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Thread: Pittsburgh City Council baits gun owners with proposed G-20 gun ban

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    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09240/993917-100.stm

    Gun rights groups oppose Pittsburgh's proposed G-20 rules
    Friday, August 28, 2009
    By Rich Lord, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

    Gun rights organizations today came out against a proposed city of Pittsburgh ordinance, driven by the G-20 Summit, that would bar anyone from carrying numerous items, including 37 types of firearms, if they appear to be trying to disrupt police crowd dispersal.

    "They may try to call this some other thing, but by every reasonable account, and reasonable review of what they intend to do, this is a gun ban, plain and simple," said Andrew Arulanandam, director of public affairs for the National Rifle Association. "And the fact that they want to leave it open-ended, I think, is the most ominous point."

    He said passage of the ordinance could force the NRA to reconsider bringing its annual meeting, which can draw tens of thousands of members, to Pittsburgh in 2011.

    Pittsburgh City Council today debated the ordinance, which, among other things, says that "no person shall possess" an array of "contraband" guns "for the purpose of defeating lawful removal" by police.

    Having guns "is of genuine concern when you're having a massive protest," as may occur around the summit, said Councilman Bruce Kraus. "I'd actually like to see this work, if it was possible."

    "This has nothing to do with your right to possess any of these" items, said Assistant City Solicitor Yvonne Hilton. "It's the use of the tool to obstruct the passage" of police or the public that would trigger a violation of the ordinance.

    Mr. Arulanandam said the NRA cancelled a meeting in Columbus, Ohio, when it passed gun regulations. "The fact that there's potential for this to be open-ended would jeopardize the NRA annual meeting that's scheduled to be in Pittsburgh in 2011."

    He did not rule out suing to overturn the ordinance, if it's passed.

    Council President Doug Shields has said the legislation may need an expiration date. Council postponed a vote until after a public hearing on G-20-related policing legislation, set for 1:30 p.m. Wednesday.

    The guns referenced in the legislation are already listed in the city code because council passed an "assault weapons ban" in 1993, only to have it nixed by the General Assembly less than a year later.

    Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of OpenCarry.org, which promotes the right to openly bear arms, said the inclusion of a gun list in the legislation is "nonsensical." Some are Korean War-era weapons, he said, and if police tell you to move along, it doesn't matter what you're carrying.

    "Assuming the order to disperse is lawful," he said, "well, then, it doesn't matter if they're carrying a fishing pole. They're still [potentially] guilty of failing to disperse."

    He said he believes the city is trying to "bait" people into bringing rifles to G-20 protests, but that his group has no plans to encourage people to bring any weapons near the David L. Lawrence Convention Center during the summit.

    Rich Lord can be reached at rlord@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1542.
    First published on August 28, 2009 at 2:52 pm


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    Mike wrote:
    Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of OpenCarry.org, which promotes the right to openly bear arms, said the inclusion of a gun list in the legislation is "nonsensical." Some are Korean War-era weapons, he said, and if police tell you to move along, it doesn't matter what you're carrying.

    "Assuming the order to disperse is lawful," he said, "well, then, it doesn't matter if they're carrying a fishing pole. They're still [potentially] guilty of failing to disperse."

    He said he believes the city is trying to "bait" people into bringing rifles to G-20 protests, but that his group has no plans to encourage people to bring any weapons near the David L. Lawrence Convention Center during the summit.

    Rich Lord can be reached at rlord@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1542.
    First published on August 28, 2009 at 2:52 pm
    Bring rifles with scopes on them. Bring shotguns. Bring handguns in holsters. Go about your business in downtown Pittsburg on 24-25 September.. Be ready for twitter updates. It is your right.

    Original posting:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/28521.html

    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    I fail to understand the point of this? Mike nailed it, but it could be elaborated upon.

    If the cops ask me to disperse, and I have a gun, am I automatically breaking a law? If their request is bogus and unlawful?

    It looks like a way to target people who know their rights, and make sure only the willing sheeple will ever peaceably assemble.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Isn't Pittsburgh pre-empted?

    I was under the impression that only Philadelphia could make ordinances.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Isn't Pittsburgh pre-empted?

    I was under the impression that only Philadelphia could make ordinances.
    Anyplace can "make ordinances." They are all, including Philadelphia, preempted.

