismiss Jordan Brown's Statements At Elementary School

    August 26, 2009

    NEW CASTLE, Pa. -- Lawyers for 11-year-old Jordan Brown -- who's accused of shooting his father's pregnant girlfriend to death -- want evidence thrown out because they say the child didn't fully understand his rights when police interviewed him at his school.

    Brown was too young to be questioned on the February day that state police believe 26-year-old Kenzie Houk was killed at her Wampum farmhome, defense attorney Dennis Elisco said Wednesday.

    "The law is pretty clear," Elisco said after a motions hearing at the Lawrence County Courthouse. "When you have a juvenile, you look at all the factors, including their age, experience with law enforcement and the absence or presence of a parental figure or an adult -- somebody who is aligned with their interest who can advise them on the consequences of a waiver of their rights and of voluntarily giving statements to the police."

    Elisco asked a judge to dismiss statements that the child made to police, but District Attorney John Bongivengo argued against it, saying that a guidance counselor filled the adult role which Elisco said was lacking in Brown's interview at Mohawk Elementary School.

    The defense also asked for a search warrant that was executed on Houk's home to be deemed illegal because it wasn't signed by an officer.

    "They don't have any evidence that actually puts Jordan Brown in the house at the time of the death, whatever time that death might have been," said Elisco, who wants the entire case to be dismissed.

    The prosecution argued that Brown had gunshot residue on his shoulder and that his youth shotgun -- found in the boy's bedroom -- smelled as if it had been recently fired.

    Judge Dominick Motto said he may issue a ruling on the defense's requests sometime in the next 30 days.

    Brown is charged as an adult with criminal homicide and is being held without bail.

    http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/...03/detail.html

  2. #2
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    I think this kid is going to get off. Shoots a defenseless woman in the head and kills her and her unborn child....and he's gonna get off.

    Worse, the kid's father is going to get off, too, for giving some stupid 11-year old kid a loaded shotgun to keep around the house.






    Attorneys for boy held in killings ask dismissal
    Evidence improperly gathered, they claim


    Thursday, August 27, 2009
    By Sadie Gurman, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
    Attorneys for a Lawrence County boy accused of killing his father's pregnant fiance urged a judge to dismiss the case yesterday, days before the boy turns 12.

    Jordan Brown will spend his birthday Sunday at the Edmund L. Thomas Adolescent Detention Center in Erie, while attorneys Dennis Elisco and David Acker prepare to ask a judge to move the case to juvenile court.

    Jordan, who prosecutors say fatally shot Kenzie Houk, 26, with a 20-gauge shotgun as she lay in bed, is charged as an adult. An adolescent psychologist, Kirk Heilbrun, evaluated Jordan earlier this month and deemed him "amenable to juvenile rehabilitation," Mr. Elisco said.

    Dr. Heilbrun, head of the psychology department at Drexel University, couldn't be reached for comment last night.

    "Jordan has never been in trouble before," Mr. Elisco said. "He wants to go home."

    For the second time in as many months, Mr. Elisco and attorney David Acker told Lawrence County President Judge Dominick Motto yesterday that prosecutors have not offered enough evidence to charge the boy.

    They also want most of the prosecution's evidence dismissed, including statements Jordan made to a state trooper on Feb. 20, the day of the killing. Evidence gathered from the New Beaver farmhouse that day, including firearms, bloody and soiled clothing, spent ammunition, fingerprints and DNA, should be thrown out, the attorneys said, because a trooper did not sign a search warrant.

    Judge Motto did not rule on whether to suppress the information.

    Lawrence County District Attorney John Bongivengo told Judge Motto he has presented "more than probable cause for this case to go forward and pretty close to enough to sustain a conviction."

    "Everything yells that the defendant is responsible," he said.

    The boy's relatives -- as well as Ms. Houk's -- listened to the lawyers' arguments in silence, filling rows of seats on opposite sides of the wood-paneled courtroom. Jordan's father, Christopher Brown, a burly man in a black suit, sat in front; other relatives flanked him, some wearing brown ribbons on their lapels and bracelets with messages that read, "We love you, Jordan," and "We support Jordan."

