ex/current Military expline this one to me

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Down in Panama we had a guy who decided to play "Quick Draw McGraw" in the mirror in the 4X4 concrete guardhouse out by the ammunition dump. This was with a S&W K-38 Masterpiece and the damn fool musta got all caught up in the Wyaat Earp thingy and PULLED THE TRIGGER.

The FMJ ball slug ricocheted all over that windowless concrete shack but fortunately he was not injured or killed. Of coures he had to account for the spent round and tried to fob it off as an AD, but the followup investigation of course spotted all the chipped places where the ricochet hit - I was told there were 16 of them - and of course the shattered mirror and full-frontal impact crater;and he was immediately stripped of his badge and placed in casual custody pending psychiatric review; which ultimately resulted in his separation "under honorable conditions" on a Medical discharge.

Funny thing was, we all knew he had a screw loose long before this.

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Bustelo5% wrote:

Why are not all military personal required to carry a gun at all times unless you have a job that is so dangerous to have one say your working as an x-ray tech I dont understand this concept.
It just seems odd to me and that its not something anyone has discussed yet.
Only having Mps or if your on a base that dosent have those and they have Base Security done by the DOD how are our military personal taking full advantage of the training they have while on base? It seems a little confusing as to what the concepts are towards this.

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If you had any idea how many problems some branches of the service have with negligent discharges among their military LEO MOS/ratings you'd think twice about having everyone in the service armed.

If you had any idea how poorly some of the people attempting to qualify (especially on the M9) shoot and how unsafe some of them are when they handle their weapons, you'd think twice about having everyone armed.

In 6 years of military service, specifically the last 3 years I spent in a non-combat area (probably one of the safest duty stations in the entire world) I witnessed 1 ND (USAF Security Forces with an M4, 4 rounds...), read reports on 4 other ND's (1 USMC, 2 USAF Security Forces, 1 USN Shore Patrol), was muzzle-swept by military LEO's twice (once USAF SF with M4 and once USN SP with an M9) and was muzzle-swept by a Range Officer once (USMC with an M9). I also personally witnessed an alcoholic (USN, go figure) going into withdrawal so badly he had the shakes on the range. The rounds from his M9 were hitting the floor, the ceiling baffles, AND my target and he was 2 lanes away from me... He was sober at the time, because he was ordered to show up at the range sober, hence he had toxic-withdrawal symptoms and the shakes. (It actually turned my Expert M9 qual into a Sharpshooter qual since I had "fliers" from him on my target... GRRRR)

The only reason none of my personal experiences involved the US Army or USCG is because the base I was stationed at only had USMC, USN and USAF on it.

No thanks, I'd rather not have all of the morons armed until the safety and marksmanship training programs in boot camp become much more robust.

The USN boot camp uses inoperable M16's that are permanently mounted to a bench with a MILES system laser attached to simulate training at the range. They have you fire on a 25m target that simulates 100m as their "firearm training" portion. They have you do a few shots with all of the lights on and no distractions and then they play some lame tape with fake gunshots and explosions while dimming the lights and flashing strobe lights and have you shoot the same course of fire.

You spend literally 1 hour at the "range" with a shooting gallery version of an M16 and that's it for guns in boot camp in the USN. I think you could train a kid better at the Cabela's shooting gallery than the USN trains its sailors in boot camp.

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Shadowfax, you have GOT to be kidding me. That USN "training" system is like training submariners with a baking-soda submarine in a tub full of Mr.Bubble. The USMC is a part of the USN. For god's sakes, if our Marines are being trained like this, don't tell me, i don't wanna know! :banghead:

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Alexcabbie wrote:

Shadowfax, you have GOT to be kidding me. That USN "training" system is like training submariners with a baking-soda submarine in a tub full of Mr.Bubble. The USMC is a part of the USN. For god's sakes, if our Marines are being trained like this, don't tell me, i don't wanna know! :banghead:

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Nah, this is just Never Again Volunteer Yourself boot camp at Great Mistakes, Illinois. Things may have changed since 1998 when I went through Navy boot.

