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ex/current Military expline this one to me

Bustelo5%

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Why are not all military personal required to carry a gun at all times unless you have a job that is so dangerous to have one say your working as an x-ray tech I dont understand this concept.
It just seems odd to me and that its not something anyone has discussed yet.
Only having Mps or if your on a base that dosent have those and they have Base Security done by the DOD how are our military personal taking full advantage of the training they have while on base? It seems a little confusing as to what the concepts are towards this.
 

PrayingForWar

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Bustelo5% wrote:
Why are not all military personal required to carry a gun at all times unless you have a job that is so dangerous to have one say your working as an x-ray tech I dont understand this concept.
It just seems odd to me and that its not something anyone has discussed yet.
Only having Mps or if your on a base that dosent have those and they have Base Security done by the DOD how are our military personal taking full advantage of the training they have while on base? It seems a little confusing as to what the concepts are towards this.

I'm only speaking from my own perception, but there are several reasons military personel only carry weapons in theater. Namely, the military doesn't want it's ASVAB wavers, thugs and trailer trash getting drunk and shooting each other.

That said, in theater there is still alcohol available, it's just against the rules. Of course shootings are isolated incidents, you almost never hear about them. They do happen of course, but no where near the frequency of citizens stateside. Some base commanders are anti-gun as well. At FT Hood it was a pain in the a$$ because even w/ a CHL you had to register the weapon and keep it in your company arms room. I've heard other bases are much less restrictive.

I agree with you that personel should have to carry and continuously train, but that's not today's army. We're turning into euroweenies as the days go by.
 

hp-hobo

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The reason that most people in the military are not armed most of the time is because their job doesn't require it. Much the same as your optician, plumber or grocery bagger.

All military members do qualify with an M16 during basic training and then re-qualify on an annual basis. Some qualify on other weapons depending on their specialty or additional duties. Of course some members then go on to carry/use a firearm in the normal course of their duties. Most do not.

I spent almost 24 years in the USAF as a jet mechanic. But the only time I was armed, and even then only a few times,is when I also acted as a classified courier during deployments, etc with an M9 on my side.
 

codename_47

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Namely, the military doesn't want it's ASVAB wavers, thugs and trailer trash getting drunk and shooting each other.


Very True. Joe gets into enough trouble WITHOUT guns on the weekends. Just ask any company commander/1SG what they did on on any givenSat/Sunday morning at 2AM. I would just LOVE to be this guy's commander, long story short, ICE informantworking forone cartelpartners with Army private to kill ANOTHER ICE informant working for the cartels:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6568346.html

Some base commanders are anti-gun as well. At FT Hood it was a pain in the a$$ because even w/ a CHL you had to register the weapon and keep it in your company arms room. I've heard other bases are much less restrictive

Very True as well. I haven't seen this "less restrictive" base commander. I HAVE seen commanders that require you to keep your weapon in the arms room and register it even if you live off post. At least that that's what the idea was. It isn't like they were going to come search your house.
 

N00blet45

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I was only ever armed when it was qualifying time or my job required it. The only time out of my 4 years that I was required to carry a firearm in my daily routine was when I worked as a cop augmentee. They didn't even want us carrying our rifles into the BX because it might scare people. I thought that was the dumbest thing ever. If we're the military shouldn't we be less sensitive to people's feelings? As well most of the people in the BX are retired vets from WW2, Korean, and Vietnam. I don't think they're going to freak out over a soldier with a rifle.

It would be a big hassle to lug around a battle rifle as a communications technician. If I'm by myself working on a piece of equipment I'd have to either sling it over my shoulder with it falling down as I'm trying to fix the equipment or I'd have to prop it up against something while my back is turned. Sure a pistol would be more practical but that doesn't scream combat soldier.

Our commanders didn't care so much about firearms, they didn't ask so I didn't volunteer the information.
 

skidmark

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It is amazing to consider that basic training doctrine has changed over the course of time. Back when I was in uniform we were issued (take what you were handed - no such thing as "yours" for the duration") clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range, working civil disturbance and rights violation duty, or actually in a combat theater. On all other occassions it was as if our battle weapons did not exist.