    They declined to talk to reporters after the hour-long hearing, saying their attorneys had advised them not to.

    Absent from the hearing was Jordan, a short, pudgy-faced boy who Mr. Elisco said has grown taller and heavier while at the detention center.

    Mr. Brown has been visiting his son almost daily, Mr. Elisco said. Ms. Houk was pregnant with a full-term boy, whom she planned to name Christopher after his father.

    Jordan is also charged with killing the unborn child.

    Among other evidence, Mr. Acker and Mr. Elisco want statements Jordan made to Trooper Janice Wilson on the afternoon of the killing dismissed because, they said, she did not seek his father's permission to interview him at Mohawk Elementary School.

    Prosecutors said Jordan, a fifth-grader, was being questioned as a potential witness that day and not a suspect.

    Judge Motto did not set another hearing date. Mr. Elisco said he hopes to file a motion to decertify the case to juvenile court next week.



    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09239/993602-455.stm

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    WARNING:

    Fellas,

    HankT has a history here of posting news stories that generate heated debate and argument, most of which seems to stem from assumptions readers make to fill in for lack of detail in the news story.

    HankT also has a history here of numerous unnecessary sniping little comments, needling people.

    I consider that he feeds on the discord and acrimony he creates, that is to say he enjoys it.

    One way to short-circuit thisis to stick to the facts of the story, be careful of your assumptions, and don't argue with each other.



    Also, in this particular story, I would like to offer that no matter how strongly you feel about 5A rights, juveniles charged with murder, or any other volatile aspect of this story,be careful not to feed HankT bygetting into anargument over it.



    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    What is the law in PA on the age at which a juvenile can be charged as an adult?

    Seems to me that is more important than anything else, including the possible violation of the kid's rights during interrogation. IIRC the concept of school personnel standing in parens locus was shot down quite some time ago. That and all the other procedural issues need to wait till we find out if it's even legal to try the kid as an adult.

    And the reason this kid may "get away with murder" is because society has decided that humans may not be fully capable of reasoning and understanding the consequences of their actions until a certain age.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  5. #5
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    What is the law in PA on the age at which a juvenile can be charged as an adult?

    Seems to me that is more important than anything else, including the possible violation of the kid's rights during interrogation. IIRC the concept of school personnel standing in parens locus was shot down quite some time ago. That and all the other procedural issues need to wait till we find out if it's even legal to try the kid as an adult.

    And the reason this kid may "get away with murder" is because society has decided that humans may not be fully capable of reasoning and understanding the consequences of their actions until a certain age.
    The law obviously allows an 11 year-old to be so charged. Most state laws have flexibility built into the allowable decision.

    I agree that the issue of whether Jordan, at 11, can be charged as an adult is a very important issue.

    But it still doesn't change the fact that a defenseless woman was shot in the head with a shotgun and is now dead due to the acts of an undeveloped kid brain and an ethically challenged adult parent.

    Society does get to make those calls at the margin. But society

    Witness the case of this kid:

    Nathaniel Brazill, age 13, killed his seventh-grade teacher, Barry Grunow on May 26, 2001. He was convicted as an adult and sentenced to 28 years in prison.

    Nathaniel was an honor student in Lake Worth, Florida. Mr. Grunow was a popular teacher and Brazill's favorite.

    This case is very similar. Gun gotten from home, deceased shot in the head, undeveloped kid....

    Why the difference? Guess.

    The main point of the Jordan Brown murder is that a woman and her child are dead. Due to a kiddie goof with a gun.

    This kiddie goof somehow ended up being a member of the gun owner and user community. He, in a twisted and ironic way, is my fellow gun-owner. He is my brother. My compadre, my gun-shooting buddy.

    And that makes me want to puke.

  6. #6
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    HankT wrote:
    How in the heck does an 11-year-old have unrestricted acccess to a shotgun??? What fool would allow that to happen?????

    Keep and bear shall not be infringed. What part didn't you get?

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    Citizen wrote:
    WARNING:

    Fellas,

    HankT has a history here of posting news stories that generate heated debate and argument, most of which seems to stem from assumptions readers make to fill in for lack of detail in the news story.