15 years ago or so they had a .22 LR range set up for training at USN boot, but they shut it down due to lead hazards. I'm under the impression they used modified AR-15s with .22 LR conversions to keep costs down but I'm not positive on that. I'm not sure when they quit using real M-16's to train with in Navy boot. Rifle Divisions still carry M1 Garands with lead-filled barrels and cut and welded receivers just about everywhere they go. There are also choir and band divisions that don't have to carry rifles at all. "Triple Threat" divisions have a rifle team (they use fancied up inoperable garands for drills) and a choir and a band. Only the rifle component has to carry rifles. So some recruits go through USN boot camp and never touch anything other than the shooting gallery M16 and others go through carrying 15 lb clubs.

To put your fears to rest, the USMC still uses real firearms (well at least they're center-fire...) in at least one portion of their boot camp as does the US Army. I'm not sure what the USCG or USAF does these days.

No one's using M-14s or M1 Garands in boot for shooting anymore, unfortunately. (Now those would be real rifles.)

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When I went through basic, we carried functional m-16s all day everyday. Of course, we only had live ammo on the range, we quite frequently had blanks.

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When I went through CG boot camp in Sept, 1983, we carried demilled M-1 Garands, too. When a Garand is demilled, they have a steel rod (not lead as previously mentioned) welded into the barrel from the chamber to about 6" short of the muzzle, the bolt is usually welded in place, but not always. The receiver is usually welded into the stock and sometimes the op-rod is also welded. Bottom line: Demilled rifles are usually FUBAR.

When I went back there as a range instructor in 1986, I saw 1,198 recruit rifles that were used by the recruits. There were also another 90 withvarnished"furniture" and well-blued (or possibly well-painted) metal parts, but they were also demilled. Part of our jobs at the armory was to issue these rifles to recruits every Monday.By this time, I haddeveloped an interest in Garands and knew a little about them. Iwas saddened to see that some of them were somewhat rare specimens like International Harverter, Singer, Remington Rand, Winchester, Harrington & Richardson and of course there were also Springfield rifles. They had some scratches and nicks on wood and metal parts, but some were truly beautiful.

Recruits spent a whole week at the range back then. When I went through, we shot the M-16 and 45. When I was teaching, they shot M-16s and 45s and transitioned to the Beretta 9mm while I was there. Also while I was teaching, we tried some different courses to better prepare the "kids" for service in the fleet. They shot the 12 Ga "riot" shotgun, and even the Practical Pistol Course if they qualified on the basic course.

Last I heard, they stopped shooting rifle in CG boot camp and only spend a day (or 2) on pistol and teach them to balance their checkbooks the rest of the week :uhoh:.

Semper Paratus

msc

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In the USMC, you are issued a rifle on the first or second day of bootcamp, and you literally sleep with that f*%#er until the day you graduate. At the range, we spent two whole weeks, the first few days of which were spent learning techniques of marksmanship via dry-firing. How to use a loop sling, steady bone support in various positions, breath control, trigger control, sight picture and alignment, etc. The entire second week is spent live-firing at 200, 300, and 500 yards. The final day is "qual day", and woe to the fool who fails to qualify with his rifle.

On the other hand, we only fam-fired the pistol and machineguns, at first. Later they added more infantry training for all Marines. But the basic rifle stuff remained fairly constant over the years I served.

Of course, in any large group of people, especially young males, you're going to have a few dumbasses. But the whole time I was in Gulf War 91 every Marine I saw was armed to the teeth with live ammo, and I never saw a ND. At one point, when they were sending us up to a forward area, they had us load seven magazines and put even more rds in our cargo pockets. My security squad was also armed with M60E3 machine guns and an M2 Browning .50 cal machine gun. Because of the humid weather we cleaned them constantly and made sure they always worked.

And we were only stinkin' air wingers, not ground combat Marines. But as Marines, we were expected to provide our own airfield security.

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Tomahawk wrote:

In the USMC, you are issued a rifle on the first or second day of bootcamp, and you literally sleep with that f*%#er until the day you graduate. At the range, we spent two whole weeks, the first few days of which were spent learning techniques of marksmanship via dry-firing. How to use a loop sling, steady bone support in various positions, breath control, trigger control, sight picture and alignment, etc. The entire second week is spent live-firing at 200, 300, and 500 yards. The final day is "qual day", and woe to the fool who fails to qualify with his rifle.

On the other hand, we only fam-fired the pistol and machineguns, at first. Later they added more infantry training for all Marines. But the basic rifle stuff remained fairly constant over the years I served.