    Ken

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    Me in Seattle.....I post this everywhere ,this is where we all need to get to.What are they going to do if 10's of thousands show bearing arms....?

    Wow You folks back there have a battle .I have a daughter living in New York so I check on things from time to time.Here in Wa.State Open carry has become almost a non issue.I have open carried here for over a year.I OC into banks,at the Starbucks,Yesterday I walked right up to a county sheriff to complain about some gangbangers in our neighborhood.All he said when he saw my weapon "hell i'd carryto if I lived here" Here is a pick taken of me at he Tea party rally april 15th.in down town Seattle.I use it to show others that most cops don't care .Here in Wa. you don't need any license to open carry.You only have to have a permit to conceal.We are a shall issue state so if you ask they have to give you one.No reason required.





    I carry an EAA Witness .45 and we are allowed to carry locked and loaded.Notice the police NOT bothering me.This is the way it should be everywhere.


    Attached Image (viewed 17 times):



    Also see the following video Open carry event I had at my apts.Covered by local news...Lets get this started everywhere.http://www.king5.com/video/news-index.html?nvid=346642

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    Thundar wrote:
    Bring rifles with scopes on them. Bring shotguns. Bring handguns in holsters. Go about your business in downtown Pittsburg on 24-25 September.. Be ready for twitter updates. It is your right.

    Will you be there? Are you going to bring your lawyer and bail bondsman with you?

    Ken

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    Thundar wrote:
    Bring rifles with scopes on them. Bring shotguns. Bring handguns in holsters. Go about your business in downtown Pittsburg on 24-25 September.. Be ready for twitter updates. It is your right.
    Huh? Why are you even thinking about taking the bait? as yoda would say, "Playing into their hands you would be."

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    CowboyKen wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Isn't Pittsburgh pre-empted?

    I was under the impression that only Philadelphia could make ordinances.
    Anyplace can "make ordinances." They are all, including Philadelphia, preempted.

    Ken
    Not only does it serve no articulable purpose, even if they could imagine a use, it isn't even enforcible.

    Nice.

    I think crap like that deserves a show.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Isn't Pittsburgh pre-empted? I was under the impression that only Philadelphia could make ordinances.
    As I recall, First Class Cities of Pennsylvania have extraordinary powers.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Isn't Pittsburgh pre-empted? I was under the impression that only Philadelphia could make ordinances.
    As I recall, First Class Cities of Pennsylvania have extraordinary powers.
    This post from PFOA.org:

    you are correct that counties, cities, etc. cannot make their own laws.

    it is actually not a contradiction because the state legislature made the law that you need to have a license to carry in philly. it is part of fthe PA Uniform Firearms Act. you can dowlonad the PA UFA from the BATFE website.

    the URL is:

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaw...nnsylvania.pdf

    the section you want is section 6108 "Carrying firearms on publice streets or public property in Philadelphia"

    techinically, it applies to all "cities of the first class", but philly is the only "city of the first class" in PA.

    also, just fyi, the pre-emption clause (the part that says counties, etc. cannot make their own gun laws) is section 6120 "Limitation on the regulation of fireamrs and ammunition"



    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    Bring rifles with scopes on them. Bring shotguns. Bring handguns in holsters. Go about your business in downtown Pittsburg on 24-25 September.. Be ready for twitter updates. It is your right.
    Huh? Why are you even thinking about taking the bait? as yoda would say, "Playing into their hands you would be."
    You could say this about any ordinance. The point is to take the bait, and put them on the hook when it is all said and done. Isn't that the point of suing those agencies that make false arrests?

    Bait or not, do what ya do. Would we all stop OCing just because someone 'baited' us to? They are irrelevant, that's the point.

    I'll do it right now: "Ha, I bet you can't OC tomorrow!"

    Are you going to NOT do it just to spite me?
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    ixtow wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    Bring rifles with scopes on them. Bring shotguns. Bring handguns in holsters. Go about your business in downtown Pittsburg on 24-25 September.. Be ready for twitter updates. It is your right.
    Huh? Why are you even thinking about taking the bait? as yoda would say, "Playing into their hands you would be."
    You could say this about any ordinance. The point is to take the bait, and put them on the hook when it is all said and done.
    But in this case, the draft "gun ban" is a faux gun ban - under the draft ordinance there is no crime in possessing one of the guns on the Pittsburgh list, unless possessed "with intent to defeat lawful dispersal orders."

