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Thread: Genesee Valley Mall

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    Hello everyone, newbie here. Been watching the site for weeks and decided to post for the first time. Anyway, sent an email to the Genesee Valley Mall asking about their "NO WEAPONS" policy and if it applied to CPL holders. Their reply was "...Genesee Valley Center is private property and at no time are weapons of any kind permitted." I hadn't seen anything said before about Genesee Valley, so I decided to post what I had learned.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Outdoorsman wrote:
    Hello everyone, newbie here. Been watching the site for weeks and decided to post for the first time. Anyway, sent an email to the Genesee Valley Mall asking about their "NO WEAPONS" policy and if it applied to CPL holders. Their reply was "...Genesee Valley Center is private property and at no time are weapons of any kind permitted." I hadn't seen anything said before about Genesee Valley, so I decided to post what I had learned.
    Welcome to OCDO! Is this Policy conspicuously posted in LARGE LETTERS at the MALL ENTRANCES?
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, I don't know if it's posted. I saw it on their website.

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Welcome!

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Yes, posted on their website: http://www.geneseemall.com/info/behaviorpolicy.cfm

    Was a little difficult to find it though...

    They also have a really neat idea: @5 Family Friendly Hours

    http://www.geneseemall.com/go/Poolb....LID=2129961759

    Two options are given to youth who cannot prove they are 18 or over, or are under the supervision and control of a parent or guardian.
    They will either be escorted to a "safe area" to wait for a ride or directed to return home the way they came. The "safe area" will be located in the training room next to the center's security office.

    This sounds just like an "illegal detention" to me. I wonder how much money one could make on this "idiot idea"???
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Since the mall is private property, can they not restrict the activity of anyone they choose?
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
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    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    Since the mall is private property, can they not restrict the activity of anyone they choose?
    Yep
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    Yes, posted on their website: http://www.geneseemall.com/info/behaviorpolicy.cfm

    Was a little difficult to find it though...

    They also have a really neat idea: @5 Family Friendly Hours

    http://www.geneseemall.com/go/Poolb....LID=2129961759

    Two options are given to youth who cannot prove they are 18 or over, or are under the supervision and control of a parent or guardian.
    They will either be escorted to a "safe area" to wait for a ride or directed to return home the way they came. The "safe area" will be located in the training room next to the center's security office.

    This sounds just like an "illegal detention" to me. I wonder how much money one could make on this "idiot idea"???

    They've been doing this for probably over 5 years. The mall was turning into a high crime area and this was there way of fighting back against it. They also hired about 50 security gaurds and they have about half of them working at all times (I haven't been there in a few years so this might have changed, but last time I was there there was literally groups of 5-10 security gaurds walking around every section of the mall).

    I think the policy is awesome. Used to see police cars up there frequently arresting the riff raff and now I think this has been all but taken care of.

    I wouldn't think this was illegal detention. They aren't forced to stay in one area, they can stay there and wait for a ride or they can leave. Its private property so the mall can say they are bound to one area while inside their building, I would think. It WOULD be an illegal detention if the mall said they had to stay inside the building and they had to stay in one area... But as long as the mall allows them to leave at will I can't see it being illegal.

    The one thing I could see a possibility for is discrimination charges. How do the security guards go after what they deem "youngsters"? If several security guards go after the same person (who's over 18) I could see a discrimination charge being possible.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    The solution isforthe parents to keep the kids at home in the closet under the stairs where they belong.

    :P:quirky

    Bronson


    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Bronson wrote:
    The solution isforthe parents to keep the kids at home in the closet under the stairs where they belong.

    :P:quirky

    Bronson

    Yes, but in Flint your assuming the kids know who their parents are and vice versa.

    Note: This isn't racism, this is fact. My mom was a teacher in one of the worst areas in Flint.. The stories I could tell you.. :shock:

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    I go to GVM and have looked for the signs. There are NO Door signs at least last month when I looked. THere are also no signs on the stors (sears and penneys where my wife likes to shop) THere is one obscure area where there is a mall rule sighn that mentions dangerous weapons but it is well inside the mall as of maybe a month ago. what do you guys think?

