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Thread: Virginia Tech President on Two Students Killed

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    Regular Member Virginiaplanter's Avatar
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    I don't know if this has been posted yet.


    By MG News

    Published: August 27, 2009
    August 27, 2009

    To the University Community,

    It is with great sorrow that I write to you about an off-campus tragedy involving Virginia Tech students. The Montgomery County Sheriff has confirmed that two Virginia Tech students were the victims of a homicide sometime last night. They were found early this morning by a passerby near the Caldwell Fields area of northern Montgomery County, a popular day use area within the Jefferson Forest, about 12-15 miles from campus. Both were victims of gunshot wounds.

    The Montgomery County Sheriff has notified families and subsequently announced the victims as David Metzler, 19, a sophomore in industrial and systems engineering from Lynchburg and Heidi Childs, 18, a sophomore in biochemistry from Forest, Virginia. The sheriff’s office continues its investigation and search for a suspect. Any who feels that they might have knowledge related to this should contact the sheriff at 540-382-2951.
    The dean of student’s office will assist the families where appropriate. We have no knowledge at this time of memorials or a memorial services, but will post information once approved by the families on the university website.

    Trauma like this is deeply painful to us all. Once again, this community is visited by senseless violence and tragedy upon aspiring young minds from our campus. I know that many of you likely have complex feelings about now. How can this happen in this area, at this time, to this community? I urge you to counsel your colleagues and fellow students and to seek help if at all necessary. Individuals or groups with special needs are encouraged to contact the Cook Counseling Center at 231-6557.

    We extend our deepest sympathies and condolences to the families and will assist in any way possible. No amount of words can counteract their grief, but know that the university administration and everyone within this community intensely feels this pain.
    Very sincerely yours,

    Charles W. Steger

    http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/ne...killed/288744/







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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    IT is a shame that these two young adults had not taken the opportunity to provide a means of self defense while they were off campus and in a location where they could lawfully bear arms.

    All we know from the article is that they were victims of gunshots. Nothing to indicate that they might, or might not, have had an opportunity to prevent themselves frombeing shot. As such, I am again reminded that merely possessing a handgun is no magic talisman that will ward off evil.
    Once again, [s]this communityis visited by senseless violence and tragedy upon aspiring young minds from our campus[/s] our policy of not allowing students who are legally able to provide the means for their own protection have been cut down by our senseless policy. I know that many of you likely have complex feelings about now about how stupid our policies are, but we are ner going to change them. [s]How can this happen in this area, at this time, to this community[/s] If we really cared about our students we would get rid of our stupid policy, but it ought to be obvious by now is it not clear we do not care one whit? I urge you to counsel your colleagues and fellow students and to seek help if at all necessary. Individuals or groups with special needs are encouraged to contact the [s]Cook Counseling Center at 231-6557[/s] nearest handgun trainer and learn the most effective means of defending yourself and those you are about.

    There. Fixed it for you, Mr. Charles W. Steger.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    I posted this earlier under the "why carry in a national forest?" thread:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/30620.html

    I seriously wish Tech would just change its stupid policy with all the recent violence the past couple of years. Although this incident occurred off campus, something similar could happen ON campus, as it has in the past.

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    Obviously it's hard to keep up with newsabout every College in the Country, but it seems Va Tech has more of these types of stories then I any other college. Every year there seems to be a couple of students who are murder victims.





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    "IT is a shame that these two young adults had not taken the opportunity to provide a means of self defense while they were off campus and in a location where they could lawfully bear arms."

    'Fraid not, Skidmark. Unfortunately, they were found in a day use area of the Jefferson National Forest. They weren't old enough to obtain a CHP. And the following VAC section would have made their carry unlawful:
    4VAC15-40-60. Hunting with dogs or possession of weapons[/b] in certain locations during closed season. (One of these certain locations in National Forest lands)
    G.. The provisions of this section shall not prohibit the possession, transport and use of loaded firearms by employees of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries while engaged in the performance of their authorized and official duties, nor shall it prohibit[/b] possession and transport of loaded concealed handguns where the individual possesses a concealed handgun permit[/b] as defined in § 18.2-308 of the Code of
    Virginia

    Since only concealed handguns are exempted, and they couldn't conceal, they would have not been lawful to carry there. Not that I would blame them for doing so...

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    Wait, what does the Virginia Administrative Code have to do with a National Forest?

    ~ Boyd

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    johnfenter wrote:
    "IT is a shame that these two young adults had not taken the opportunity to provide a means of self defense while they were off campus and in a location where they could lawfully bear arms."

