Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 56

Thread: ex/current Military expline this one to me

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    kent, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    474

    Post imported post

    Why are not all military personal required to carry a gun at all times unless you have a job that is so dangerous to have one say your working as an x-ray tech I dont understand this concept.
    It just seems odd to me and that its not something anyone has discussed yet.
    Only having Mps or if your on a base that dosent have those and they have Base Security done by the DOD how are our military personal taking full advantage of the training they have while on base? It seems a little confusing as to what the concepts are towards this.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    The Real World.
    Posts
    1,705

    Post imported post

    Bustelo5% wrote:
    Why are not all military personal required to carry a gun at all times unless you have a job that is so dangerous to have one say your working as an x-ray tech I dont understand this concept.
    It just seems odd to me and that its not something anyone has discussed yet.
    Only having Mps or if your on a base that dosent have those and they have Base Security done by the DOD how are our military personal taking full advantage of the training they have while on base? It seems a little confusing as to what the concepts are towards this.
    I'm only speaking from my own perception, but there are several reasons military personel only carry weapons in theater. Namely, the military doesn't want it's ASVAB wavers, thugs and trailer trash getting drunk and shooting each other.

    That said, in theater there is still alcohol available, it's just against the rules. Of course shootings are isolated incidents, you almost never hear about them. They do happen of course, but no where near the frequency of citizens stateside. Some base commanders are anti-gun as well. At FT Hood it was a pain in the a$$ because even w/ a CHL you had to register the weapon and keep it in your company arms room. I've heard other bases are much less restrictive.

    I agree with you that personel should have to carry and continuously train, but that's not today's army. We're turning into euroweenies as the days go by.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

  3. #3
    Regular Member hp-hobo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Manchester State Forest, SC
    Posts
    399

    Post imported post

    The reason that most people in the military are not armed most of the time is because their job doesn't require it. Much the same as your optician, plumber or grocery bagger.

    All military members do qualify with an M16 during basic training and then re-qualify on an annual basis. Some qualify on other weapons depending on their specialty or additional duties. Of course some members then go on to carry/use a firearm in the normal course of their duties. Most do not.

    I spent almost 24 years in the USAF as a jet mechanic. But the only time I was armed, and even then only a few times,is when I also acted as a classified courier during deployments, etc with an M9 on my side.
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    376

    Post imported post

    Namely, the military doesn't want it's ASVAB wavers, thugs and trailer trash getting drunk and shooting each other.


    Very True. Joe gets into enough trouble WITHOUT guns on the weekends. Just ask any company commander/1SG what they did on on any givenSat/Sunday morning at 2AM. I would just LOVE to be this guy's commander, long story short, ICE informantworking forone cartelpartners with Army private to kill ANOTHER ICE informant working for the cartels:

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/6568346.html

    Some base commanders are anti-gun as well. At FT Hood it was a pain in the a$$ because even w/ a CHL you had to register the weapon and keep it in your company arms room. I've heard other bases are much less restrictive

    Very True as well. I haven't seen this "less restrictive" base commander. I HAVE seen commanders that require you to keep your weapon in the arms room and register it even if you live off post. At least that that's what the idea was. It isn't like they were going to come search your house.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Walton County, Georgia, ,
    Posts
    475

    Post imported post

    I was only ever armed when it was qualifying time or my job required it. The only time out of my 4 years that I was required to carry a firearm in my daily routine was when I worked as a cop augmentee. They didn't even want us carrying our rifles into the BX because it might scare people. I thought that was the dumbest thing ever. If we're the military shouldn't we be less sensitive to people's feelings? As well most of the people in the BX are retired vets from WW2, Korean, and Vietnam. I don't think they're going to freak out over a soldier with a rifle.

    It would be a big hassle to lug around a battle rifle as a communications technician. If I'm by myself working on a piece of equipment I'd have to either sling it over my shoulder with it falling down as I'm trying to fix the equipment or I'd have to prop it up against something while my back is turned. Sure a pistol would be more practical but that doesn't scream combat soldier.

    Our commanders didn't care so much about firearms, they didn't ask so I didn't volunteer the information.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682

    Post imported post

    It is amazing to consider that basic training doctrine has changed over the course of time. Back when I was in uniform we were issued (take what you were handed - no such thing as "yours" for the duration") clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range, working civil disturbance and rights violation duty, or actually in a combat theater. On all other occassions it was as if our battle weapons did not exist.

    Shufle forward to the current time, where recruits are issued their very own rifle on either day 2 or day 3 and carry it around everywhere, including the latrine and the shower. Of course, they never get their hands on boolits or something to make one end pointy, but that's a different story altogether.