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    I have seen signs AFTER you enter the building, on a wall. Somewhat large white signs with small black lettering. Firearms are specifically mentioned, and prohibited. I won't shop there. Freedom thieves...
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

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    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    i am black on white color blind

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    steve wrote:
    i am black on white color blind
    LOL!
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    I shop at GVM frequently with my teenagers, I am ALWAYS OC'ing, I have never been stopped or asked about it, The law clearly states that they can stop you from carrying, but it must be clearly posted over the entrance doors, which it is not, I would respect their policy by not shopping there, but since I have never had an instance I will continue to shop, I can always change my mind though, The only thing they can do is ask you to leave, which I would do peacefully with my teenagers, and my money.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    packinheatmiinoh wrote:
    I shop at GVM frequently with my teenagers, I am ALWAYS OC'ing, I have never been stopped or asked about it, The law clearly states that they can stop you from carrying, but it must be clearly posted over the entrance doors, which it is not, I would respect their policy by not shopping there, but since I have never had an instance I will continue to shop, I can always change my mind though, The only thing they can do is ask you to leave, which I would do peacefully with my teenagers, and my money.
    The law clearly states that if the premises are "An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals", then CC is prohibited. (See MCL 28.425o)
    This section makes it "illegal" to carry a concealed pistol. It does not make OC or the possession of a pistol "illegal". If you are CCing and they have met the aforementioned requirement AND the facility is one used for "enetertainment", then you would be violating the law and could be charged with "carrying concealed in a pistol-free zone" whether you were asked to leave or not.

    This does NOT mean that a private property owner who wishes to forbid firearms needs to follow this in order to prohibit firearms, nor would such a sign necessarily prohibit OCing a firearm if you did not see the sign. A sign would function the same as an owner asking you to leave if you are carrying. It would be easier for the owner to enforce the prohibition if the sign was clearly placed over all entrances, but there is no requirement that they must do this. If you did not see the sign, you have not been notified. When you do see the sign, and can easily see the prohibition on the sign, then you must leave or face a charge of trespassing. Also, if you are told to leave because the owner (or owner's agent) claims it's posted, you must likewise leave or face a charge of trespass.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    I stopped at GVM this morning and read their sign inside the door, it does not state no weapons on that sign, although the website has it, the sign on premises does not.HMMM

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    DrTodd wrote:
    A sign would function the same as an owner asking you to leave if you are carrying. It would be easier for the owner to enforce the prohibition if the sign was clearly placed over all entrances, but there is no requirement that they must do this. If you did not see the sign, you have not been notified. When you do see the sign, and can easily see the prohibition on the sign, then you must leave or face a charge of trespassing. Also, if you are told to leave because the owner (or owner's agent) claims it's posted, you must likewise leave or face a charge of trespass.
    There is currently no legal precedent to a sign carrying the weight of legal notice for trespass. We just don't know if it has any bearing in a courtroom.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    DrTodd wrote:
    A sign would function the same as an owner asking you to leave if you are carrying. It would be easier for the owner to enforce the prohibition if the sign was clearly placed over all entrances, but there is no requirement that they must do this. If you did not see the sign, you have not been notified. When you do see the sign, and can easily see the prohibition on the sign, then you must leave or face a charge of trespassing. Also, if you are told to leave because the owner (or owner's agent) claims it's posted, you must likewise leave or face a charge of trespass.
    There is currently no legal precedent to a sign carrying the weight of legal notice for trespass. We just don't know if it has any bearing in a courtroom.
    My experience is that LEOS are loathe to enforce a sign as official notice in this regard because, as one can logically deduce, not reading it absolves one of the notification necessary for trespass (unimproved land is different and is covered under "recreational trespass" http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?m...L-TRESPASS-731)

    However, if asked to leave, one should. Otherwise, you could be so charged.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    packinheatmiinoh wrote:
    I stopped at GVM this morning and read their sign inside the door, it does not state no weapons on that sign, although the website has it, the sign on premises does not.HMMM
    Odd. I specifically stopped shopping there because the sign I saw said "no firearms allowed". I wonder if they've changed their policy...?
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    DrTodd wrote:
    packinheatmiinoh wrote:
    I shop at GVM frequently with my teenagers, I am ALWAYS OC'ing, I have never been stopped or asked about it, The law clearly states that they can stop you from carrying, but it must be clearly posted over the entrance doors, which it is not, I would respect their policy by not shopping there, but since I have never had an instance I will continue to shop, I can always change my mind though, The only thing they can do is ask you to leave, which I would do peacefully with my teenagers, and my money.
    The law clearly states that if the premises are "An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals", then CC is prohibited. (See MCL 28.425o)
    This section makes it "illegal" to carry a concealed pistol. It does not make OC or the possession of a pistol "illegal". If you are CCing and they have met the aforementioned requirement AND the facility is one used for "enetertainment", then you would be violating the law and could be charged with "carrying concealed in a pistol-free zone" whether you were asked to leave or not.