Shufle forward to the current time, where recruits are issued their very own rifle on either day 2 or day 3 and carry it around everywhere, including the latrine and the shower. Of course, they never get their hands on boolits or something to make one end pointy, but that's a different story altogether.

Once the recruit has been graduated there is another phenomenon that comes into play - the same one that existed back in my day too. That is that the civillian population has a wee tad bit of fear that if soldiers/Marines are allowed to carry weapons around all the time, someone in the chain of command will start wanting to find a reason for using them. (Agreed there is a separate danger of Willie and Joe doing stupid stuff to each other and the countryside if they ever gor their hands on real boolits, but that can be controlled to a significant degree by locking up issue stuff and doing locker and vehicle inspections to see they are not bringing any back from the shops in town.)

The troops are issued long guns periodically so that someone can wear them out a bit and keep them busy either doing close-order drill or cleaning the bejabbers out of them (ever wonder why bores of barrels on training/garrison arms are worn out without ever being shot?). Other than that they either go for long walks in the woods and play Boy Scout without being allowed to start fires, or walk around picking up cigarette butts until someone can find a war to send them to.

Seriously, have you ever visited another country (except Isreal*) and seen the troops walking about with battle rifles slung over their shoulders? It can be very worrying to wonder why the .gov of that place feels it is important forarmed troops to patrol the streets. It made me want to get back home rather than stick around and see what happened next.

[* Isreal getsthree breaks - 1) because they have so many hot women in uniform that having them carry M-16s just makes them hotter; 2) even when they (men as well as women) carry their M-16s the magazine can only be rubberbanded to the weapon - never inserted until ordered to do so; and 3) goven the number of folks who visit Isreal with the intent of killing the inhabitants it just makes sense.]

stay safe.

skidmark
 

Brass Magnet

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skidmark wrote:
Seriously, have you ever visited another country (except Isreal*) and seen the troops walking about with battle rifles slung over their shoulders? It can be very worrying to wonder why the .gov of that place feels it is important forarmed troops to patrol the streets. It made me want to get back home rather than stick around and see what happened next.

I've seen it in China. That's kind of scary..... You're a foreigner, your in the middle of real China (You know "inland", not in a big city.), and here's a group of soldiers doing drills on the highway. You only speak enough Chinese to get by and they most likely speak no English what so ever......

It seems that the worse a country's human rights record is, the more likely they'll have soldiers running around. A little shock and awe oughta keep the civies under control.:uhoh:
 

PrayingForWar

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Brass Magnet wrote:
skidmark wrote:
Seriously, have you ever visited another country (except Isreal*) and seen the troops walking about with battle rifles slung over their shoulders? It can be very worrying to wonder why the .gov of that place feels it is important forarmed troops to patrol the streets. It made me want to get back home rather than stick around and see what happened next.

I've seen it in China. That's kind of scary..... You're a foreigner, your in the middle of real China (You know "inland", not in a big city.), and here's a group of soldiers doing drills on the highway. You only speak enough Chinese to get by and they most likely speak no English what so ever......

It seems that the worse a country's human rights record is, the more likely they'll have soldiers running around. A little shock and awe oughta keep the civies under control.:uhoh:


I once saw a Philippine National Police officer w/ an M16 the rest w/ just 1911's, but for the most part the "cops" are all private security, (if TSHTF they call the PNP's)and most of them don't have any guns. The ones who do usually have rusty .38's or shotguns.

I did see police patrolling the HK airport w/ MP5's though.
 

r6-rider

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skidmark - you pretty much nailed it (especially about the cigarette butts) except the latrines are a no gun zone now unless your in country. i dont know why though. for some reason our CO wouldnt let us bring our weapons into the defac either, which was a blessing i thought. im not complaining, the less i have to carry the m249 or 240 the happier i am
 

Theseus

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skidmark wrote:
It is amazing to consider that basic training doctrine has changed over the course of time. Back when I was in uniform we were issued (take what you were handed - no such thing as "yours" for the duration") clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range, working civil disturbance and rights violation duty, or actually in a combat theater. On all other occassions it was as if our battle weapons did not exist.

