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Thread: When OC becomes CC can a CPL be Demanded?

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    youre walking your dog and stop at the corner, right next to a cop, yourOCn your glock or etc. he says hi, i see you OC. he says, nice gun, carry on! there was no need or requirement for any further interaction. were all thinking, thats a perfect run in with LEO. he has no reason to ask for ID. he didnt try to defile your 2nd, 4th, or 5th A rights. you were commiting no crime, the mere presence of a gun is not RAS of a crime, he knows your armed, and lacking any further information about your past, present, or your future intentions, there is no reason to think you are dangerous. you do of course have $200, a big fat bank check, high limit credit card, pic ID, and your CPL, and a vidio/audio recorder. now just before the walk signal comes on for you. you pull up your tucked in sweatshirt and pull it down outside and over, to cover your OC, making it now CC! you say seeya to the nice cop and step off the curb. you still are as armed as you were a second ago, you are commmiting no crime,and lacking any further information about your past, present, or your future intentions, there is no reason to think you are any moredangerous than you were a second ago. now the cop has no RAS to "pat down", for officers safety, he knew you "were", armed. (terry v ohio). he cant stop or detain you withoutRAS of a crime, to ask for ID. (kolender v lawson)/(state v peters). im feeling very strongly that at the time you covered your gun, in this scenerio, that the only thing the cop can legaly do, is to watch for a crime! his chance to ask for a CPL is passed. you are now free to go! when you pass the next cop on the beat, youll be securly CCn, while walking your dog, legally, legally, legally! come on people! whats wrong with my reasoning? if you read this far; you got to have something to say! say it! i want 100% participation! EDIT HERE! if your from outa state, or from virginia, please keep in mind that this topic is particular to the state of washington! not the other states, or virginia! i would be proud to march for our 2nd A rights in VIRGINIA, with you guys,or any other state, with you guys. but im lookin for my state law, and the interpatation, right down todown to the gnats a$$.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    I agree to a point. While I think the average cop wouldnt stop you, a wild-haired cop might ask you for your CPL, since having a concealed pistol without a permit is a crime. This is a situation i will have to ponder some more.

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
    youre walking your dog and stop at the corner, right next to a cop, yourOCn your glock or etc. he says hi, i see you OC. he says, nice gun, carry on! there was no need or requirement for any further interaction. were all thinking, thats a perfect run in with LEO. he has no reason to ask for ID. he didnt try to defile your 2nd, 4th, or 5th A rights. you were commiting no crime, the mere presence of a gun is not RAS of a crime, he knows your armed, and lacking any further information about your past, present, or your future intentions, there is no reason to think you are dangerous. you do of course have $200, a big fat bank check, high limit credit card, pic ID, and your CPL, and a vidio/audio recorder. now just before the walk signal comes on for you. you pull up your tucked in sweatshirt and pull it down outside and over, to cover your OC, making it now CC! you say seeya to the nice cop and step off the curb. you still are as armed as you were a second ago, you are commmiting no crime,and lacking any further information about your past, present, or your future intentions, there is no reason to think you are any moredangerous than you were a second ago. now the cop has no RAS to "pat down", for officers safety, he knew you "were", armed. (terry v ohio). he cant stop or detain you withoutRAS of a crime, to ask for ID. (kolender v lawson)/(state v peters). im feeling very strongly that at the time you covered your gun, in this scenerio, that the only thing the cop can legaly do, is to watch for a crime! his chance to ask for a CPL is passed. you are now free to go! when you pass the next cop on the beat, youll be securly CCn, while walking your dog, legally, legally, legally! come on people! whats wrong with my reasoning? if you read this far; you got to have something to say! say it! i want 100% participation! EDIT HERE! if your from outa state, or from virginia, please keep in mind that this topic is particular to the state of washington! not the other states, or virginia! i would be proud to march for our 2nd A rights in VIRGINIA, with you guys,or any other state, with you guys. but im lookin for my state law, and the interpatation, right down todown to the gnats a$$.
    Based on the last statement, which I bold-faced, you'll need to retain an attorney to get an accurate answer that will meet your needs.

    However, this will all hinge on your mannerisms when you covered the firearm up with your sweatshirt. If you displayed any "furtive attempt to conceal" the weapon at all in the officer's presence he, by nature of your furtive attempt to conceal, can indeed detain you in order for you to display your CPL to him. (No, he cannot require you to give it to him, and in fact, if you do give it to him to look at you're actually committing a misdemeanor.) However, as he has already assessed you as a non-violent person since he engaged in a social stop (or a social conversation) with you already, once he has verified your CPL (if you were furtive in your attempt to conceal) he should let you go on your way.

    He should not be detaining you for officer safety once he has seen your CPL (if you were furtively concealing it), or else he should have done so before you went CC, with RAS of course.

    I agree with you that the way you portrayed the scenario, the LEO can't ask for your CPL, but he may do so anyways. Furthermore, if he does, the law is very unclear on whether or not you must display it to him. The law states that you must display it on demand when required by law to do so, but the law never states when that requirement is. I've always erred on the side of caution, and displayed my CPL on demand any time I've been doing something that does require a CPL and have been asked to display it.