    This does NOT mean that a private property owner who wishes to forbid firearms needs to follow this in order to prohibit firearms, nor would such a sign necessarily prohibit OCing a firearm if you did not see the sign. A sign would function the same as an owner asking you to leave if you are carrying. It would be easier for the owner to enforce the prohibition if the sign was clearly placed over all entrances, but there is no requirement that they must do this. If you did not see the sign, you have not been notified. When you do see the sign, and can easily see the prohibition on the sign, then you must leave or face a charge of trespassing. Also, if you are told to leave because the owner (or owner's agent) claims it's posted, you must likewise leave or face a charge of trespass.
    Does GVM qualify as an "entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2500...?" I really doubt this applies to GVM. I don't believe you could stretch the definition of "entertainment" and make it apply to shopping. Additionally, I don't believe the mall seats anywhere near that many people. If both could be said to be true then I am in big trouble when I go to my local grocery store...

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    David in MI wrote:
    DrTodd wrote:
    packinheatmiinoh wrote:
    I shop at GVM frequently with my teenagers, I am ALWAYS OC'ing, I have never been stopped or asked about it, The law clearly states that they can stop you from carrying, but it must be clearly posted over the entrance doors, which it is not, I would respect their policy by not shopping there, but since I have never had an instance I will continue to shop, I can always change my mind though, The only thing they can do is ask you to leave, which I would do peacefully with my teenagers, and my money.
    The law clearly states that if the premises are "An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals", then CC is prohibited. (See MCL 28.425o)
    This section makes it "illegal" to carry a concealed pistol. It does not make OC or the possession of a pistol "illegal". If you are CCing and they have met the aforementioned requirement AND the facility is one used for "enetertainment", then you would be violating the law and could be charged with "carrying concealed in a pistol-free zone" whether you were asked to leave or not.

    This does NOT mean that a private property owner who wishes to forbid firearms needs to follow this in order to prohibit firearms, nor would such a sign necessarily prohibit OCing a firearm if you did not see the sign. A sign would function the same as an owner asking you to leave if you are carrying. It would be easier for the owner to enforce the prohibition if the sign was clearly placed over all entrances, but there is no requirement that they must do this. If you did not see the sign, you have not been notified. When you do see the sign, and can easily see the prohibition on the sign, then you must leave or face a charge of trespassing. Also, if you are told to leave because the owner (or owner's agent) claims it's posted, you must likewise leave or face a charge of trespass.
    Does GVM qualify as an "entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2500...?" I really doubt this applies to GVM. I don't believe you could stretch the definition of "entertainment" and make it apply to shopping. Additionally, I don't believe the mall seats anywhere near that many people. If both could be said to be true then I am in big trouble when I go to my local grocery store...
    David, I thinkthe point DrTodd is trying to get across is that entertainment facilities, by statue, must be "clearly posted" not other private properties such as GVM.

    Private properties, other than entertainment facilities,are not required by law to post "no firearms" signs in order for them to ask you to leave the premises.

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    David, I thinkthe point DrTodd is trying to get across is that entertainment facilities, by statue, must be "clearly posted" not other private properties such as GVM.

    Private properties, other than entertainment facilities,are not required by law to post "no firearms" signs in order for them to ask you to leave the premises.
    That makes sense. See what happens when you skim a post?

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    I wonder if my Glock/Nokia cellphone would be banned at GVM?
    eta: the safety release is...911 :celebrate



  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    WARCHILD wrote:
    I wonder if my Glock/Nokia cellphone would be banned at GVM?
    eta: the safety release is...911 :celebrate


    Nice... "What firearm, officer... it's a phone!" Perhaps if it recorded "Voice notes" I could have a "triple use" option when dealing with the local LEOS.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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