Shufle forward to the current time, where recruits are issued their very own rifle on either day 2 or day 3 and carry it around everywhere, including the latrine and the shower. Of course, they never get their hands on boolits or something to make one end pointy, but that's a different story altogether.

Once the recruit has been graduated there is another phenomenon that comes into play - the same one that existed back in my day too. That is that the civillian population has a wee tad bit of fear that if soldiers/Marines are allowed to carry weapons around all the time, someone in the chain of command will start wanting to find a reason for using them. (Agreed there is a separate danger of Willie and Joe doing stupid stuff to each other and the countryside if they ever gor their hands on real boolits, but that can be controlled to a significant degree by locking up issue stuff and doing locker and vehicle inspections to see they are not bringing any back from the shops in town.)

The troops are issued long guns periodically so that someone can wear them out a bit and keep them busy either doing close-order drill or cleaning the bejabbers out of them (ever wonder why bores of barrels on training/garrison arms are worn out without ever being shot?). Other than that they either go for long walks in the woods and play Boy Scout without being allowed to start fires, or walk around picking up cigarette butts until someone can find a war to send them to.

Seriously, have you ever visited another country (except Isreal*) and seen the troops walking about with battle rifles slung over their shoulders? It can be very worrying to wonder why the .gov of that place feels it is important forarmed troops to patrol the streets. It made me want to get back home rather than stick around and see what happened next.

[* Isreal getsthree breaks - 1) because they have so many hot women in uniform that having them carry M-16s just makes them hotter; 2) even when they (men as well as women) carry their M-16s the magazine can only be rubberbanded to the weapon - never inserted until ordered to do so; and 3) goven the number of folks who visit Isreal with the intent of killing the inhabitants it just makes sense.]

stay safe.

skidmark
When I was in. . .1997 going through basic at slacking Jackson we only had our weapons when training with them.
 

MSC 45ACP

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I was in a unique situation while in the Coast Guard because it is both a Federal Law Enforcement Agency (14 USC 89) and one of the FIVE Armed Services of the United States (Ask any Coastie for his ID card, it looks the same as everyone else's). They're also on the same pay scale as the other 4 services. I worked in law enforcement and ordnance (cannons machine guns and small arms).

I only carried on duty. The CG has no jurisdiction off the water, except in very specific circumstances. No need to carry when someone else has jurisdiction.
 

Heartless_Conservative

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, Oregon, USA
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I always thought the limited allowance for soldiers being armed out of combat was a part of the United States' deep seated tradition of distrusting standing armies. Try counting how many times a variation of " the military will be subordinate to the civil authority" appears in the Constitution.
 

Milbars

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This is just my observation/opinion. It's half a safety issue and half a numbers issue. When the Army sees the Air Force handling weapons, everyone ducks. Why they send people downrange with barely any weapons handling time or weapons knowledge is beyond me. There is no more "fixed" battle lines, you need to be prepared anywhere you are because sh*t can happen at any time. Also, the numbers. If you have a force of say 500,000 and everyone needs weapons, add the training time/ammo/parts/etc to the cost. Now reduce that number to say 100,000 for the people who "might" fire their weapon. The DoD has been run by bean counters for quite a long time which makes me laugh when I see how much fraud, waste and abuse there still is in the system.
 

MSC 45ACP

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Heartless_Conservative wrote:
I always thought the limited allowance for soldiers being armed out of combat was a part of the United States' deep seated tradition of distrusting standing armies. Try counting how many times a variation of " the military will be subordinate to the civil authority" appears in the Constitution.

The
Posse Comitatus
[align=center]Act of 1878 [/align]
[align=center][/align]
[align=left]http://www.dojgov.net/posse_comitatus_act.htm[/align]
[align=left][/align]
[align=left]I don't know much about the veracity of this site, but the info about Posse Comitatus is pretty much the reason that four of the five armed services can't enforce laws on U. S. soil. The Coast Guard is a Federal Law Enforcement agency that enforces federal laws on and near the waters of the U. S.
[/align]
[align=left]This site has a lot of other conspiracy theory stuff, too. If you're into that, have a blast. [/align]
 

Citizen

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skidmark wrote:
SNIP Back when I was in uniform we were issued...clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range...
Spears? You mean, like with flint heads? Wow! all we had was sharpened sticks. And the damned drill instructors made us go get our own, at that.