    And the bait remains just that - bait to get gun owners to show up at a non-gun event with long guns and "protest" somthing that has nothing to do with gun rights and create some sort of problem.

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    Mike wrote:
    ixtow wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Thundar wrote:
    Bring rifles with scopes on them. Bring shotguns. Bring handguns in holsters. Go about your business in downtown Pittsburg on 24-25 September.. Be ready for twitter updates. It is your right.
    Huh? Why are you even thinking about taking the bait? as yoda would say, "Playing into their hands you would be."
    You could say this about any ordinance. The point is to take the bait, and put them on the hook when it is all said and done.
    But in this case, the draft "gun ban" is a faux gun ban - under the draft ordinance there is no crime in possessing one of the guns on the Pittsburgh list, unless possessed "with intent to defeat lawful dispersal orders."

    And the bait remains just that - bait to get gun owners to show up at a non-gun event with long guns and "protest" somthing that has nothing to do with gun rights and create some sort of problem.
    I agree. But I disagree with the unwritten presumption that the issue ends there.

    They are attempting to imply that the mere presence of a weapon is an impediment to following lawful orders of an Officer.

    Anyone with a gun will be 'ordered' to disperse. Without lawful basis for that order. Presence of a firearm will create an excuse to kill those who do not obey an arbitrary and illegal 'order' to disperse. There will be the same old excuse 'you're alarming other people.' This law is being worded just so, as to bridge the gap of 'reasonable' excuses used to strip citizens of their right to peaceably assemble.

    They wouldn't set up the dominoes without the intention of knocking them down. The purpose I am suggesting, is to be a glued domino. Walk, knowingly, into the bait/trap, and succeed.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    I say let this not be another Kent State Massacre or WTO Seattle ,It dosent matter what this city trys to draft up, the constitution is very clear you can assemble how ever, when ever and wherever you damn well please with as many guns an ammo as you want period.
    In any case I would encourage any person who wants to carry at this as protest go UOC California style with the biggest baddest gun you got lol. So if you get shot by the local PD or by black water you have a suit on your hands.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Bustelo5% wrote:
    I say let this not be another Kent State Massacre or WTO Seattle ,It dosent matter what this city trys to draft up, the constitution is very clear you can assemble how ever, when ever and wherever you damn well please with as many guns an ammo as you want period.
    In any case I would encourage any person who wants to carry at this as protest go UOC California style with the biggest baddest gun you got lol. So if you get shot by the local PD or by black water you have a suit on your hands.
    Does my semi-auto ma deuce count?
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Bustelo5% wrote:
    I say let this not be another Kent State Massacre or WTO Seattle ,It dosent matter what this city trys to draft up, the constitution is very clear you can assemble how ever, when ever and wherever you damn well please with as many guns an ammo as you want period.
    In any case I would encourage any person who wants to carry at this as protest go UOC California style with the biggest baddest gun you got lol. So if you get shot by the local PD or by black water you have a suit on your hands.
    This doesn't even come close to the Kent State circumstances, and if it does, the entire movement would lose all credibility.

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the people who protest "G20" meetings are leftist fruitcakes. When dumpsters are set on fire, cars turned over, windows smashed, was it ever a gun owner (even a liberal one) protesting his right to bear arms? All I've ever seen (on TV) is a bunch of unemployable lunatics with pink hair and bandanas on their faces.

    Not that I agree with globalists, they should be protested at least, if not just thrown right out of the country. They can take the whole UN out of the US and set up shop in Havana where they belong as far as I'm concerned. That said, if the bed wetters in Pittsburg want to be stupid, they should be protested. I just worry that some pink haired fruitcakes (after dying their hair back to normal, IElooking like a human being)might show up with guns and make the rest of us look bad.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    When I was at the TeaParty in downtown Seattle(see photo above) I was Open Carry along many others and others carrying concealed.I was talking with one of the cops behind me in the above pic that said It's not us that concerns them it is these left wing fruitcakes they worry about.Sure enough some left wing nut saw a friend that was there and told himthat he could grab his gun shoot up the crowd and say we did it.My buddygot that on video which showed the cops and thay ran him off.We are in the media portrayed as mobs.But as previously mentioned It's these left wingers that are always burning cars causing massive property damage etc. WTO in Seattle for example.