    'Fraid not, Skidmark. Unfortunately, they were found in a day use area of the Jefferson National Forest. They weren't old enough to obtain a CHP. And the following VAC section would have made their carry unlawful:
    4VAC15-40-60. Hunting with dogs or possession of weapons[/b] in certain locations during closed season. (One of these certain locations in National Forest lands)
    G.. The provisions of this section shall not prohibit the possession, transport and use of loaded firearms by employees of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries while engaged in the performance of their authorized and official duties, nor shall it prohibit[/b] possession and transport of loaded concealed handguns where the individual possesses a concealed handgun permit[/b] as defined in § 18.2-308 of the Code of
    Virginia

    Since only concealed handguns are exempted, and they couldn't conceal, they would have not been lawful to carry there. Not that I would blame them for doing so...
    If you look at the article, you will note that they were 18 and 19 respectively. As such, carying concealed was not available to them. However, National Forest regs allow them to carry openly - and especially so in a day use area where the prospect of hunting is eliminated from consideration.

    The problem I was discussing is that Va Tech and it's ploicies "brainwashes" it's students into thinking that any connection to a firearm is bad, evil, counterproductive, uncivilized and unsafe.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    skidmark wrote:
    The problem I was discussing is that Va Tech and it's policies "brainwashes" it's students into thinking that any connection to a firearm is bad, evil, counterproductive, uncivilized and unsafe.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Of course it's as well not just Va Tech that does this. I am trying to dig up some info on this, but there was someone from our company that went to a business class. It was some where in Fredericksburg put on bya collage. It was about Va hiring and firing policies for business. From what I was told, theyrecommended putting no guns signs up around the work place to every one that attended. Of course our representative told them we would do no such thing as me and several others have the right to carry legally. Talk about liberal ???*^&^*.

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    skidmark wrote:
    johnfenter wrote:
    "IT is a shame that these two young adults had not taken the opportunity to provide a means of self defense while they were off campus and in a location where they could lawfully bear arms."

    'Fraid not, Skidmark. Unfortunately, they were found in a day use area of the Jefferson National Forest. They weren't old enough to obtain a CHP. And the following VAC section would have made their carry unlawful:
    4VAC15-40-60. Hunting with dogs or possession of weapons in certain locations during closed season. (One of these certain locations in National Forest lands)
    G.. The provisions of this section shall not prohibit the possession, transport and use of loaded firearms by employees of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries while engaged in the performance of their authorized and official duties, nor shall it prohibit possession and transport of loaded concealed handguns where the individual possesses a concealed handgun permit as defined in § 18.2-308 of the Code of
    Virginia

    Since only concealed handguns are exempted, and they couldn't conceal, they would have not been lawful to carry there. Not that I would blame them for doing so...
    If you look at the article, you will note that they were 18 and 19 respectively. As such, carying concealed was not available to them. However, National Forest regs allow them to carry openly - and especially so in a day use area where the prospect of hunting is eliminated from consideration.

    The problem I was discussing is that Va Tech and it's ploicies "brainwashes" it's students into thinking that any connection to a firearm is bad, evil, counterproductive, uncivilized and unsafe.


    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Not this student. I had surgery 3 weeks ago and can't carry like normal (can't wear a belt, much less a belt with a gun) but I've gotten good at the backpack carry, the seat of the truck carry and the "bring a friend who carries" carry.

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    skidmark wrote:
    johnfenter wrote:
    "IT is a shame that these two young adults had not taken the opportunity to provide a means of self defense while they were off campus and in a location where they could lawfully bear arms."

    'Fraid not, Skidmark. Unfortunately, they were found in a day use area of the Jefferson National Forest. They weren't old enough to obtain a CHP. And the following VAC section would have made their carry unlawful:
    4VAC15-40-60. Hunting with dogs or possession of weapons in certain locations during closed season. (One of these certain locations in National Forest lands)
    G.. The provisions of this section shall not prohibit the possession, transport and use of loaded firearms by employees of the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries while engaged in the performance of their authorized and official duties, nor shall it prohibit possession and transport of loaded concealed handguns where the individual possesses a concealed handgun permit as defined in § 18.2-308 of the Code of
    Virginia

    Since only concealed handguns are exempted, and they couldn't conceal, they would have not been lawful to carry there. Not that I would blame them for doing so...
    If you look at the article, you will note that they were 18 and 19 respectively. As such, carying concealed was not available to them. However, National Forest regs allow them to carry openly - and especially so in a day use area where the prospect of hunting is eliminated from consideration.