    Once the recruit has been graduated there is another phenomenon that comes into play - the same one that existed back in my day too. That is that the civillian population has a wee tad bit of fear that if soldiers/Marines are allowed to carry weapons around all the time, someone in the chain of command will start wanting to find a reason for using them. (Agreed there is a separate danger of Willie and Joe doing stupid stuff to each other and the countryside if they ever gor their hands on real boolits, but that can be controlled to a significant degree by locking up issue stuff and doing locker and vehicle inspections to see they are not bringing any back from the shops in town.)

    The troops are issued long guns periodically so that someone can wear them out a bit and keep them busy either doing close-order drill or cleaning the bejabbers out of them (ever wonder why bores of barrels on training/garrison arms are worn out without ever being shot?). Other than that they either go for long walks in the woods and play Boy Scout without being allowed to start fires, or walk around picking up cigarette butts until someone can find a war to send them to.

    Seriously, have you ever visited another country (except Isreal*) and seen the troops walking about with battle rifles slung over their shoulders? It can be very worrying to wonder why the .gov of that place feels it is important forarmed troops to patrol the streets. It made me want to get back home rather than stick around and see what happened next.

    [* Isreal getsthree breaks - 1) because they have so many hot women in uniform that having them carry M-16s just makes them hotter; 2) even when they (men as well as women) carry their M-16s the magazine can only be rubberbanded to the weapon - never inserted until ordered to do so; and 3) goven the number of folks who visit Isreal with the intent of killing the inhabitants it just makes sense.]

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,818

    Post imported post

    skidmark wrote:
    Seriously, have you ever visited another country (except Isreal*) and seen the troops walking about with battle rifles slung over their shoulders? It can be very worrying to wonder why the .gov of that place feels it is important forarmed troops to patrol the streets. It made me want to get back home rather than stick around and see what happened next.
    I've seen it in China. That's kind of scary..... You're a foreigner, your in the middle of real China (You know "inland", not in a big city.), and here's a group of soldiers doing drills on the highway. You only speak enough Chinese to get by and they most likely speak no English what so ever......

    It seems that the worse a country's human rights record is, the more likely they'll have soldiers running around. A little shock and awe oughta keep the civies under control.
    R[ƎVO˩]UTION

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Lex malla, lex nulla

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    The Real World.
    Posts
    1,705

    Post imported post

    Brass Magnet wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    Seriously, have you ever visited another country (except Isreal*) and seen the troops walking about with battle rifles slung over their shoulders? It can be very worrying to wonder why the .gov of that place feels it is important forarmed troops to patrol the streets. It made me want to get back home rather than stick around and see what happened next.
    I've seen it in China. That's kind of scary..... You're a foreigner, your in the middle of real China (You know "inland", not in a big city.), and here's a group of soldiers doing drills on the highway. You only speak enough Chinese to get by and they most likely speak no English what so ever......

    It seems that the worse a country's human rights record is, the more likely they'll have soldiers running around. A little shock and awe oughta keep the civies under control.

    I once saw a Philippine National Police officer w/ an M16 the rest w/ just 1911's, but for the most part the "cops" are all private security, (if TSHTF they call the PNP's)and most of them don't have any guns. The ones who do usually have rusty .38's or shotguns.

    I did see police patrolling the HK airport w/ MP5's though.

    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    az, ,
    Posts
    685

    Post imported post

    skidmark - you pretty much nailed it (especially about the cigarette butts) except the latrines are a no gun zone now unless your in country. i dont know why though. for some reason our CO wouldnt let us bring our weapons into the defac either, which was a blessing i thought. im not complaining, the less i have to carry the m249 or 240 the happier i am

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lamma Island, HK
    Posts
    964

    Post imported post

    skidmark wrote:
    It is amazing to consider that basic training doctrine has changed over the course of time. Back when I was in uniform we were issued (take what you were handed - no such thing as "yours" for the duration") clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range, working civil disturbance and rights violation duty, or actually in a combat theater. On all other occassions it was as if our battle weapons did not exist.

    Shufle forward to the current time, where recruits are issued their very own rifle on either day 2 or day 3 and carry it around everywhere, including the latrine and the shower. Of course, they never get their hands on boolits or something to make one end pointy, but that's a different story altogether.