    There were 2000 plus at the Tea party downtown but the local media didn't show that.Many were with families ,kids etc and by golly there were no incidents at all.ANd it almost brought a tear when all these people started singing the national anthem.I looked around that crowd and thought wow there really are some real Americans left in this country.We made a serious statement ,that we could protest against our own government at that point and didn't have to destroy anything....

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    ixtow wrote:
    I fail to understand the point of this? Mike nailed it, but it could be elaborated upon.

    If the cops ask me to disperse, and I have a gun, am I automatically breaking a law? If their request is bogus and unlawful?

    It looks like a way to target people who know their rights, and make sure only the willing sheeple will ever peaceably assemble.
    Mike and I tend to look at these things from a legal perspective (although one would be wise to remember that Mike has graduated and I am only at the beginning of my second year).

    Having said that, there are a few points I would like to make about this particular topic.

    1) Pittsburgh is subject to Pennsylvania's firearms preemption law. They have tried to tap-dance around this by making the operative clause in the ordinance "if they appear to be trying to disrupt police crowd dispersal." As Mike pointed out, if you disrupt police crowd dispersal activities WITHOUT a gun, you are subject to arrest, so the ordinance is largely symbolic. In order to have standing to challenge this ordinance, you have to be arrested for possessing one of the prohibited firearms AND appearing to be trying to disrupt police crowd dispersal. In other words, you have to commit an actual crime which none of us would ever do.

    2) Mike and I have said it before but it bears repeating here. The rule when given an order by a law enforcement officer is to comply while documenting the misconduct for future legal action (via video or audio recorder, witnesses, and getting the officer's contact info). Arguing legal or constitutional issues on the scene with an officer who is misinformed or acting in bad faith will accomplish nothing other than an arrest that you will have to pay thousands to redress. While these types of cases, when carried through to a proper end, can do a great job of educating law enforcement and paving the way for future open carriers, do not set yourself up to be a test case that you are not prepared emotionally or financially to see all the way through.

    3) I am still wondering why the G20 is the target of such animosity. You should remember that those who normally protest things like the G20 are not the best company while open carrying.

    4) Scoped rifles? WTF? We want to normalize the open carry of firearms in normal life. How about a properly holstered handgun?

    5) Before anyone accuses me otherwise, I absolutely believe in the right to open carry rifles and I believe in the right to do so anywhere that a person may legally be. However, there are logistic and political issues to doing so and I have to ask if this is a good next step in promoting open carry? I don't think so. We have made huge inroads in just a few years and the process of "normalizing" the sight of friends and neighbors going about their business while safely and legally open carrying is progressing nicely. We should be cognizant of this when these types of issues arise.

    Just some thoughts I wanted to share.


    John

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    jpierce wrote:
    1) Pittsburgh is subject to Pennsylvania's firearms preemption law. They have tried to tap-dance around this by making the operative clause in the ordinance "if they appear to be trying to disrupt police crowd dispersal." As Mike pointed out, if you disrupt police crowd dispersal activities WITHOUT a gun, you are subject to arrest, so the ordinance is largely symbolic. In order to have standing to challenge this ordinance, you have to be arrested for possessing one of the prohibited firearms AND appearing to be trying to disrupt police crowd dispersal. In other words, you have to commit an actual crime which none of us would ever do.
    Excellent post John, but would you consider this small change to your first point?

    I believe you would also have standing to challenge the ordinance if you were arrested for violating it, without actually committing a crime.

    Of course it comes down to who gets to decide what "appearing to be...." is, but that is the point of challenging these types of ordinances in the first place. It's a matter of semantics, I know.

    Your point concerning the emotional and financial toll on this endeavor cannot be overstated.

    Just a thought.

    TFred




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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    PrayingForWar wrote:
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the people who protest "G20" meetings are leftist fruitcakes.
    Perhaps, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    3) I am still wondering why the G20 is the target of such animosity. You should remember that those who normally protest things like the G20 are not the best company while open carrying.
    has me wondering as well. :?

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    I'd suggest taht anyone wanting to OC protest the event, which 'our kind of people' generally don't, you shouldn't hang about, simply be seen and be 'passing through.' You don't have to hang around with the rest of the crowd. To simply let the media spot a unicorn should be plenty.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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