    HankT also has a history here of numerous unnecessary sniping little comments, needling people.

    I consider that he feeds on the discord and acrimony he creates, that is to say he enjoys it.

    One way to short-circuit thisis to stick to the facts of the story, be careful of your assumptions, and don't argue with each other.



    Also, in this particular story, I would like to offer that no matter how strongly you feel about 5A rights, juveniles charged with murder, or any other volatile aspect of this story,be careful not to feed HankT bygetting into anargument over it.





    What Hank actually does is occasionally burst the bubble of the crowd that thinks legal guns never do any harm and legal gun owners never break the law or act stupidly. It's always a healthy reminder and good opportunity to discuss what went wrong and why... or you can just cry about it and say he's trolling.



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    AWDstylez wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    How in the heck does an 11-year-old have unrestricted acccess to a shotgun??? What fool would allow that to happen?????

    Keep and bear shall not be infringed. What part didn't you get?
    I think that he doesn't get your reasoning for seeming to believe that "keep and bear" = "can get away with murder."

  9. #9
    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    Let me guess, HankT's newest postulate: It's a bad strategy to shoot a pregnant lady.

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    AWDstylez wrote:
    SNIP What Hank actually does is occasionally burst the bubble of the crowd that thinks legal guns never do any harm and legal gun owners never break the law or act stupidly. It's always a healthy reminder and good opportunity to discuss what went wrong and why... or you can just cry about it and say he's trolling.
    Lets use some differentiation here, stylez. There is a difference between healthydiscussion and feeding a troll's desires.

    Also, there is a difference between trying to silence discussion, andcalling for what amounts to civility.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    It sounds to me like some people are so self important that they got all the facts of the case and managed to try and convict the necessary parties already.

    Or are we just making ASSumptions here based on minimal information? No one here is qualified to even make a guess as to what happened and who is actually responsible for this tragedy with the information provided.

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    Citizen wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    SNIP What Hank actually does is occasionally burst the bubble of the crowd that thinks legal guns never do any harm and legal gun owners never break the law or act stupidly. It's always a healthy reminder and good opportunity to discuss what went wrong and why... or you can just cry about it and say he's trolling.
    Lets use some differentiation here, stylez. There is a difference between healthydiscussion and feeding a troll's desires.

    I've had numerous talks with Hank via PM. Much like me, just because he doesn't swallow the agenda, hook, line and sinker, he is NOT a troll.

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    AWDstylez wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    SNIP What Hank actually does is occasionally burst the bubble of the crowd that thinks legal guns never do any harm and legal gun owners never break the law or act stupidly. It's always a healthy reminder and good opportunity to discuss what went wrong and why... or you can just cry about it and say he's trolling.
    Lets use some differentiation here, stylez. There is a difference between healthydiscussion and feeding a troll's desires.
    I've had numerous talks with Hank via PM. Much like me, just because he doesn't swallow the agenda, hook, line and sinker, he is NOT a troll.
    (chuckle)

    Trying to draw me into an argument? Oh, well. Since evasion and tangents seem to be your style, I'll put it back on course just this once.

    I never said anything about HankT swallowing the agendabeing whatmakes him a troll. I saida long history of unnecessary needling and baiting, and posting news stories that prompt fights upon which he feeds makes him a troll.

    But then you knewI said that because its just a little ways up the thread. In fact, youquoted it. So, you knew.

    Nice try, though.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    AWDstylez wrote:
    ... Much like me, just because he doesn't...
    "Much like me," eh?

    Aha! Proof!



    Outed!!

    compmanio365 wrote:
    The more I read, the more I believe two things:

    AWDStylez = HankT
    Devil's Advocate = LEO229

    Just look at the style of writing from these two, then go back and search for some of the posts from the mentioned "likely" characters previously on the forum. I think you might come to the same conclusion.


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    Citizen wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    SNIP What Hank actually does is occasionally burst the bubble of the crowd that thinks legal guns never do any harm and legal gun owners never break the law or act stupidly. It's always a healthy reminder and good opportunity to discuss what went wrong and why... or you can just cry about it and say he's trolling.
    Lets use some differentiation here, stylez. There is a difference between healthydiscussion and feeding a troll's desires.
    I've had numerous talks with Hank via PM. Much like me, just because he doesn't swallow the agenda, hook, line and sinker, he is NOT a troll.
    (But then you knewI said that because its just a little ways up the thread. In fact, youquoted it. So, you knew.