    Once the recruit has been graduated there is another phenomenon that comes into play - the same one that existed back in my day too. That is that the civillian population has a wee tad bit of fear that if soldiers/Marines are allowed to carry weapons around all the time, someone in the chain of command will start wanting to find a reason for using them. (Agreed there is a separate danger of Willie and Joe doing stupid stuff to each other and the countryside if they ever gor their hands on real boolits, but that can be controlled to a significant degree by locking up issue stuff and doing locker and vehicle inspections to see they are not bringing any back from the shops in town.)

    The troops are issued long guns periodically so that someone can wear them out a bit and keep them busy either doing close-order drill or cleaning the bejabbers out of them (ever wonder why bores of barrels on training/garrison arms are worn out without ever being shot?). Other than that they either go for long walks in the woods and play Boy Scout without being allowed to start fires, or walk around picking up cigarette butts until someone can find a war to send them to.

    Seriously, have you ever visited another country (except Isreal*) and seen the troops walking about with battle rifles slung over their shoulders? It can be very worrying to wonder why the .gov of that place feels it is important forarmed troops to patrol the streets. It made me want to get back home rather than stick around and see what happened next.

    [* Isreal getsthree breaks - 1) because they have so many hot women in uniform that having them carry M-16s just makes them hotter; 2) even when they (men as well as women) carry their M-16s the magazine can only be rubberbanded to the weapon - never inserted until ordered to do so; and 3) goven the number of folks who visit Isreal with the intent of killing the inhabitants it just makes sense.]

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    When I was in. . .1997 going through basic at slacking Jackson we only had our weapons when training with them.

  11. #11
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,845

    Post imported post

    I was in a unique situation while in the Coast Guard because it is both a Federal Law Enforcement Agency (14 USC 89) and one of the FIVE Armed Services of the United States (Ask any Coastie for his ID card, it looks the same as everyone else's). They're also on the same pay scale as the other 4 services. I worked in law enforcement and ordnance (cannons machine guns and small arms).

    I only carried on duty. The CG has no jurisdiction off the water, except in very specific circumstances. No need to carry when someone else has jurisdiction.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , Oregon, USA
    Posts
    269

    Post imported post

    I always thought the limited allowance for soldiers being armed out of combat was a part of the United States' deep seated tradition of distrusting standing armies. Try counting how many times a variation of " the military will be subordinate to the civil authority" appears in the Constitution.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Hampton, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    155

    Post imported post

    This is just my observation/opinion. It's half a safety issue and half a numbers issue. When the Army sees the Air Force handling weapons, everyone ducks. Why they send people downrange with barely any weapons handling time or weapons knowledge is beyond me. There is no more "fixed" battle lines, you need to be prepared anywhere you are because sh*t can happen at any time. Also, the numbers. If you have a force of say 500,000 and everyone needs weapons, add the training time/ammo/parts/etc to the cost. Now reduce that number to say 100,000 for the people who "might" fire their weapon. The DoD has been run by bean counters for quite a long time which makes me laugh when I see how much fraud, waste and abuse there still is in the system.

  14. #14
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,845

    Post imported post

    Heartless_Conservative wrote:
    I always thought the limited allowance for soldiers being armed out of combat was a part of the United States' deep seated tradition of distrusting standing armies. Try counting how many times a variation of " the military will be subordinate to the civil authority" appears in the Constitution.
    The
    Posse Comitatus
    Act of 1878




    I don't know much about the veracity of this site, but the info about Posse Comitatus is pretty much the reason that four of the five armed services can't enforce laws on U. S. soil. The Coast Guard is a Federal Law Enforcement agency that enforces federal laws on and near the waters of the U. S.

    This site has a lot of other conspiracy theory stuff, too. If you're into that, have a blast.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    skidmark wrote:
    SNIP Back when I was in uniform we were issued...clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range...
    Spears? You mean, like with flint heads? Wow! all we had was sharpened sticks. And the damned drill instructors made us go get our own, at that.

    Had to sharpen them on a rock and hold them in a fire to harden the point. And you know what the DI said when he found excess carbon on the end of the stick!!


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    kent, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    474

    Post imported post

    I didnt know that there we as many VETS on OCDO go figure and im an ARMY bratt.
    Its something I didnt think about untill now,i was always used to seeing my dad an MP carrying and I had tons of friends who worked at the Armory so I would just go down there and kick it and watch them clean the m16s,**** I really want one now.

    Its an intresting topic and yeah that reminds me of when I visited Japan it was the complete oppisite they didnt carry guns at all I dont think I have ever even met a current japanese combat soldier. Although I have met general Konseki that dick who made everyone wear the ******* Berets yeah I think all the green Berets should kick his ass,its a badge of honor and were not euro weenies. Hummmmmm that makes me think ever noticed how our uniforms are looking more and more EURO??? Intresting thought.