    The problem I was discussing is that Va Tech and it's ploicies "brainwashes" it's students into thinking that any connection to a firearm is bad, evil, counterproductive, uncivilized and unsafe.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    are you saying that I can open carry my handgun in the Jefferson National Forest without a CHP, without a Hunting License, etc.? I thought the regs stated it must be concealed with CHP.

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    nova wrote:
    are you saying that I can open carry my handgun in the Jefferson National Forest without a CHP, without a Hunting License, etc.? I thought the regs stated it must be concealed with CHP.
    The regs for Virginia state parks require CHP and concealed handgun. The regs for National Forests are different.

    ~ Boyd

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    TexasNative wrote:
    nova wrote:
    are you saying that I can open carry my handgun in the Jefferson National Forest without a CHP, without a Hunting License, etc.? I thought the regs stated it must be concealed with CHP.
    The regs for Virginia state parks require CHP and concealed handgun. The regs for National Forests are different.

    ~ Boyd
    I thought the new law that is to take effect in January(?) stated the federal law will mirror state law for state parks, which would mean CC only in VA.

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    I thought the new law that is to take effect in January(?) stated the federal law will mirror state law for state parks, which would mean CC only in VA.
    We're getting several things confused.

    State Parks: Only CC with CHP

    National Parks:
    (Jan 2009) Same as state parks where park is located (CC only) (the rule change which was canceled by judicial injunction)
    (Now) No loaded guns.
    (Feb 2010) Same as state where park is located (OC or CC with permit, in Virginia)

    National Forests: OC and CC with permit allowed (I've heard this varies by location, but haven't heard of any National Forest where carry is prohibited)

    Now, I've taken a few shortcuts here, because there are a lot of things that can or should be considered, such as the opinion from the Virginia AG regarding OC in state parks. Also, I haven't personally laid eyes on governing US Code or federal regulation on National Forests, so that part is a little hazy for me, and I'd be happy to be corrected with citations.

    ~ Boyd

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    Ugh. I think this is most certainly a case in which direct code citations are in order, because some of what has been represented here is flat wrong.

    Starting with National Parks: 110th Congress (2009) HR 627 Section 512 "Protecting Americans from Violent Crime"



    SEC. 512. PROTECTING AMERICANS FROM VIOLENT CRIME.


    Congressional Findings- Congress finds the following:


    (1) The Second Amendment to the Constitution provides that ‘the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed’.

    (2) Section 2.4(a)(1) of title 36, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that ‘except as otherwise provided in this section and parts 7 (special regulations) and 13 (Alaska regulations), the following are prohibited: (i) Possessing a weapon, trap or net (ii) Carrying a weapon, trap or net (iii) Using a weapon, trap or net’.


    (3) Section 27.42 of title 50, Code of Federal Regulations, provides that, except in special circumstances, citizens of the United States may not ‘possess, use, or transport firearms on national wildlife refuges’ of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.
    (4) The regulations described in paragraphs (2) and (3) prevent individuals complying with Federal and State laws from exercising the second amendment rights of the individuals while at units of--

    (A) the National Park System; and

    (B) the National Wildlife Refuge System.

    (5) The existence of different laws relating to the transportation and possession of firearms at different units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System entrapped law-abiding gun owners while at units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System.


    (6) Although the Bush administration issued new regulations relating to the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens in units of the National Park System and National Wildlife Refuge System that went into effect on January 9, 2009--

    (B) the new regulations--

    (7) Congress needs to weigh in on the new regulations to ensure that unelected bureaucrats and judges cannot again override the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens on 83,600,000 acres of National Park System land and 90,790,000 acres of land under the jurisdiction of the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.

    (8) The Federal laws should make it clear that the second amendment rights of an individual at a unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System should not be infringed.

    (b) Protecting the Right of Individuals To Bear arms in Units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System- The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--

    (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and

    (2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.


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    For State Parks Only (if someone can find a better source please post it):

    from: http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/state_parks/hunting.shtml

    Virginia State Parks Hunting Rules

    • Hunting and camping is permitted only in designated areas.
    • Virginia game laws apply in all designated hunting areas.
    • Hunting is prohibited within 100 yards of all state park buildings and roads.
    • Loaded firearms are prohibited except in designated hunting areas. (Those with a valid concealed weapons permit may carry loaded firearms.)
    • Firearms may be carried through designated non-hunting areas of specific state parks to gain access to public hunting areas. Firearms should remain unloaded, cased and secured in a vehicle at all other times. (Those with a valid concealed weapons permit may carry loaded firearms.)
    • Lottery and reservation hunts require proof of completion of a hunter safety course.
    • State law requires hunters to wear blaze orange. The minimum required by law is a blaze orange cap or vest; most managed hunts at state parks require a blaze orange vest, at a minimum, which is more than required by state regulations.