Of course, in any large group of people, especially young males, you're going to have a few dumbasses. But the whole time I was in Gulf War 91 every Marine I saw was armed to the teeth with live ammo, and I never saw a ND. At one point, when they were sending us up to a forward area, they had us load seven magazines and put even more rds in our cargo pockets. My security squad was also armed with M60E3 machine guns and an M2 Browning .50 cal machine gun. Because of the humid weather we cleaned them constantly and made sure they always worked.

And we were only stinkin' air wingers, not ground combat Marines. But as Marines, we were expected to provide our own airfield security.

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My dad wasa Marine "stinkin air winger" and that couple of weeks shooting a rifle in boot camp stayed with him. I'm no slouch with a rifle, but he can STILL outshoot me with a rifle! He was a Marine aviator for 32 years...He retired in 89 and can STILL outshoot me. I may get some arguement here, but I firmly believe the Marine Corps has the FINEST basic marksmanship program in the WORLD.

"Every Marine is a Rifleman" is what my dad says. I believe he's right.

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Not all Marines are Expert riflemen but they do have a good marksmanship program.

And we were only stinkin' air wingers

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Well that explains a lot of things......................

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So with all that said there needs to be more teaching of all persons who slap on the uniform or they can just take it off I dont care if your a dainty 90 pound female Marine or an 300 pound airman in the Navy. If you can teach a squid to not pull the trigger unless time kill kill kill than some cushion of a chair force computer programer in the Air Force can learn not to ND. It just seems out so called armed services are nothing of the sort and have lot its soul.

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codename_47 wrote:

Some base commanders are anti-gun as well.

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I can't imagine how a person can live in such a state of contradiction. It boggles the mind. I mean seriously, how does one become an anti-gun soldier?

/facepalm

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canadian wrote:

codename_47 wrote:

Some base commanders are anti-gun as well.

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I can't imagine how a person can live in such a state of contradiction. It boggles the mind. I mean seriously, how does one become an anti-gun soldier?

/facepalm

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"Anti-Gun" is NOT "pro-safety" nor is it concern for the public good. "Anti-gun" is "pro-control" not merely of firearms but of everything else. A military installation is the Commanding Officer's little fief, the units are vassals, the unit commanders lieges, and the people below about E-6, peasants. This is not an innaccurate picture, as the medieval "manor" system was primarily military in nature and a modern military installation has evrything but farm fields worked by the peasants. There is, however, K.P. ...........

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I haven't done kp since I started on active duty. Did it when I drilled before basic.

Marine rifle training sounds a lot like Army rifle training.

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"Anti-Gun" is NOT "pro-safety" nor is it concern for the public good. "Anti-gun" is "pro-control" not merely of firearms but of everything else. A military installation is the Commanding Officer's little fief, the units are vassals, the unit commanders lieges, and the people below about E-6, peasants. This is not an innaccurate picture, as the medieval "manor" system was primarily military in nature and a modern military installation has evrything but farm fields worked by the peasants. There is, however, K.P. ...........

Bingo! The commanders aren't anti-gun per se, but they are pro control. Being a commander is ALL about control. Telling people what to do is their game, and the more people they can tell what to do, the more happy they are.

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codename_47 wrote:

The commanders aren't anti-gun per se, but they are pro control. Being a commander is ALL about control. Telling people what to do is their game, and the more people they can tell what to do, the more happy they are.

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Yes, and that goes for more than just military commanders. Politicians and bureaucrats, and even police are pro-control.

This answers the question about how a person can, at the same time, think he's "pro-2nd Ammendment" and at the same time tell you when and where you should carry when out in public, which guns you can and cannot own, etc.

Of course, I'm not talking about hardcore liars like Schumer, I'm talking about people who truly believe they are pro-freedom while failing to see why they are not. Lots of those wearing uniforms.

Thank you guys for that thought, sometimes you read something useful on the net.

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Good job guys I wanted to pose these questions to help others who dont even know any soldiers or have maybe never even been on a base. To me I find it pretty weird seeing that I grew up on bases all over the US and Germany and being around guns at the mp station and then as soon as you get off work or go home your disarmed. Especially at Ft.Shafter since there base is 15 minutes from Kahlihi watch Dog the bounty hunter and you will at least see that town in one episode. Try throwing rocks at a Meth Head even if your a Marine and a Samoan lol.