Had to sharpen them on a rock and hold them in a fire to harden the point. And you know what the DI said when he found excess carbon on the end of the stick!!

:D
 

Bustelo5%

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I didnt know that there we as many VETS on OCDO go figure and im an ARMY bratt.
Its something I didnt think about untill now,i was always used to seeing my dad an MP carrying and I had tons of friends who worked at the Armory so I would just go down there and kick it and watch them clean the m16s,shit I really want one now.

Its an intresting topic and yeah that reminds me of when I visited Japan it was the complete oppisite they didnt carry guns at all I dont think I have ever even met a current japanese combat soldier. Although I have met general Konseki that dick who made everyone wear the ******* Berets yeah I think all the green Berets should kick his ass,its a badge of honor and were not euro weenies. Hummmmmm that makes me think ever noticed how our uniforms are looking more and more EURO??? Intresting thought.

Yeah the Coast Guard are they reconized as LEOS meaning do they have the same liberty to carry off duty with no restrictions or are they bound like the military and as soon as their uniform is off their civilian?
How about DOD Security Forces I cannot remember what their actual name is they has those guys at Ft Shafter in Hawaii.
 

Tomahawk

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Bustelo5% wrote:
Why are not all military personal required to carry a gun at all times unless you have a job that is so dangerous to have one say your working as an x-ray tech I dont understand this concept.
It just seems odd to me and that its not something anyone has discussed yet.
Only having Mps or if your on a base that dosent have those and they have Base Security done by the DOD how are our military personal taking full advantage of the training they have while on base? It seems a little confusing as to what the concepts are towards this.

Because the officers in charge of the troops are always trying to get promoted, and one sure way to not get promoted is to have negligent discharges or troops acting stupid with firearms. The same reason there are so many stupid rules for motorcyclists and bisyclists on military bases, bans on skateboards, etc.

It's all CYA.

Am I cynical enough?
 

Tomahawk

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Citizen wrote:
skidmark wrote:
SNIP Back when I was in uniform we were issued...clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range...
Spears? You mean, like with flint heads? Wow! all we had was sharpened sticks. And the damned drill instructors made us go get our own, at that.

Had to sharpen them on a rock and hold them in a fire to harden the point. And you know what the DI said when he found excess carbon on the end of the stick!!

:D
You actually had fire? Back in the Old Corps no such luxury existed.
 

Citizen

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Tomahawk wrote:
Citizen wrote:
skidmark wrote:
SNIP Back when I was in uniform we were issued...clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range...
Spears? You mean, like with flint heads? Wow! all we had was sharpened sticks. And the damned drill instructors made us go get our own, at that.

Had to sharpen them on a rock and hold them in a fire to harden the point. And you know what the DI said when he found excess carbon on the end of the stick!!

:D
You actually had fire? Back in the Old Corps no such luxury existed.
:D OK. You win. I can't top that one. :D:D:D
 

skidmark

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Citizen wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:
Citizen wrote:
skidmark wrote:
SNIP Back when I was in uniform we were issued...clubs and spears only when we were at the dinosaur range...
Spears? You mean, like with flint heads? Wow! all we had was sharpened sticks. And the damned drill instructors made us go get our own, at that.

Had to sharpen them on a rock and hold them in a fire to harden the point. And you know what the DI said when he found excess carbon on the end of the stick!!

:D
You actually had fire? Back in the Old Corps no such luxury existed.
:D OK. You win. I can't top that one. :D:D:D
Ha!

We messed around with fire, but found that not being able to walk upright we were always getting scorched, so we left those lightening-struck trees alone.

And you had Drill Instructors? In my Corps drill had not yet been invented. We just had Instructors, who spend all day telling us what to do and how to do it and why we were doing it wrong and that we would never get it right.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
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