    I believe there may be an Attorney General Opinion that briefly mentions a furtive attempt to conceal somewhere. Look for it, if you're curious.

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    shad0wfax wrote:
    He should not be detaining you for officer safety once he has seen your CPL (if you were furtively concealing it), or else he should have done so before you went CC, with RAS of course.

    I'll have to respectfully disagree on this statement above: "before you went CC", you were open carrying, therefore, no need at all for a permit of any kind. to say that if he was going to check CPL, he should have done it when you were OCing is way off base

    IANAL, YMMV


    EDIT: o.k., it's early & I misread the original post....now that I've got my comprehension on, I still think that under the above scenario, he would have no RAS even under the guise of "officer safety" to detain. either way you look at it, "before you went cc" is going to be OC, and by now, I think we know how the courts ruled regarding "warranting alarm" and legally open carrying.

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    5jeffro7 wrote:
    EDIT: o.k., it's early & I misread the original post....now that I've got my comprehension on, I still think that under the above scenario, he would have no RAS even under the guise of "officer safety" to detain. either way you look at it, "before you went cc" is going to be OC, and by now, I think we know how the courts ruled regarding "warranting alarm" and legally open carrying.
    That's what I was getting at, but I was a little unclear in the way I phrased it. I didn't mean check the CPL while he was OC, I meant detain for Officer Safety while he was OC, meaning he should have detained for that (with RAS of something else) if he was planning to detain at all. The mere act of "going CC" (so long as not furtive) in front of the officer should not be grounds to check a CPL, although it may indeed be grounds to follow at a distance and observe behavior for intent or commission of a crime...

    As far as warranting alarm, as long as you're not referring to State vs Casad, we're OK. Casad is unpublished and thus useless to us in court.Wn.2d 793. 92 P.3d 228 (2004)

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    What kind of Dog?

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    As soon as you cover the LEO can demand your CPL as you are now required to have it in your immediate possession.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    I agree with joerocket.

    Law is not extremely clear on when an officer can demand to see a CPL, but is pretty clear that you need to show it if requested. As to "display" or actually hand it over I think some hairs are being split. It would be interesting to see the response someone got going the "you can look at it but not hold it" route.

    While OC he has nothing to suspect a crime, once he knows you to be carrying concealed, courts would probably hold that he has RAS since concealed carry is illegal without the CPL. That would be what he was investigating. Sure he knows you have a gun from OC portion, but he doesn't know you have a CPL. While he may not have RAS for a stop and frisk while OC, I think going from OC to CC right in front of him would provide the needed RAS to stop you if he was so inclined to investigate.

    Since he knows you have a gun, and he now has RAS, he would probably be ok with disarming for safety during what is now a Terry stop.

    Granted you are not doing anything illegal and you are the same threat before and after switching to CC, the difference is his knowing you are CC give him a "potential" crime to investigate. He doesn't have to wait until an actual crime occurs.



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    you oc then you talk to the cop and you cover it up, makes it look like your hiding something. going to get asked

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    joeroket wrote:
    As soon as you cover the LEO can demand your CPL as you are now required to have it in your immediate possession.
    Yup. Its as easy as that. When you are CC and asked by an LEO to produce your CHL, you are required to do so, regardless of what happened 5 minutes or 5 seconds ago.

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    joeroket wrote:
    As soon as you cover the LEO can demand your CPL as you are now required to have it in your immediate possession.
    Here's your answer Defender.

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    Vandal wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    As soon as you cover the LEO can demand your CPL as you are now required to have it in your immediate possession.
    Here's your answer Defender.

    its so short and sweet!

    and the winner is.. joeroket!

    i didnt really accept (it didnt click!) the answer, untill vandal quoted it.

    you gotta have a CPL for CC, the cop knows your CC, you gotta display when the LEO demand!

    thanks guys, ill go back to thinkin up some more stuff.

    p.s. but thats all he gets! no other ID, no pat down, there is no RAS for further contact!

    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Tawnos wrote:
    i learned to type on a machine with a handle on top of the carriage, then came electricity. the new machines had a key that said return, on it.

    ive only recently started actually typing things on this computor writer thingy, its got no handle, its got no return key.

    id always wondered how to break up my writings when i make a post.

    your wall o text made me think real hard! then, then i thought real hard, cause i understud that, what i was doing was wrong.

    so now, as you can see i found that the enter key, acts like a return key would work, if it said return on it!

    thanks for your helping to make me try hard, to be better, and especially, gooder! bob
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    StatTheCat wrote:
    What kind of Dog?
    shes a 5yr old afgan/cocker with brown flowing fur. shes dainty and pretty and loving, but shes not a wimp. whe loves kids, and cats and birds. she loves to visit all the folks around here, and she will fight to protect anybody thats her friend. her name "was", COCO. i lost her 20 yrs ago. im miss her, so much.(tears)
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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