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    Jmelvin:

    Of course, the original question was regarding National Forests, which neither of your citations address. I can link to regulations for individual National Forests, but I don't know where the overall governing code or regulation is located.

    Oh, and in answer to your question on a better source on Virginia State Parks, it's contained in 4VAC5-30-200, but as I said, isn't pertinent to the original question.

    hlh:

    National Forests adhering to state law is a popular belief, but, just as an example, you can open carry in National Forests in California, but you sure can't open carry in a state park there.

    Regarding National Parks, there was a brief period from early January to mid February (the exact dates escape me) where carry in National Parks mirrored state parks in the corresponding state, but the judge threw out the rule, and we're back to no carry in NPs until February 2010, when the new law kicks in.

    ~ Boyd

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    Yeah, Boyd, I know my posts so far have not addressed National Forests. I'm having a hard time finding useful, direct info, rather than summaries. Virginia's department of game and inland fisheries website discusses carrying concealed weapons in National Forest, but I'm not finding much regarding open carry, sans license.

    Edited to Add: I think John Fenter provided the regulation and it's state level. I could find nothing within the National Forest manualsthat directly regulated the carrying of firearms by those not employed by the Fed Gov.

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    Yeah, you and I are having the same results in looking for the info.

    ~ Boyd

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    Here is the law for National Forrests.



    Laws Regarding Firearms on National Forest Lands

    First, the primary laws governing possession of firearms and other weapons on National Forest are State Laws. These laws were developed by the states following establishment of our Cooperative Wildlife Management Agreements. Most notable of the state laws concerns controlling firearms on the National Forest are “cased gun laws”.

    Cased Gun Laws: As the name implies, this law requires that all firearms on National Forest be unloaded and kept in a case. Virginia and West Virginia have similar “cased gun laws”. In order to allow hunting, these laws make an exception.

    • It is legal to have loaded firearms on National Forest during the authorized general firearms and muzzle loading gun seasons for bear, deer, grouse, pheasant, quail, rabbit, raccoon, squirrel, turkey, or waterfowl. This exception is very specific and applies only during the period when it is legal to take these listed species and doesn’t include carrying the loaded weapons in a vehicle.
    • Because hunting on Sunday is prohibited, carrying a loaded gun on National Forest is not legal on Sunday even if it is the Sunday in the middle of the general firearms deer season.
    • The second exception to this law allows people with a concealed weapon permit to carry a loaded, concealed, handgun either on their person or in their vehicle while on National Forest. This does not apply if the person is engaged in a primitive weapons season or chase only season.
    • People muzzle loading or bow hunting may carry a concealed weapon as long as they possess a concealed weapon permit.

    Discharging a firearm, crossbow, or bow and arrow in or across a road or within the right-of-way of any road is prohibited by both State and Federal Law.

    Any person convicted of a felony may not legally possess firearms on National Forest.

    Reckless use or handling firearms: It is a violation of both Federal and State law to handle any firearm in a careless and reckless manner or hunt while under the influence of intoxicants or narcotic drugs.

    TARGET SHOOTING - Target shooting is prohibited on the George Washington and Jefferson National Forests by an Order signed in February of 1996. Target shooting on National Forest should be accomplished only at approved



    http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/gwj/general_info/index.shtml



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    Thanks for the link, reb, but that's more of the same of what we've already found.

    First off, it's not the law, it's a descriptive page. Furthermore, it's for two specific National Forests, not for all National Forests. What we're looking for is US Code or something approaching that level of authority that covers all National Forests across the country.

    It may well be that there are no federal laws or regulations which cover NFs, in which case they would appear to depend on state laws, as mentioned on the page you linked. But in some cases, that still doesn't make sense because there are locations where NFs or either more or less restrictive than the surrounding state's laws.

    How are we supposed to deal with carrying in National Forests unless we know the root authority for any restrictions or permissions on firearms there? Ignorance of the law is not supposed to be an excuse, so we need to find out what the actual law is.

    ~ Boyd

    P.S. It's things like this that tend to make be believe that the whole "ignorance is no excuse" principle can be total BS.

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    Thanks. Although, it does provide Forest's follow the particular State laws where the Forest is located. I know it was discussed before and I don't believe a better source of law was provided.

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    That's my point, reb, that's not the law. It's merely an informational web page. For two specific National Forests, to boot.

    ~ Boyd

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    Here are two more links that mention laws concerning guns in National Forests.



    http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...Cite:+18USC922



    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/LawEnf...#CarryFirearm3

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