    Yea, I knew full well what you saidand Iposted this in response:

    What Hank actually does is occasionally burst the bubble of the crowd that thinks legal guns never do any harm and legal gun owners never break the law or act stupidly. It's always a healthy reminder and good opportunity to discuss what went wrong and why... or you can just cry about it and say he's trolling.

    But you knew I said that because it's just a little ways up the thread. In fact, you quoted it. So, you knew.



    You then went on to say that it's not healthy discussion because it's "feeding a troll's desires," to which I responded that he is NOT a troll, therefore it IS healthy discussion, because he's NOT trolling.


    Get it now? Maybetrydroppingthe pre-conceived notions about me being a troll too, and listen to what I'm actually saying.

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    HankT wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    ... Much like me, just because he doesn't...
    "Much like me," eh?

    Aha! Proof!



    Outed!!

    compmanio365 wrote:
    The more I read, the more I believe two things:

    AWDStylez = HankT
    Devil's Advocate = LEO229

    Just look at the style of writing from these two, then go back and search for some of the posts from the mentioned "likely" characters previously on the forum. I think you might come to the same conclusion.


    That must be why we troll together so often. Did you ever notice that we're always on at the same time? Same IP address to. ...and that writing style, legible, correct grammar, intelligent. How could I NOT be you?!?

  17. #17
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    (chuckle)

    Trying to draw me into an argument? Oh, well. Since evasion and tangents seem to be your style, I'll put it back on course just this once.

    I never said anything about HankT swallowing the agendabeing whatmakes him a troll. I saida long history of unnecessary needling and baiting, and posting news stories that prompt fights upon which he feeds makes him a troll.

    ...
    Can you point to an example thread of a HankT-posted news story that prompted a fight, Citizen?

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    What is the law in PA on the age at which a juvenile can be charged as an adult?

    Seems to me that is more important than anything else, including the possible violation of the kid's rights during interrogation. IIRC the concept of school personnel standing in parens locus was shot down quite some time ago. That and all the other procedural issues need to wait till we find out if it's even legal to try the kid as an adult.

    And the reason this kid may "get away with murder" is because society has decided that humans may not be fully capable of reasoning and understanding the consequences of their actions until a certain age.
    The law obviously allows an 11 year-old to be so charged. Most state laws have flexibility built into the allowable decision.

    I agree that the issue of whether Jordan, at 11, can be charged as an adult is a very important issue.
    Saying so does not make it obvious that the law allows it. A citation is needed to respond to my question of the age at which a minor child can be charged as an adult in PA. And how did you determine that "most state laws have flexibility built into the allowable decision"? No citation on that, either?

    And if you agree that the question of whether or not the kid can legally be charged as an adult, why are you so quick to jump in and assert (without a citation offered) that in fact he can be? Just because the DA says sodid file the charge/petitiondoes not necessarily make it legal.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  19. #19
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    HankT wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    (chuckle)

    Trying to draw me into an argument? Oh, well. Since evasion and tangents seem to be your style, I'll put it back on course just this once.

    I never said anything about HankT swallowing the agendabeing whatmakes him a troll. I saida long history of unnecessary needling and baiting, and posting news stories that prompt fights upon which he feeds makes him a troll.

    ...
    Can you point to an example thread of a HankT-posted news story that prompted a fight, Citizen?
    (chuckle)

    Nice try, Hank.

    You knowit, and I know it. I'm not going to play along as though your demand for proof affectsthe validity between you and I. The best it accomplishes for you is to plant doubt in the minds of others. Fine. Iconcede that most of those threads were lostback when we lost a big chunk--server glitch, or transferring to a larger server, I cannot recall.

    But thank you foraffording me, by invitation, the opportunity to explain further.

    You ended off posting news stories for quite a while, but back in the early days you were, like now, posting news stories almost every day, and sometimes more than once a day. Invariably the stories left out information crucial to arriving at a well-informed conclusion. Posters made unstated assumptions to fill in the missing info, then fights would break out.

    We have all witnessed your pointless needling and baiting. And your tactless, unnecessary, and introvertingposts pointing outinconsistencies and contradictions in other peoples posts. I've even seen a couple recently where you generalized against the entire forum. These points here are the reason I consider you a dark, nasty little being who feeds ondiscord and acrimony.

    I am warning others so that if you are planting the stories to enjoy the discord, they can avoid falling into feeding you. And can avoid falling into unnecessary arguments.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    (chuckle)

    Trying to draw me into an argument? Oh, well. Since evasion and tangents seem to be your style, I'll put it back on course just this once.

    I never said anything about HankT swallowing the agendabeing whatmakes him a troll. I saida long history of unnecessary needling and baiting, and posting news stories that prompt fights upon which he feeds makes him a troll.

    ...
    Can you point to an example thread of a HankT-posted news story that prompted a fight, Citizen?
    (chuckle)

    Nice try, Hank.

    You knowit, and I know it. I'm not going to play along as though your demand for proof affectsthe validity between you and I. The best it accomplishes for you is to plant doubt in the minds of others. Fine. Iconcede that most of those threads were lostback when we lost a big chunk--server glitch, or transferring to a larger server, I cannot recall.

    But thank you foraffording me, by invitation, the opportunity to explain further.

    You ended off posting news stories for quite a while, but back in the early days you were, like now, posting news stories almost every day, and sometimes more than once a day. Invariably the stories left out information crucial to arriving at a well-informed conclusion. Posters made unstated assumptions to fill in the missing info, then fights would break out.

    We have all witnessed your pointless needling and baiting. And your tactless, unnecessary, and introvertingposts pointing outinconsistencies and contradictions in other peoples posts. I've even seen a couple recently where you generalized against the entire forum. These points here are the reason I consider you a dark, nasty little being who feeds ondiscord and acrimony.

    I am warning others so that if you are planting the stories to enjoy the discord, they can avoid falling into feeding you. And can avoid falling into unnecessary arguments.
    No examples. No cites. No validation.

    No point. No nada.

    Just a self-appointed:



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    Well, folks. Hank was so concerned about his question in the post just above that he sent me a PM of his exact same question post. I guess to make sure I didn't miss it.

    I do have to correct one thing to be fair. I don't know that he feeds on the discord in the news story threads. I only strongly suspect it. So, I was over the top when I phrased it as though he does feed on it when Iresponded to AWDStylez.

    However, it is really interesting to note that he seems to only be taking issue with the news story part about being a troll. No denial or dispute from him on the points about needling and baiting others.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    However, it is really interesting to note that he seems to only be taking issue with the news story part about being a troll. No denial or dispute from him on the points about needling and baiting others.
    [Shaking head slowly]

    Citizen, Citizen, Citizen....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoqUwyHseg4





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    HankT wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    However, it is really interesting to note that he seems to only be taking issue with the news story part about being a troll. No denial or dispute from him on the points about needling and baiting others.
    [Shaking head slowly]

    Citizen, Citizen, Citizen....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoqUwyHseg4



    ROFLZZZ

    Favorited.

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    AWDstylez wrote:
    You then went on to say that it's not healthy discussion because it's "feeding a troll's desires," to which I responded that he is NOT a troll, therefore it IS healthy discussion, because he's NOT trolling.


    Get it now? Maybetrydroppingthe pre-conceived notions about me being a troll too, and listen to what I'm actually saying.
    Circular reasoning such as this normally leads to incorrect conclusions.


    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    wrightme wrote:
    AWDstylez wrote:
    You then went on to say that it's not healthy discussion because it's "feeding a troll's desires," to which I responded that he is NOT a troll, therefore it IS healthy discussion, because he's NOT trolling.


    Get it now? Maybetrydroppingthe pre-conceived notions about me being a troll too, and listen to what I'm actually saying.
    Circular reasoning such as this normally leads to incorrect conclusions.

    Pure stupidity. He's not a troll, therefore the premise is flawed. Everything concluded based on the fact that he's a troll is therefore wrong. You're a @#$%ing idiot.

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