    Yeah the Coast Guard are they reconized as LEOS meaning do they have the same liberty to carry off duty with no restrictions or are they bound like the military and as soon as their uniform is off their civilian?
    How about DOD Security Forces I cannot remember what their actual name is they has those guys at Ft Shafter in Hawaii.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    Bustelo5% wrote:
    Why are not all military personal required to carry a gun at all times unless you have a job that is so dangerous to have one say your working as an x-ray tech I dont understand this concept.
    It just seems odd to me and that its not something anyone has discussed yet.
    Only having Mps or if your on a base that dosent have those and they have Base Security done by the DOD how are our military personal taking full advantage of the training they have while on base? It seems a little confusing as to what the concepts are towards this.
    Because the officers in charge of the troops are always trying to get promoted, and one sure way to not get promoted is to have negligent discharges or troops acting stupid with firearms. The same reason there are so many stupid rules for motorcyclists and bisyclists on military bases, bans on skateboards, etc.

    It's all CYA.

    Am I cynical enough?

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    SNIP Back when I was in uniform we were issued...clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range...
    Spears? You mean, like with flint heads? Wow! all we had was sharpened sticks. And the damned drill instructors made us go get our own, at that.

    Had to sharpen them on a rock and hold them in a fire to harden the point. And you know what the DI said when he found excess carbon on the end of the stick!!

    You actually had fire? Back in the Old Corps no such luxury existed.

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Tomahawk wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    SNIP Back when I was in uniform we were issued...clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range...
    Spears? You mean, like with flint heads? Wow! all we had was sharpened sticks. And the damned drill instructors made us go get our own, at that.

    Had to sharpen them on a rock and hold them in a fire to harden the point. And you know what the DI said when he found excess carbon on the end of the stick!!

    You actually had fire? Back in the Old Corps no such luxury existed.
    OK. You win. I can't top that one.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    SNIP Back when I was in uniform we were issued...clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range...
    Spears? You mean, like with flint heads? Wow! all we had was sharpened sticks. And the damned drill instructors made us go get our own, at that.

    Had to sharpen them on a rock and hold them in a fire to harden the point. And you know what the DI said when he found excess carbon on the end of the stick!!

    You actually had fire? Back in the Old Corps no such luxury existed.
    OK. You win. I can't top that one.
    Ha!

    We messed around with fire, but found that not being able to walk upright we were always getting scorched, so we left those lightening-struck trees alone.

    And you had Drill Instructors? In my Corps drill had not yet been invented. We just had Instructors, who spend all day telling us what to do and how to do it and why we were doing it wrong and that we would never get it right.

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  21. #21
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716

    Post imported post

    Oh, if many of the "soldiers" in my company had weapons, I don't want to think about it.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran ak56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Carnation, Washington, USA
    Posts
    748

    Post imported post

    skidmark wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    SNIP Back when I was in uniform we were issued...clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range...
    Spears? You mean, like with flint heads? Wow! all we had was sharpened sticks. And the damned drill instructors made us go get our own, at that.

    Had to sharpen them on a rock and hold them in a fire to harden the point. And you know what the DI said when he found excess carbon on the end of the stick!!

    You actually had fire? Back in the Old Corps no such luxury existed.
    OK. You win. I can't top that one.
    Ha!

    We messed around with fire, but found that not being able to walk upright we were always getting scorched, so we left those lightening-struck trees alone.

    And you had Drill Instructors? In my Corps drill had not yet been invented. We just had Instructors, who spend all day telling us what to do and how to do it and why we were doing it wrong and that we would never get it right.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Instructors telling you what to do? You had language? They just grunted and pointed at us.
    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law. Union Pacific Rail Co. vs Botsford as quoted in Terry v Ohio.


    Talk to your cats about catnip - before it's too late.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Virginia Beach, ,
    Posts
    204

    Post imported post

    Just goes to show how little has changed in the Corps....

    Semper Fi!

    DocV

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    NavyLT wrote:
    What really lights me up, though, is the fact that I have to give up my Constitutional right to self defense in order to go to work on base or when in uniform off base! How is it that an officer sworn to support and the defend the Constitution cannot carry a privately owned gun for self protection when in service to the government. That really torques me!
    Yes, well, that's why after doing some thinking I didn't want to serve the government anymore.

  25. #25
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716

    Post imported post

    Well, if the government doesn't trust regular civilians, why would it trust those who have volunteered to be soldiers?

    Crazy gubbermints, it wont work.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •